The Ultimate Dauphine

[Ross]

Ive been racing my Dauphine for about 2 years now and we have developed it into a competitive and fun race car. The 1400cc engine is developing about 110hp in a car weighing about 650kg with good levels of grip and handling well.

However as with all good car guys I'm never content so am thinking of starting again and developing the Ultimate Dauphine. I have been lucky enough to find an excellent shell locally.

So first question is what engine to use. The sierra block that I am using now a strong engine but limited to about 1450cc. If I went to a R5 Alpine head I might get hp up to 140ish max. The other options I am considering are:
1. Sierra block turboed out of a R5 GT turbo or R11 Turbo (available but not plentiful)
2. R17TS engine - being an alloy block no extra weight but potentially better hp than the seirra motor as will have x flowhead and bigger valves. (however probably more expensive to develop)

A mad frenchman by the name of George Queron developed Dauphines back in the 60s and 70s. You can see a good selection of them on www.dauphstock.org under the proto page. His cars developed between 140 and 170hp and weight was down to about 550kg.

Queron published a "how to" series of articles back in 77 or 78 I think, in a french magazine called Enchapment. I have contacted the mag but they no longer have copies of the articles.

So second question is does anyone have copies of these articles or could suggest where I could get them from.

I have been able to get 3 articles from another french mag called Gazoline. These articles cover the restoration of a Dauphine Queron. If anyone is interested I am having them translated at the moment and would be happy to e-mail.

Any suggestions would be greatfully recieved including the phone number of a good psychiatrist.

Ross

[Simon]

Probably another place to enquire is Ferry Developments in France. They produce a 1550cc kit for the 5 Alpine block, and may have ideas and info on modifications.

www.ferrydev.com


Another link I was recently sent was for a CD rom that Gazoline magazine hvve complied in France, it is for a Dauphine G they have totally restored for competition purposes, but it would appear to be the standard Ventoux motor rather than something like a Dauphine Maxi Turbo. However it may be a useful reference for some ideas.

http://gazoline.net/article.pcgi?id_article=375


Another site that may be able to help with the Echappement articles would be an enquiry through the 8 Gordini 1134 forum.

http://amicale1134.r8gordini.com/

[Ross]

Thanks for the links Simon

The Ferry name seems to come up a lot re performance Renaults

Do you know anyone who has imported any of his parts?

Ross

[Simon]

No, but I have just heard vague statements about the Ferry liners being thicker than the Mecaparts liners, especially in the big bore versions therefore being less subject to distortion. I'm currently running Mecaparts liners in my 8, and apart from the odd unassociated carby tuning problem, it seems to be running fine so far.

[Damien Gardner]

Hi Ross, I'm glad to see that i'm not the only Sick Puppie, when it comes to Renaults. What Gearbox are you using? The 16TS engine Supercharged with Holley 350 Carby, and an appropriate Cam, is good for 145 eng hp, I've installed Holden Camira EFI, but not had it Dynoed yet.
Best of luck with it.

[Ross]

Hi Damien
At the moment a standard R10 gearbox
However I am in the final stages of constructing a box with 16ts internals and diff in R10 housing. We have had to made special ali spacers for the diff bearing cups as the 16 diff is wider than a 10 diff and respline the universal joints to accept the 16 output shafts.
The other stoke of luck I had resently was Ive found a 16TX 5 speed manual box so will eventually get that in the Dauphine.
Sounds like you would recommend the 16ts engine. Have you had any reliability problems?

Ross

[Damien Gardner]

No engine problems, they're bullet proof, completely standard apart from a Wade 154B Cam. The only probs have been Fuel surge and a broken gearbox, well not exactly the g/box, it broke the Spider gear pivot shaft in half, the half that wasn't roll pinned in, fell into the Crown wheel & pinion jamming the whole box.
I have fitted a R17 timing cover & drive the supercharger via a modified pulley off the crank. Standard Toyota pulleys, give 10lb boost at 5000rpm.

Have a look at my web site it shows all the mods i've done.

[Craig]

Ross, firstly, thanks for the article for the magazine re Targa NZ.

I'm not sure about the 5 GT Turbo option you mentioned. I know Renault keep making engines available for a long time. Most if not all parts are available still. In the end though, the Sierra block used in the 5 GT Turbo is not that different from any other Sierra block and you could probably build up a similar engine design, possibly even using a later Twingo block, good crank, a nice set of liners and pistons from the UK.. Guys in the UK have been known to get over 300hp from their GT Turbo engines with the right modifications, not sure of rally reliability, possibly 250 would be more reliable for your needs. You can even order a complete engine from some 3rd party tuners. Then again.. there is the 16 engine option... and many others people could think of.

[Simon]

I like the idea of the Sierra block too, mostly as Craig says because you can still get new unfatigued bits for it, and also because it is sort of a sentimental link between the old and new Renault's.

My contribution to wasting bandspace and increasing my posts score :-)

[alan moore]

I have a registered 4CV with a fairly modified 16TS in it, and had an R8 in similar tune some years ago that I ran at hillclimbs etc.
I think the use of R5 GT Turbo parts, perhaps in your block if necessary, would work out the cheapest and easiest way to increase performance as you already have a set up to mount the Sierra style motor.
180 Hp is reasonably attainable with minor mods, certainly enough to be interesting in the Dauphine, with more Hp just a matter of boost, that these motors seem to accept easily.
Even 150Hp out of a 16TS is a fair effort. As much as I love the TS, I can appreciate the ease with which turbos increase perfomance.

[Haakon]

13B twin turbo?

[Ross]

Thanks all for the replies

Sounds like forced induction is the favoured option.

Although for a rally car do you think the turbo lag in a small engine would be a problem? I was reading that article comparing the A110 and the Lotus Europa and they were saying the A110 with the 1600 motor had instant response.

Maybe its just that I havent had much to do with turbos/superchargers. They certainly are cheap hp

Ross

[Damien Gardner]

The early problems with Turbo lag, is not really significant these days with waste gating, exhaust recirculation etc, where as the Supercharger has no lag.
Probably a good idea to have a chat with a Turbo specialist, or Hot 4's workshop, and pick their brains. Hope this helps.

[Ray Bell]

As I detailed here once before, the 16TS engine I had in my Clubman way back in 1973 had about 185bhp.

No forced induction, no oversize valves, just a good cam (A6 Cosworth), slightly altered advance curve, 48mm Dellortos (or Webers), SR454 Repco pistons (you can do better today, but the crown of these is essential, they were developed by Repco for the Renault Australia rally Gordinis), I think the crank was tuftrided and the rods shot peened.

No problems... while all my competitors were having endless problems with Fords and Corollas, I was just driving and driving the thing.

Do not go for Gordini pistons.

[Craig]

Well I have heard of 25,000 pound 5 GT Turbo engines.... but I guess you probably dont want to spend that much hehe.

Seriously.. the 5 GT Turbo Phase II engine has 120 hp standard. With some very minor tweaks (strapped intercooler, different compressor wheel, eg T25 in T20 casing, decent set of plugs, leads, free flow filters, higher boost) you are looking at 170-190 hp without need for piston, rod or crankshaft changes.

With my setup, I can hear the compressor spinning up very early on and get effects from 2000rpm onwards.

Without looking under the bonnet of the Dauphine, its easy to say going for a GT Turbo setup will require a few things.. firstly, clean cool airflow to air ram filter (you look at +7hp with a J&R one and a decent airflow), you need airflow through the intercooler and you need to have if possible a decent fan blowing on the fuel pipes and carby to reduce fuel evaporation when stopped as the 5GTT Phase II added. Standard boost was just under 10psi I think, running at 14-15 is within the capabilites of the standard engine, 20 will give you over 220hp if everything else is correct and my memory is ok . Max boost measured so far on a GT Turbo engine that I have read about is 50psi, with an output of 350bhp.

Of course, nothing can be up the front because the longer the pipes, the higher the lag will be. Not sure of length of exhaust pipes.. I think the lack of backpressure due to shorter pipes may have an effect, although I have a 2.5" straight through exhaust and muffler.

As for power output in the rear... you might have to be more careful about it swapping ends. Lets just say that a GT Turbo engine will easily spin the wheels when already doing 100km/h if you have enough power there. Not sure if the R10 box can handle that though.

[Renault17]

Hey Ross,
if the 5gt turbo bits and pieces are too hard to come by - then 18/fuego turbos are thick on the ground here (relatively!) so if you are already considering a 1565cc motor froma 17- these are the same block /head essentially so dimensionally they would fit.

Personally, I feel that with a few good performance parts on a fuego/18 turbo motor you can get quite good hp- whilst still retaining the relatively inexpensive major components- i.e pistons valves etc
As with building any motor- if you have endless supplies of money anything can be made to go fast....

Mine with 2 3/4" exhaust, flowed (thermostat removed) and strapped intercooler and adjustable boost goes quite well. Impediments to further fun-hp are;

-intercooler (needs to be bigger)
-carb (single choke solex) needs to be replaced with a carb off a Lancia Delta Integrale I believe
-computer- above about13-14psi I gather it starts to throw wobblies, an aftermarket one would be quite expensive..
-turbo, a correctly sized turbo will ensure you don't get too much lag- an issue with a race car of course. As an aside when I was looking at getting a hybrid turbo made for mine, the guy reckoned he had never seen a t3 that small!

For what you are after perhaps a supercharger like Damien is talking about is more suitable? You should come and have a cane in my 18 turbo to make an opinion if you like. Sounds awesome either way, can't wait to see it!

Cheers Ben

[frogs4ever]

Originally Posted by Ray Bell

As I detailed here once before, the 16TS engine I had in my Clubman way back in 1973 had about 185bhp.

No forced induction, no oversize valves ......

I'm not as surprised as some here may be. Anyone who has lifted the head on one of these motors, unmodified, would have to be impressed by the size of the valves, the beautiful porting, and the clever little twin rocker shaft system with the minature pushrods leading to tappets which are located IN THE CYLINDER HEAD, all held in check by neat little double valve springs. Lovely compact block to. And for a motor with such an enviable reputation for durability, it's amazingly light in weight. Clearly the designers of this engine had much bigger things in mind for it than the ultra flexible 62 Kw form found in the standard R16TS.

[DTwo]

Originally Posted by frogs4ever

Clearly the designers of this engine had much bigger things in mind for it than the ultra flexible 62 Kw form found in the standard R16TS.

It was a remarkably muscular 62kw too

I surprised plenty of people in my 16 and 16ts'd 12

[alpinesau]

Ray,
Can you please explain why you say "do not go for Gordini pistons" in a 16TS engine.
Would anyone at ACL still recognise SR454 pistons( i.e would they still be available)?

Robert

[Ross]

Now Im really confused, all these options sound so good.

Ray would you mind giving me a few more details on the 16TS motor you developed. How much head modifications (ie porting, valve springs etc) did you do to get 185hp. I presume you had a custom set of extractors. What bore size did you use? What compression ratio? I have a couple of 17TS motors lying around and a set of inlet manifols for 45 sidedrafts so it would be an obvious choice for me to go that way.

Turbo is still an option (thanks Craig and Ben) but I would love to give those Anglias in the Targa a good run for their money using a similar powerplant, ie 1600 n/a pushrod 1960s engine.

Ross