Front struts for 504 - options?

Binky

Binky

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Fellow Frogger
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Hi all,

As some of you know, I'm in the process of shoe horning a factory 505 turbo (N9te) engine and BA10/5 gearbox into a 1970 504. After stripping out the engine bay and giving it a spruce-up, I'm ready to re install the front suspension.

I'm just wondering (my curiosity piqued by Peujohn's blog) about front strut options.

...You see, I have a nice set of front struts from a 1994 505 wagon STi kicking around, and I'm thinking they are probably a little stiffer (springs) which might be good for the bigger engine. In addition, I'm thinking (given what I've read in Peujohn's blog) that the stub axles may provide me with that desireable extra camber. I'm also thinking that they might provide better front calipers and rotors.

If I were to use these, would I still be able to use the standard 504 lower control arms and castor arms, or should I use the lower control arms and castor arms from the STi wagon? Or it it a bad idea alltogether?

Thoughts?

...just an idea...

:cheers: Binky
 
Binky said:
Hi all,

As some of you know, I'm in the process of shoe horning a factory 505 turbo (N9te) engine and BA10/5 gearbox into a 1970 504. After stripping out the engine bay and giving it a spruce-up, I'm ready to re install the front suspension.

I'm just wondering (my curiosity piqued by Peujohn's blog) about front strut options.

...You see, I have a nice set of front struts from a 1994 505 wagon STi kicking around, and I'm thinking they are probably a little stiffer (springs) which might be good for the bigger engine. In addition, I'm thinking (given what I've read in Peujohn's blog) that the stub axles may provide me with that desireable extra camber. I'm also thinking that they might provide better front calipers and rotors.

If I were to use these, would I still be able to use the standard 504 lower control arms and castor arms, or should I use the lower control arms and castor arms from the STi wagon? Or it it a bad idea alltogether?

Thoughts?

...just an idea...

:cheers: Binky
Click to expand...

You can't use the usual 504 lower control arms as the later 505 ones are screw in.
The late 505 struts with 505 arms in a 504 will give you a hell of a lot of negative camber (double whammy, struts and arms as the strut towers are closer together in the 504 and 604 compared to 505), John got around this by fitting late 504 wagon arms which are also screw in, this is the best set up.
Graham
Graham
 
And you will have to get your brake lines reflaired to match the later brakes calipers

OR fit a dual master cylinder and later front lines and reflair the line to the rear brakes

OR simply switch the early RH caliper to the LH side (LH to RH as well ) and this will resolve the issue of early brake calipers behind the strut and later ones forward of the strut.
 
Thanos said:
It is a very good idea. Change the entire front end including the steering rack.
Click to expand...

Thanks Thanos, I just wasn't sure if there was any difference between the sedan and wagon front struts, but I guess not. :)
Unfortunately I don't have the steering rack, but I'd like to avoid power steering if I can...


GRAHAM WALLIS said:
You can't use the usual 504 lower control arms as the later 505 ones are screw in.
The late 505 struts with 505 arms in a 504 will give you a hell of a lot of negative camber (double whammy, struts and arms as the strut towers are closer together in the 504 and 604 compared to 505), John got around this by fitting late 504 wagon arms which are also screw in, this is the best set up.
Graham
Graham
Click to expand...

Ah yes, those mythical "hen's teeth"!!! Could one get a machinist to convert the "screw in" type to the earlier type? - just an idea. Otherwise, perhaps these LCA's are easily sourced from somewhere like Argentina?

Bob D said:
And you will have to get your brake lines reflaired to match the later brakes calipers

OR fit a dual master cylinder and later front lines and reflair the line to the rear brakes

OR simply switch the early RH caliper to the LH side (LH to RH as well ) and this will resolve the issue of early brake calipers behind the strut and later ones forward of the strut.
Click to expand...

Couldn't I just get new hoses made to match each respective end? I.e. 504 on the master cylinder side, and 505 at the caliper?

Also (and I know this is probably just downright silly:blackeye:) has anyone thought about or tried to mount both calipers at the front, i.e. one fore and one aft?


:cheers:Binky
 
Binky said:
Couldn't I just get new hoses made to match each respective end? I.e. 504 on the master cylinder side, and 505 at the caliper?

Also (and I know this is probably just downright silly:blackeye:) has anyone thought about or tried to mount both calipers at the front, i.e. one fore and one aft?


:cheers:Binky
Click to expand...

just use a late 504 master cylinder and the brake lines from a 505 or late 504

or just use the early 504 calipers and do as suggested and swap them left to right and not worry about the lines

there isn't enough room nor mounting to have both calipers at once :D
 
Binky said:
Actually, now I think about it, couldn't I alter the camber by having the crossmember mounts altered?
Click to expand...

go to pedders and ask to have a look through their catalogue and see if you can find a camber adjuster that will fit within the 504 cross member
 
Binky said:
You see, I have a nice set of front struts from a 1994 505 wagon STi kicking around
Click to expand...

You mean a 1984 STI wagon?

Binky said:
Thanks Thanos, I just wasn't sure if there was any difference between the sedan and wagon front struts, but I guess not. :)
Unfortunately I don't have the steering rack, but I'd like to avoid power steering if I can...
Click to expand...

Pretty sure sedan and wagon struts are the same. Paris Jansen fitted wagon struts to his 504.

Why do you want to avoid power steering? You might need it to get that fish-tailing smartly back in line. Seriously, power steering on a 504 is a beautiful thing.

Binky said:
Ah yes, those mythical "hen's teeth"!!! Could one get a machinist to convert the "screw in" type to the earlier type? - just an idea. Otherwise, perhaps these LCA's are easily sourced from somewhere like Argentina?
Click to expand...

I have tried for years to get hold of a set of those arms from overseas somewhere without any luck. Sure they are there, but how do you get them? Then Bob D told me they were fitted to 1983 504 wagons (I always thought they were fitted to 504s built from 1984 on) and I found a set at Pugwreck, 10 minutes from where I live!

Modifying the crossmember where the inside ends of the LCAs are located is possible, but I am not suggesting this to you. :) Maybe if you have a crossmember handy, take it to a skilled machinist and tell him what you require and see what he says!
 
If you are willing to use a machinist, the most versatile option is to convert the LCA's with uniball joints. Not a huge, expensive job and offers a lot of adjustability. I am attaching a photo, it should be self explanatory to a machinist. As for a 505 steering rack, we use them without assistance, nice direct and quick steering to go with your strong engine.
 

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  • camber bar modified with uniball.jpg
    camber bar modified with uniball.jpg
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Thanos, what do you think is ideal camber for road use?

Also on this subject. New DeCarbon strut inserts and rear shocks are available on Ebay France. I have been told that these are excellent for 504s. Does anyone have any experience with these? Would new DeCarbons be as good as they used to be?
 
peujohn said:
Thanos, what do you think is ideal camber for road use?

Also on this subject. New DeCarbon strut inserts and rear shocks are available on Ebay France. I have been told that these are excellent for 504s. Does anyone have any experience with these? Would new DeCarbons be as good as they used to be?
Click to expand...

Hi, we have been using De carbons in our rally cars for years, including on the red Centre to Gold Coast.

We have found them excellent, good damping but still subtle and seem to last well. Our early ones, mid 1980s into the 1990s (for the Australian Safari etc) were special "safari" spec. The ones we are using now were new, old stock out of the UK so I have no idea whether existing products would be of the same standard and like other brands they come in a few different grades.

Cheers

Jim
 
pug303 said:
Hi, we have been using De carbons in our rally cars for years...
Click to expand...

So have we, they all failed in short order. It turns out the Americans (according to Brian Holm) had the same experience.

I prefer -1.5 degrees camber, both front and rear for road use, but even -3 degrees (using the 505 struts) was acceptable.
 
Thanos, different kinds of rally cars I guess. Ours are relatively soft in the suspension and run more as "trials" cars, although the ones we had years ago for the Australian Safari must have been something good?

Cheers

Jim
 
pug303 said:
Hi, we have been using De carbons in our rally cars for years, including on the red Centre to Gold Coast.

We have found them excellent, good damping but still subtle and seem to last well. Our early ones, mid 1980s into the 1990s (for the Australian Safari etc) were special "safari" spec. The ones we are using now were new, old stock out of the UK so I have no idea whether existing products would be of the same standard and like other brands they come in a few different grades.

Cheers

Jim
Click to expand...

The standard de carbon rears are junk, way too soft.
The Safari rears were excellent but too stiff to begin with, it took a holiday trip, fully laden to Fraser Island to get them working properly! In those days you could drive your 2wd onto the Island.
Standard fronts OK but not up to rallying, I had a few fail.
Graham
 
pug303 said:
We've just been lucky I guess.

Cheers

Jim
Click to expand...

To elaborate I think anything other than standard 505 GTi rear shocks in the rear of a 504/505 is not worthwhile even the original 504 and 505 GR shockers, the de Carbons are as good as any other aftermarket shock.
The fronts actually work very well but I did have a failure or two. When this happens the shocker goes to full extension making the car sit very high at that corner!
Graham
 
peujohn said:
You mean a 1984 STI wagon?



Pretty sure sedan and wagon struts are the same. Paris Jansen fitted wagon struts to his 504.

Why do you want to avoid power steering? You might need it to get that fish-tailing smartly back in line. Seriously, power steering on a 504 is a beautiful thing.



I have tried for years to get hold of a set of those arms from overseas somewhere without any luck. Sure they are there, but how do you get them? Then Bob D told me they were fitted to 1983 504 wagons (I always thought they were fitted to 504s built from 1984 on) and I found a set at Pugwreck, 10 minutes from where I live!

Modifying the crossmember where the inside ends of the LCAs are located is possible, but I am not suggesting this to you. :) Maybe if you have a crossmember handy, take it to a skilled machinist and tell him what you require and see what he says!
Click to expand...

Thanos said:
If you are willing to use a machinist, the most versatile option is to convert the LCA's with uniball joints. Not a huge, expensive job and offers a lot of adjustability. I am attaching a photo, it should be self explanatory to a machinist. As for a 505 steering rack, we use them without assistance, nice direct and quick steering to go with your strong engine.
Click to expand...

peujohn said:
Thanos, what do you think is ideal camber for road use?

Also on this subject. New DeCarbon strut inserts and rear shocks are available on Ebay France. I have been told that these are excellent for 504s. Does anyone have any experience with these? Would new DeCarbons be as good as they used to be?
Click to expand...

Thanos said:
So have we, they all failed in short order. It turns out the Americans (according to Brian Holm) had the same experience.

I prefer -1.5 degrees camber, both front and rear for road use, but even -3 degrees (using the 505 struts) was acceptable.
Click to expand...

Thanks everyone for their input :)

Peujohn. No, I mean a 1994 STi wagon.

I've driven one of Paris' 504's with power steering and I felt it was too twitchy (too much like a BMW - not enough like a Peugeot :tongue:). It works well in a 505 and in the later 504s which had heavier steering (I don't know why:confused:) But the earlier 504's feel great with no power steering. - I guess it has something to do with the geometery:confused: I think a boss kit with a slightly smaller steering wheel and heavier steering would be better for the occasional club event or enthusiastic drive through a windy segment of road...

Thanks for the tip! I'll get on to PugWreck!!!

I don't think that modifying the crossmember is the best option either, but I'm just putting out feelers for ideas :)

Thanos. Thanks for the picture :) I've been discussing the possibility of camber adjustment with my dad and he has told me that GTA 105 Alfas had such a thing. I'm guessing it's like what you have... I think I'll look into that option. Given the people I know, I don't think that would be a difficult modification to achieve...

I've been told by a few people that Konis are overrated, and that DeCarbons are better... sounds like I'll have to let personal experience decide...

After reading many an AF thread (before and after the AF crash) it seems that 1.5 negative camber is the most desireable recipe D
 
Binky said:
...I've been told by a few people that Konis are overrated, and that DeCarbons are better...
Click to expand...

There are some low-end Konis that are almost as bad as DeCarbons. The main problem is with the DeCarbon strut inserts, the bottom comes off quite easily. If your STi struts have the oil inserts you should look into reconditioning them. Blistein fronts are also available online in the UK for the 504 and 505 at a fairly reasonable price (google is your friend). For the rears you can try to match Toyota Hilux fronts, one of the model years is a complete match and Bilsteins are also available for that model.
 
Thanos said:
There are some low-end Konis that are almost as bad as DeCarbons. The main problem is with the DeCarbon strut inserts, the bottom comes off quite easily. If your STi struts have the oil inserts you should look into reconditioning them. Blistein fronts are also available online in the UK for the 504 and 505 at a fairly reasonable price (google is your friend). For the rears you can try to match Toyota Hilux fronts, one of the model years is a complete match and Bilsteins are also available for that model.
Click to expand...


I am presently trying to get a very good rally set up for the 505 that I'm building up.
I've talked to Murray Coote, the guru for rally suspension in this country (and a Peugeot enhusiast!) but there are some problems with fitment to the rear of Peugeots, although Andy (Rally) has produced something which is effective.

I've taken a 505 front strut, original Peugeot, to Top Perfomance the Koni agents, to see whether they can produce a wet leg strut based on this. I don't think there is any point in trying to directly modify the Peugeot struts due to lack of both knowledge and parts in this country, whereas Top Performance are building competition shocks with Koni components all the time.
Yes, the Hi Lux shockers in the rear seem to be the way to go.

I'm not committing to this but Top Perfomance are close to home and I've known the owner for a while so it should be interesting to see what is possible.

Any other suggestions welcome.

For motorsport definitely go for the power steering, less effort to turn the wheel means more ability left over to decide when to turn it!

Graham
 
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