C5 Flap motors

Hope this is of some help here, I've only ever heard of the passenger side failing...

This is the left hand side (access via the glovebox)
The reduction motor for distribution flaps = 2
The reduction motor for mixing flaps = 3

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This is the right hand side (access remove the cover under the dash in the RH foot well and the cover that's covering where the steering column goes through and look behind the dash for the motor)
The reduction motor for distribution flaps = 4
The reduction motor for mixing flaps = 6

attachment.php


Cheers
Chris
 

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David Cavanagh said:
We are wrecking a couple of C5's if there's anything you need.
Click to expand...

Thanks David, that's good to know...

The guy with the problem is in Sri Lanka, and is a member here, I'll make him aware that you may be able to help.

He's still not fully diagnosed the problem, so if anyone has any tips please post here. :wink2:

Cheers
Chris
 
C5 flap motors

Hi,:):),
I did try to reply on the UK site but !!//??
I do have an air control/ conditioning unit that is out of the car, from a wreck. I can look at some things if you wish. Not interested in selling things so go to David if you wish to do that. It is a very large size!! You would have to dismantle a lot of the dash etc to get it out I would think:disappr:

It is not so easy to see how the air travels through it either, from the outside. The plastic can be moulded to any shape and they seem to have chosen to do something complicated :rolleyes:
The LHS upper motor seem to be the upper temp control which has a triple flap which rotates in line with the shaft. I think the center flap is cold and the outer flaps on each side are hot. As the shaft turns the center closes and the others open etc. There is a rod connected inside which also operates another internal flap for the cold which is hard to see.
The LHS lower motor controls the air to the feet that side. It is the one which fails and this one has a cracked plastic boss. I have repaired this in my own cars unit by the glue method. Works OK.
The RHS lower motor does the air to the feet on the drivers side in a similar manner to the other. However it is not close to the heater pipes so it survives OK.
There is another different type of motor higher up on the RHS which controls the outside/inside air. It has a plastic gear segment on it which meshes with the segments on the two flap shafts.

There are at least three thermistors which plug into various places. These, I guess are providing feedback to the computer. :clown:

I would do a reset first if I were you:D Pull the battery lead off for a minute ( with everything turned off ), See if that fixes anything. I believe the computer sometimes get its signals mixed and the software cannot sort it out. :joker: Note there is some resetting recommended for the windows and the throttle position after this also.
Cheers Jaahn
 
It's presumably the dual zone system so should have a mixer motor either side and the same problem could occur on the RHS as left. It's rare to have problems other than a mixer motor or fan module/burnt plug. I think he says the socket where the peg on the motor engages is damaged, so that's most likely his problem. They don't respond instantly, so it's easy to think the thing is not working. The mixer motors themselves rarely fail, but the cars originally came with a motor with a short peg and the part it engages into wears. The replacement motor will have a longer peg or you can double the length of the original peg to about an inch so it engages again. Depends on how you value your time!
 
Hi all

Didn't realize my problem was being discussed so actively here :)

David Cavanagh said:
We are wrecking a couple of C5's if there's anything you need.
Click to expand...
Thanks; I've sent you an email about some other stuff I'm looking for; and perhaps you could help me once I figure out what needs to be replaced.

jaahn said:
The LHS upper motor seem to be the upper temp control which has a triple flap which rotates in line with the shaft. I think the center flap is cold and the outer flaps on each side are hot. As the shaft turns the center closes and the others open etc. There is a rod connected inside which also operates another internal flap for the cold which is hard to see.
The LHS lower motor controls the air to the feet that side. It is the one which fails and this one has a cracked plastic boss. I have repaired this in my own cars unit by the glue method. Works OK.
The RHS lower motor does the air to the feet on the drivers side in a similar manner to the other. However it is not close to the heater pipes so it survives OK.
There is another different type of motor higher up on the RHS which controls the outside/inside air. It has a plastic gear segment on it which meshes with the segments on the two flap shafts.
Click to expand...
Thanks for detailed observations

Could the LHS upper motor be the one that determines where air flows into (feet, face, windscreen or some combination thereof) - because the setting for that is common to driver/passenger?

You have also observed that it is the left hand side that fails (proximity of heater pipes) and this is also borne out by searches (C5-L list, citroen-owners-club) where I find many instances of problems on passenger side but never found anyone with the issue on the driver side.

jaahn said:
There are at least three thermistors which plug into various places. These, I guess are providing feedback to the computer. :clown:
Click to expand...
one of the reasons I'm suspecting the sensors is that, in the limited situations where the driver side does blow cold, most are when the car is starting from ambient temperature. (i.e. once the AC has been running for a while, it's rare to blow cold from driver side)

jaahn said:
I would do a reset first if I were you:D Pull the battery lead off for a minute ( with everything turned off ), See if that fixes anything. I believe the computer sometimes get its signals mixed and the software cannot sort it out.
Click to expand...
tried that, but no difference :(


David S said:
It's presumably the dual zone system so should have a mixer motor either side and the same problem could occur on the RHS as left. It's rare to have problems other than a mixer motor or fan module/burnt plug. I think he says the socket where the peg on the motor engages is damaged, so that's most likely his problem. They don't respond instantly, so it's easy to think the thing is not working. The mixer motors themselves rarely fail, but the cars originally came with a motor with a short peg and the part it engages into wears. The replacement motor will have a longer peg or you can double the length of the original peg to about an inch so it engages again. Depends on how you value your time!
Click to expand...
yes, it's the dual zone system. although the problem could occur on either side, I seem to be the first (do I get a prize?) to have the problem on the driver side!
btw does the plug to the resistor pack tend to burn out (I have a melted plug, and it's been wired in somehow by a previous owner).
anyway, I don't know yet if the socket is damaged or not; I guess the only way to know for sure is to open it up - but as it will take some weeks for me to get replacement parts down (from UK or Aussie) I'm hoping I can do it with only one disassembly - i.e. source replacement parts before opening it up (wishful thinking perhaps!)

thanks all!
/Sifaan
 
update; I looked through some of my old downloads and I found couple of docs that may explain how the climate control works (not necessarily the airflow and the motors, but how the other sensors play a role). unfortunately they are in French. can someone help translate the relevant bits?
The docs are here and here.

I have a few more docs that were in the download, I'll upload them as well in case they are of use to somebody.
 
sifaan said:
update; I looked through some of my old downloads and I found couple of docs that may explain how the climate control works (not necessarily the airflow and the motors, but how the other sensors play a role). unfortunately they are in French. can someone help translate the relevant bits?
The docs are here and here.

I have a few more docs that were in the download, I'll upload them as well in case they are of use to somebody.
Click to expand...

Hi sifaan, good to see you over here :wink2:

I have at home the C5 electrical diagrams and descriptions in English (hard copy), I'll have a look tonight and if it covers yours syptoms I'll scan and post here or if you can supply an email address via PM that might be better (scans are going to be big files). It's just after mid-day here so I won't be home for another 6 hours...

Cheers
Chris
 
sifaan said:
update; I looked through some of my old downloads and I found couple of docs that may explain how the climate control works (not necessarily the airflow and the motors, but how the other sensors play a role). unfortunately they are in French. can someone help translate the relevant bits?
The docs are here and here.

I have a few more docs that were in the download, I'll upload them as well in case they are of use to somebody.
Click to expand...

GreenBlood said:
Hi sifaan, good to see you over here :wink2:

I have at home the C5 electrical diagrams and descriptions in English (hard copy), I'll have a look tonight and if it covers yours symptoms I'll scan and post here or if you can supply an email address via PM that might be better (scans are going to be big files). It's just after mid-day here so I won't be home for another 6 hours...

Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...

...back to your links sifaan, I had a look at the diagrams I have 116 pages and not a mention of aircon or heaters :confused:

So, still looking for French - English translations of your documents...

Cheers
Chris
 
GreenBlood said:
This is the right hand side (access remove the cover under the dash in the RH foot well and the cover that's covering where the steering column goes through and look behind the dash for the motor)
The reduction motor for distribution flaps = 4
The reduction motor for mixing flaps = 6

attachment.php


Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...

Hi Chris
Ended up taking apart as much of the dashboard as I dared (don't feel comfortable removing airbags, hence steering wheel, column, and main fascia are still in place). On the driver side I removed the cover above the pedals (that has the footwell light - the first item you refer to?), the soundproofing material (which covers the heater resistor pack; I think the second item you refer to) and the trim that is next to it (removed floor center console and there's a torx screw that's accessible). But I can't see hide nor hair of the motors on the evaporator housing.
should I be able to without removing the fascia?

looking through where the center console used to be, I can see the motor on the passenger side (helps that light comes in from where the glovebox used to be) but cannot see anything on the driver side. tried feeling my way about, but couldn't detect a motor that would be symmetric to the passenger side one.

here's where I'm at (pic taken with camera where the break pedal would be (pedal pushed in):
http://citroen.almostunreal.org/under_driver_footwell.JPG

the red and black wires leading to the right are going to the resistor pack. the bunch of wires going to the middle left may well include the motor, but that seems to be well and truly behind the fascia?

btw I found (I think in SEDRE, but can't seem to find the doc now) that Lexia can read a quite extensive list of info on the climate control, so it could still be worthwhile for me to hook it up and see before getting the dashboard opened up.
Edit: the info was in a french training doc (that I got from C5-L yahoogroup archive) that was translated using a online translation tool... for what it's worth, the files here.
the fault codes/diagnostic info is page 122-123 in the document (128-129 in the pdf numbering)
 
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Right side flap motor

Hi sifaan
The right side motor is hidden up high behind that blue connector block. you should be able to see the two forward screws but not the upper back one, it's behind the wiring tube coming down from top right side of the console to be level with the dash bottom. It is not removable, it being fuse welded to the dash. Hope that helps. :cheers:
 
shanadoo said:
Hi sifaan
The right side motor is hidden up high behind that blue connector block. you should be able to see the two forward screws but not the upper back one, it's behind the wiring tube coming down from top right side of the console to be level with the dash bottom. It is not removable, it being fuse welded to the dash. Hope that helps. :cheers:
Click to expand...

eh..? did you mean the motor is not removable? (I thought it would be secured by 3 screws like the passenger side motor?)

anyway, I put my hand in and I can feel something that is probably the motor - I think it's lower and a little to the front of the car than the passenger side motor (which was why I didn't find it before I guess - was expecting it to be symmetrical). Can't see it yet and imagine I wouldn't be able to unless the fascia came off :(
 
The tube carying the wiring. {a hard plastic affair} is welded to the dash, visible through where the radio fits. There are two motors on each side, Right upper is the dificult one with the rearward screw behind the tube I'm talking about. It's a bitch. A little tip, if you remove this motor, reconnect the wiring plug before trying to refit. :cheers: and good luck.
 
Update - took the car in to the (former) Citroen agents in Sri Lanka... hooked up pressure gauges to the AC system and...

there is a residual pressure of about 150 PSI; when the car is first started up, pressure rises to 250-270 range, then reduces gradually until ~200 PSI. If we switch off the engine and restart, pressure again rises to 250ish and then reduces.

The diagnosis from the garage is that there is a problem with the compressor. It might be worthwhile to remove the compressor and oil it (this seems to somehow be different from oiling in the refrigerant line) but they are not sure if that would solve the problem. Also the labour charge for doing that (evacuate gas, remove compressor, regas) might be wasted if it turns out that there is a problem in the compressor. So they recommend to take it to a garage specializing in ACs (and who could also fix the compressor once they remove it, in case that is a viable option).

Does anyone have any other ideas what could be wrong? e.g. something really messed up with the temperature sensors which results in the ECU switching off the compressor? but then I imagine it would fluctuate back and forth sharply between 150 and 250 PSI rather than decrease gradually? also it should be visible that the AC clutch is disengaged?

If it is a problem with the compressor, is it worthwhile investigating the repair option or am I going to have more peace of mind with a replacement?

Thanks
 
sifaan said:
Update - took the car in to the (former) Citroen agents in Sri Lanka... hooked up pressure gauges to the AC system and...

there is a residual pressure of about 150 PSI; when the car is first started up, pressure rises to 250-270 range, then reduces gradually until ~200 PSI. If we switch off the engine and restart, pressure again rises to 250ish and then reduces.

The diagnosis from the garage is that there is a problem with the compressor. It might be worthwhile to remove the compressor and oil it (this seems to somehow be different from oiling in the refrigerant line) but they are not sure if that would solve the problem. Also the labour charge for doing that (evacuate gas, remove compressor, regas) might be wasted if it turns out that there is a problem in the compressor. So they recommend to take it to a garage specializing in ACs (and who could also fix the compressor once they remove it, in case that is a viable option).

Does anyone have any other ideas what could be wrong? e.g. something really messed up with the temperature sensors which results in the ECU switching off the compressor? but then I imagine it would fluctuate back and forth sharply between 150 and 250 PSI rather than decrease gradually? also it should be visible that the AC clutch is disengaged?

If it is a problem with the compressor, is it worthwhile investigating the repair option or am I going to have more peace of mind with a replacement?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Check that your radiator fan is coming on with the aircon on, or even working at all...

Cheers
Chris
 
GreenBlood said:
Check that your radiator fan is coming on with the aircon on, or even working at all...

Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...
well, given that my engine is now at operating temperature, the fan runs on low speed when idling even without the AC on.
However, when I switch the AC on, there is a clunk as the clutch engages (and can visually see it move) and the fan switches to high speed.
When I switch it off, the clutch disengages and the fan returns to slow speed.

even when the pressure drops gradually, the compressor clutch is engaged - that's why I'm inclined to think it's not being switched off by the ECU. However to be really sure I'll have to hook it on to a lexia. At the moment have arranged with the AC guys (who fixed the clutch) to take a look at it tomorrow...
 
sifaan said:
well, given that my engine is now at operating temperature, the fan runs on low speed when idling even without the AC on.
However, when I switch the AC on, there is a clunk as the clutch engages (and can visually see it move) and the fan switches to high speed.
When I switch it off, the clutch disengages and the fan returns to slow speed.

even when the pressure drops gradually, the compressor clutch is engaged - that's why I'm inclined to think it's not being switched off by the ECU. However to be really sure I'll have to hook it on to a lexia. At the moment have arranged with the AC guys (who fixed the clutch) to take a look at it tomorrow...
Click to expand...

ahh, worth a shot, we've had similar symptoms and found the rad fan to be at fault... I like to eliminate the easy fix before pulling things apart.

Good luck with a AC guys :wink2:

Cheers
Chris
 
GreenBlood said:
ahh, worth a shot, we've had similar symptoms and found the rad fan to be at fault... I like to eliminate the easy fix before pulling things apart.

Good luck with a AC guys :wink2:

Cheers
Chris
Click to expand...
thanks, let's see how it goes tomorrow...
 
AC folks had a look-see today and said the compressor's got to be replaced
showing it to some other folks might unearth someone willing to repair it but I'm disinclined to go down that route.

so now it's a question of whether I can find a used/rebuilt compressor locally or otherwise source from UK. the model is Sanden SD7V16 1242
 
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