404 questions

[Gus]

I've been dreaming about getting a 404 to restore for ages, now it looks like I might be getting my wish.

Hence, I have a few questions to ask:

1) Did 404s with floor shifts ever come out in Australia? Is anything more complex than hole-cutting required to make "on the tree" into "on the floor"?

2) Did 404s with fuel injection ever get released in Australia? AFAIK, only the coupes had it which would make the answer "No".

Finally, if I do restore a 404 I would want to give it a 5 speed BA7/5 gearbox and a 504 TI motor with the mechanical injection converted to EFI.

Does anyone know off-hand if there are TI-ed 404s cruising around? Did their owners need Engineer's Cerificates? How much would one cost? (considering the cars predate most emmission control requirements, and almost all ADRs, I would hope certification would come cheap.)

[pugrambo]

in answer to question one - no
in answer to question 2 - no
floor changes have been done to them but be wary of the rattles
you also may need to modify the tunnel for a 5spd but graham wallis or dave can elaborate on that as i may be wrong
in answer to your query you can place the TI engine into the 404 without the need for an engineers certificate as they pre-date ADR's
and yes they go fairly well as bieng someone that has driven and been around TI'd 404 utes, wagons, and sedans
the only we never did was place a 5 spd in one
best of luck to you and have fun
as a person who is not a huge fan of 404's but the 404 always needed more than the 1600 they arrived with

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Gus,
Don't fit the floorshift, the column shift is just great and one of the attractions of the 404.
Unfortunately you will need to fit one if you fit a BA7/5, somebody may correct me on this!
I wouldn't even worry about a bigger motor, the 1600 is just great when properly sorted, heaps of torque.
I am presently building a 404 motor with 1800 crank and standard head in an attempt to build on this aspect, the 1800 is just not as responsive, probably due to the bigger valves.Let you know how it goes in a couple of weeks.
I remember a comparison made by the PCCNSW between an Alfa, a 2litre injection 404 and a standard 404, in the midrange there was nothing between the 3.

404s do not take at all kindly to large amounts of modifications, just get the thing going properly (mind you that will take some work!)and you won't even think about hotting it up, you'll be too busy driving it.

The injection motor came in sedans as well but not in Australia, I had one and the performance was pathetic, certainly not as good as a carby model, but great economy. I had the pump overhauled and spent some time on it before giving up so it SHOULD have been OK.

Graham Wallis

[DTwo]

Gus:
I've been dreaming about getting a 404 to restore for ages, now it looks like I might be getting my wish.

Hence, I have a few questions to ask:

1) Did 404s with floor shifts ever come out in Australia? Is anything more complex than hole-cutting required to make "on the tree" into "on the floor"?

2) Did 404s with fuel injection ever get released in Australia? AFAIK, only the coupes had it which would make the answer "No".

Finally, if I do restore a 404 I would want to give it a 5 speed BA7/5 gearbox and a 504 TI motor with the mechanical injection converted to EFI.

Does anyone know off-hand if there are TI-ed 404s cruising around? Did their owners need Engineer's Cerificates? How much would one cost? (considering the cars predate most emmission control requirements, and almost all ADRs, I would hope certification would come cheap.)

Don't fear the column shift....the 404s was/is far better than many floor shift cars i've driven even in quite modern cars....

[Ray Bell]

And it doesn't get in the way...

I know of one TI engined 404 wagon in Victoria, but that was many years ago. 20+ years ago, in fact...

If you do find a good 404, you will ultimately be delighted with the feel of driving it... a disc brake model stops better than a 504 or 505 as well.

[Gus]

Mmm... interesting. I have yet to drive any column shifts bar a 3-speed auto Kingswood, so I'll have to give it a go before I decide.

I mostly wanted to fit the 2 litre because one of the things I've been wondering about is Dave Mcbean's idea of fitting EFI to a TI head.

Would a TI head fit on the 1600/1800 block?

PS Didn't ADRs come in in 1969? The car in Tassie that I'm looking at is a 1970... or am I wrong?

PPS Pugrambo - want to elaborate on the reasons you don't like 404s? I've heard nothing but pretty good things from most people, the only downside being they lack the tanklike stability of the 5s...

Part of the reason I want it is that I want to own a 60s car (fins!), while they're still affordable.

[DTwo]

Gus:
Mmm... interesting. I have yet to drive any column shifts bar a 3-speed auto Kingswood, so I'll have to give it a go before I decide.

Yeah, definately grab one and drive it for a while before butchering it's floor.....

Column shifts take more than a drive around the block to get used to.....but when you do, I think they are probably more "natural" than a floor shift, saves you moving a hand away from where everything else is happening.

Besides, how can you want a 60's car with fins and not want the column shift that goes with it?

[pugrambo]

from what i can understand you can do pretty much what you like to a car within reason pre compliance plate
the 70 model may or may not have a compliance plate affixed
i just prefer 403's over 404's
have had a few of both
don't get me wrong i love winged cars but if i was going to go winged it would have to be a 59caddy or an early chev
just love BIG wings
404's just never seemd to inspire me as much as the 403's do
my love would be a 403 with at least 150hp at the flywheel coupled to a 5spd preferably in a wagon
the thing that 404's have got over 403's is they are a lot easier to mount bigger power plants in them

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

The thing is that 403s can handle the power better, stiffer shell, possibility of wider track and much more positive location of the rear axle all help.

Trouble is that it is harder to obtain the power, I am getting around 110 hp out of my modified 1600 cc engine.

What is needed is a nice light engine which will fit in the space, an L series Datsun engine I think would be quite good with plenty of hot up technology available. Funnily enough a Holden motor will fit quite easily, pity about the weight though!

Graham Wallis

[davemcbean]

Ok, here's my 2 cents worth:

-I had a 404 with a Wagon gearshift and it was a bloody noisy car. If you want to keep the car quiet, it's best to keep the column shift. The solid floor without holes far outweighs the 5 speed as far as noise supression goes.

-I had an 1800 engine in mine and it was VERY torquey, but didn't rev as sweetly as the 1600 or 2 litre, but this may have been due to the fact that I was using a 1600 head on it (slightly smaller inlet valves and port hole).

-with the 1800 engine it was HEAPS faster than a 1600 404, but still not as fast as a good 2 litre 504 or 505, although it was faster than some of the more poorly running 504s/505s around. My original 1600 was only a low compression (7.6:1)South African version (XC7). I have since driven a 8.35:1 404 (67 model) and it went heaps better than mine, but still not as well as the 1.8 or the 2 litre, but the 1600 is definitely sweeter (due to its short stroke).

-I reckon a 404 1600 fitted with fuel injection would be awesome. More power and very sweet at high revs.

-You can fit a 504 TI head, but you have to weld the combustion chambers to decrease the chamber size and also to get the head to seal properly against the gasket. The 504 TI ports are much too big anyway. A modified 505 SLI head or imported XN1A head wold be better, but these are both rare here. You can modify the 404 head by milling and welding (or using epoxy filler) to create 4 inlet ports.

The only RWD Pug which has as flat handling as a late model 404, is the late 505 STI and GTI.

Standard 604s, 504s, early 505s, all feel VERY rolly polly compared to standard late 404s.

Dave

GRAHAM WALLIS:
Don't fit the floorshift, the column shift is just great and one of the attractions of the 404.

Both C3 and BA7 404s were available with both column shift, and floor shift (as an accessory). The floor shift was made by Nardi, yes, THAT Nardi, and provided you have one with an intact bushing for the shift lever, it is a VERY good shifter for an average gearbox (the C3). Noise isolation requires special attention, but the proper Nardi conversion kits included a sound-deadening lined fibreglass shell in two pieces, that go over the entire transmission tunnel, which made the car at least as quiet as one with a column shift. I sold my extra C3 Nardi kit to a guy in the US late last year, sorry wink And a third spare KF2 injection pump to another guy in Canada a month ago. I still have a spare, complete KF2 engine though, not to mention the one in my 404 Coupé. When mounting the Nardi kit, no hole cutting in the tunnel is required; the standard inspection plate cover is sufficiently large to allow the shifter to pass.

GRAHAM WALLIS:
The injection motor came in sedans as well but not in Australia, I had one and the performance was pathetic, certainly not as good as a carby model, but great economy. I had the pump overhauled and spent some time on it before giving up so it SHOULD have been OK.

Wow, your car was not set up properly! You need the KF tool kit to fine-tune the car (I have had one for a year for 404/504). Or maybe the rest of your engine was in bad nick. I set a KF2 engine up that had been lying in pieces for a decade way back in 1987, without KF tools, and it was a SWEET unit! A 404 Injection car is at least 10% faster than an XC6 404 in acceleration and top speed, and immeasurably smoother and more pleasureable to drive. The fuel economy is better than a carb car on the highway and the same/worse than a carb car in city driving.

About putting a 504 engine with EFI in a 404, that sounds like a strange project. There is nothing sweeter than a properly set up 404 KF2 Injection 1600. And really, they're not THAT hard to set up, even without the Kugelfischer tool kit. The 1971 cc engine is rough and agricultural compared to the KF2. Sure it'd be faster, but a stock Honda Civic would probably still lay waste to it. If you have the need for speed, put a DOHC V-6 Douvrin engine in the 404 (605 SV24) wink I am a traditionalist myself, KF2 all the way!

<small>[ 07 March 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: M. Tippett ]</small>

[Gus]

Thanks Mike... very interesting...

I still wanted to try the EFI... I've been thinking about this 'no engineer's certificate' business, though ... I remember Dave's site (or somewhere similar) named the 1600 motor as a good candidate for turbocharging...

(I wouldn't have to shrink the TI head's combustion chambers quite as much, either! Or worry too much about oversize ports - AFAIK)

It's not so much that I'm dead keen on having a 404 "road weapon" or something, just that I'd like one that's a bit different. If you're gonna have a project car, it may as well be a project.

[davemcbean]

M. Tippett:
The 1971 cc engine is rough and agricultural compared to the KF2.

Mike,

I agree that the KF2 and indeed all the 1618cc engines are smoother than the 1971cc unit, BUT in my experience the 1971cc unit is roughest in anti-pollution guise (small carburetors, restrictive camshaft, etc, etc). All but the very first 504s sold in North America were restricted as such. A good XN1 1971cc unit in European trim, while not as smooth as the 1618cc, is not that rough at all. Fitted with a better cam profile they feel as smooth as the 1618cc engine, although the 1.6 fitted with the same cam would be smoother still.

Also keep in mind in this discussion that there were only ever a handful of injected 404s imported to Australia, so it's near impossible to find KF2 bits here, let alone a complete engine.

Regarding the inspection hole on the trans tunnel. The sedans I've had didn't have this (67 and 73 model), although the 73 already had so much material cut out by the previous owner, that I don't know what it was like orginally. Maybe the inspection hole is only on earlier floor pans, before the spare wheel was mounted under the floor. Who knows?

Dave

<small>[ 07 March 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: davemcbean ]</small>

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Mike,
The KF2 engine had new rings etc so was in good condition. The pump was recoed by the only Kugelfischer specialist in Australia (Morassi and Williams) who had to specially make some parts.
It did everything right but just didn't have any power.
The only other one I drove revved like mad (hot cam) but didn't go as well as a standard 2 litre overall.

Dave,
Glad your 1800 with 404 head had a lot of torque, just what I am aiming for, if I can find a head gasket that is, everyone is sold out at present.
A clean carby seems to be the secret of good performance in a 1600, no matter what the model.
I drove a new XC7 (7.8 to 1) 404 in Noumea in 1973 (Avis RentaCar!) and it went exceptionally well.

I have an XC7 block if anyone wants to build a short stroke 1800. Fit 2 litre liners and 88mm pistons of suitabel height.

Graham Wallis

GRAHAM WALLIS:
The pump was recoed by the only Kugelfischer specialist in Australia (Morassi and Williams) who had to specially make some parts.

Do you have a mailing or email address for this KF specialist? I'd be interested in communicating with them. I am looking for some rare documentation. Perhaps they have it?

I wonder if they (like every KF/Bosch mechanical injection service centre in the world these days, unless they have a huge old stock of new parts) are suffering from a lack of new KF parts and therefore are forced to employ used parts in their work. I know of a BMW KF specialist in California (Pacific Fuel Injection, SF) who has this same problem.

These days, unfortunately, to have a KF pump overhauled properly means sending it to Koller & Schwemmer GmbH in Nürnberg and shelling out some 1700 Euros for a reconditioned unit. K&S have ALL the factory tooling for KF units and can make any part for them from scratch, to original specification. They seem to very jealously guard their monopoly, though. One year warranty and flow bench data is included, still that's a rich price!

In my experience (150,000 miles of KF2 driving), 404 KF pumps nearly never go wrong. This is the word from the Club 404 in France too, so it's not just me. I know the 504 TI pumps with the pneumatic device are more finicky, but the KF2 unit is dead simple and reliable. As long as there's clean lube in the camcase and the oil line to the hydraulic head is working, they last indefinitely. The only problem if they've been improperly stored for some time is piston sticking, but that is usually easy to deal with one's self, by removing the head unit and freeing the piston(s) manually, using penetrating oil.

Why did yours need reconditioning? Usually what happens is the car has a worn distributor (or in the case of the KF2, the wrong one - a very common problem), or there's something else totally unrelated to the pump that's the real problem.

The KF you drove with the peaky cam sounds unpleasant. In my opinion these engines are at their best with the stock cam or something like it, with which they have absolutely breathtaking flexibility and smooth power delivery, to shame any modern car. This makes them especially fun to drive. Putting a Reinz head gasket from an early 504 on (part number 0203.40, available from Musée Peugeot and the Club 404) will raise the compression ratio to something like 9.3:1 if your head is not shaved, which gives the car another little kick. My last daily driver 404KF2 had this arrangement and it was great, and an absolute rocket from 80 to 160 km/h!

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Mike,
Morassi and Williams can be contacted at 3/3 Techno Park Drive Williamstown Victoria 3016
Phone Australia 03 397 3993.
They do tend to use S/H parts.
They made something out of plastic for my KF2, the device that richens the mixture on acceleration, I think.
Your KF2s sound very good, I talked to a guy that navigated for the 404 raly cars in Kenya during the 1960s and he was also very complementary.

Graham Wallis

Thanks for the info, Graham. I appreciate it!

The piece they made for the KF pump sounds interesting - about the only thing made of plastic inside the whole unit is the nylon gear that links the 3-D variable cam (or engine speed/throttle position "map" to use a modern term) in response to engine rpm. The spare KF pump I sold to the fellow in Canada is going to be cannibalised for that very part. I'm not sure how it failed, but maybe the spring that "zeroes" it was unusually stiff, or the bearings were worn and the two shafts were putting unusual stresses on the gear.

Thanks again.

[Ray Bell]

Flat cornering... what good is it? We are Peugeot drivers, after all!

My Kugelfischer engine is now the sweetest revving thing I've ever had, just about! After about 130,000kms or more, and with new spark plugs, it whips up revs quicker than anything, and it spins so freely that it's a job remembering you're still in third gear!

But that said, I would think it would be a nice thing for Gus' project to start with that bottom end Graham has and put the 2-litre liners into it... then the 2-litre head will go nicely, pistons with crowns on them would bump up the compression far enough and the fun could begin.

I'm absolutely amazed that Graham has said that 403 shells are stiffer than 404, because I really believe that's one of the 404's great claims to fame. It's stiff and the suspension works around that so nicely.

As for the inspection hole in the tunnel, that's a sort of rounded off long triangle, I guess you could say, and I think every 404 I ever had (that would be thirty five or more cars!) had it. Maybe I never got that far into a couple of them, but I certainly don't remember one that didn't have it...

If Gus were to use the C2 box (heh he... let's plant another germ of an idea...) he could replicate the lovely floorchange conversion that Sydney Speed Shop used to make. Magic change, but sealing would require care.

That, of course, would give him a tall second gear, third the same as the original top and a 0.7:1 overdrive fourth gear. Downside is adapting a hydraulic clutch and sorting out thrust race arrangements, but it can be done and it would be good... fit straight in and all that.

With the torque he'd have, and with the lightness of the car, it would be very nice to drive... hell, it was nice to use one of them with the 1600.

I'll give you a ring some time, Gus...

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Oops, sorry Mike, left out a 9 from the phone number.
should be 03 9397 3993

Graham

[GRAHAM WALLIS]

Ray,
With the soft rear gearbox mount and some corrugations you can see the windscreen pillars dance around. A 404 only has a life of a few years when used in rallies before the front pillars crack through. To get a decent life out of a shell you need a very good integral roll cage.
By way of contrast my 403 is showing no sign of distress at all after 16 years of dirt motorsport.
It even has its original 40 year old paint job!

Graham Wallis

About the stiffness of the 404 sedan, I agree that it could have been better. When these cars get a little rusty, they lose all torsional stiffness and using the factory jack (if the mounts have not detached) will result in unopenable doors when the car is off the ground. The daily driver KF2 sedan that I was forced to scrap in 1990 was like this.

On the other hand, the 404 Coupé is an immensely stiff shell, even when rusty. It's got all of the reinforcements of the cabriolet (huge frame channels inside the rocker panels, welded up fenders,...) plus a strong permanent roof. That's the reason these cars weigh 55 kg more than the sedan.

I suspect that the 504 sedan/Coupé had the same thing going, and perhaps that's one reason that Peugeot started using the 504C for its rally car in 1976 (the V-6 might have had something to do with it too).

I don't know the 403 well enough to comment meaningfully on it, although the egg-shape of its roof seems to be stronger-looking than that of the square-rigged 404.

I still love the 404 though, and if I build a 404 KF2 rally car someday, it'll be a sedan, of course!

[Ray Bell]

Indeed, Mike, the rigidity of the 504C is bolstered to massive proportions by the Cabriolet base...

And I really think it was Graham's eyeballs dancing around rather than the windscreen pillars... I've sent many a 404 to the tip, and I've never had any issue with opening doors while jacked up.

But I agree, that's twenty-something years ago now, there would be more and worse rust in any still floating about.

[pugrambo]

graham
it's good to see that i'm not the only one that has always thought that the 403 is a stiffer and tighter car than the 404
hence my reasoning that i have always prefered the 403 over the 404
but each to their own
there always seem to be more 404 lovers over 403 lovers
i'd have a 403 preferably a wagon tomorrow
maybe when i get some nore time up my sleeve i'll hunt around

[Ray Bell]

Actually, I'd prefer a 203 any day...

or...

404 Coupé Injection KF2, the best of them all wink

Ray, will you be wathcing F1 qualifying in half an hour?

I will, even though it's only Friday evening...