What to look for in a 2CV

pottsy

pottsy

Citroen Loony & BMC Nutter.
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I'm Back!

Now that the reincarnation of our favourite forum is complete (thanks to all those back room boys and girls who've salvaged all that they can from the ashes left by Godaddy) it's time for me to ask another question of the Brains Trust.

I'm seriously contemplating becoming the owner of a 2CV. I've got Griesy lined up to look at it with me, but I can't look at it for a month or so. (Owner gone OS)

So in the meantime I thought I'd do some research. Excuse my naivete. I know little if anything about 2CV's, but I've loved them from afar all my life. The basic simplicity really appeals.

Car in question is an early [1958] AZ. That's about all I know about the type.

I'm sure Griesy will be able to advise me as to condition and potential replacement needs. I'm not afraid of doing rust repairs, etc. This is planned to be a retirement project anyway. Mechanicals don't daunt me either. I maintain the DS and the Mini myself in the home workshop.

What I'm keen to know are a few piddling little things like, are later engine gearbox units available (600cc/Disc brake) and will they fit into an early 425cc chassis?

The attraction of this thought is (a) the big bore motor (!) and (b) disc brakes working on LHM.

Also, how hard is it to change from 6V to 12V? I realise the generator is sort of integral with the engine. I assume that later engines would come with the 12V gennie? Other than lightbulbs I can't imagine the rest of the car would be too hard. Given that the starter motor is a series wound unit I also assume it'd probably just go faster on 12V? Then again, if I obtained a later mechanical package it might have the right starter anyway?

I'm sure other questions will occur to me as I continue thinking about this project. Of course, it could turn out to be a complete waste of time, but as they say in the classics, "Knowledge is no burden" so any info I can glean at this stage will be helpful down the track I reckon.

Cheers for now, Pottsy
 
Welcome back, Pottsy,

Like you, the Memsahib has this strange attraction to the 2CV. However, I would suggest that current advances in medical treatment may offer some help - - -

However, if you end up so afflicted, why change from 6v to 12 v? These cars have been running very successfully for years on 6v, along with many others. Below is an article on some of the problems you may encounter in trying to convert from 6 to 12.



PROS AND CONS OF 6 VOLT TO 12-VOLT CONVERSION IN VINTAGE CARS​
The lead-acid battery has, as its basic source of energy, a plate-pair consisting of a plate of spongy lead and a plate of lead peroxide pressed onto an antimony-lead grid framework.
Each plate pair, when charged, yields 2.2 volts on open circuit or, when maximum power is required, some 1 volt between the plates which, for the average 12cm x 16cm plate-pair, occurs when delivering some 70 amperes which can be maintained for about 30 seconds, after which time hydrogen bubbles commence to insulate or polarize the positive plate.
In a 6-volt car system, the cranking current is about 400 amp, which is derived from 3 cells in series, each of 6 pairs of plates plus one negative plate. At a discharge current of 400 amp, the battery voltage falls to 3 volts, which is sufficient to deliver a good spark at cranking speeds.
For the typical 12-volt system, a starting current of some 200 amp is required which is derived from 6 cells, each of 3 pairs of plates. Each plate pair still delivers some 70 ampere. Again, at maximum power the battery voltage falls to about 6 volts, which is sufficient at the coil for a good spark.
However, some drivers who have converted 6 volt cars to a 12 volt system sometimes omit to rewind the starter for 12 volt operation. True, the old 6 volt starter cranks with renewed vigour but a current of 400 amp is still required for this operation. Apart from the near destruction of the 12 volt battery from plate buckling and material shedding, measurements show that the battery voltage falls to about 3.5 volts which is insufficient to provide a spark from the 12 volt coil and results in very difficult starting.
The only solution is to have the starter re-wound for 12 volt operation when the starting current will fall to 200 amp and the battery voltage will rise to 6 volts.
Always remember so conversion to 12 volt is rarely worth the trouble or expense required. It is true that over the years, vibration work-hardens the copper conductors, which increases the resistance and causes headlight dimming in both 6 volt and 12 volt systems. A simple heavy and fused line to the position of the lamps and a correctly placed relay can easily correct this problem.

From The Vintage Driver, March 2002, Supplied by Don Swingler.
 
Hi Pottsy. You have climbed the mountain and are contemplating motoring in the promiseed land. The chassis seems to be different for the 425cc compared to the later 602cc. It differs in that it has outriggers on each side to holdup the floor, whereas the 602cc versions have that strengthening built into the floor. I doubt if there is any problem mounting the larger engine into the older chassis. I take it that you want the original ripple bonnet car because of the looks of the body compared to the late model body. However , you would also like the perfromance of the 602cc engine and the simplicity and effectiveness of the disc brakes.

For availability of parts (both body and mechanical), I am a great fan of the 1980 onwards cars with the larger engine, disc brakes and 12V system. That is the most common version around the world and certainly in Australia. Because of the better availability of parts, it is easier to keep the car in top condition.

The old ripple bonnets have suspension differences such as friction dampers instead of shock absorbers. They also have "bateurs" or inertial dampers on the front suspension and some also have it on the rear. Generally their ride is super soft rather than just soft.

It also depends upon how much driving you intend to do. If you want to do a fair bit, I would stick to the later model due to better availability of tyres and rims, shock absorbers, batteries, alternators, starter motors, engine components. Better choices with Harley coils, vacuum advance 123 ignition.

John

The following photos show how Daffy Duck started life. Took 5 months to build.
 

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Hey Pottsie

there are plenty of later (big bore) 602cc engine floating around. though even with these the pace is well.... leasurely. they are very much more practical in modern road conditions than 425 engines. 602 engines use modern CV joints in the drive shafts and parts are more readily available for them.

changing an old car to LHM would mean changing over all the slave cylinders and the mastercylinder. after using a drum brake car for about 10 years id would encouragine using a drum brake gearbox - being so light these cars dont need much braking and once drum brakes are set up properly they work just as efficiently as disks. i tend to think citroen changed from drums to disks for servicing reasons only.

most aspects of the car are ideal for home servicing and only the gearboxes require specialist tools and servicing.

if you have any queries dont hesitate to contact me

IanS
 
Thanks for the feedback so far peoples. I'm really looking forward to meeting the car.

As far as the engine's concerned, is it possible to rebuild the big ends on the roller bearing assembly? As I understand it, the crank assembly is pressed together and that's the way it stays. I imagine to replace the roller bearings the crank would need to be disassembled and then pressed together again. I gather that not many people do this? (if at all?) Is the bottom end seen as a service replacement (as in throw away and put in a newie)?

I'm attracted to the ripple bonnet not for reasons of style rather that I like the absolute simplicity of the earlies. I also like the idea of having one of the simplest cars in teh world sharing the garage with one of the more complex ones.

OK, I just realised, I'm weird!

Cheers, Pottsy
 
I doubt you'll find a worn out bottom end ... there huge. Gricey showed us one that was worn out in the bottom end.... It had been putted around by and old lady and not thrashed like it should have been :roflmao:

I'm sure Gricey will give all the advice you will ever need with regards to the 2cv. When were were there years ago, he was working on an immaculate looking 2cv "chassis is stuffed" he said. He lifted it with a jack and grabbed the front and lifted up 'n' down with it flexing around the firewall. If I'd looked at the car with intention to purchase I'd have bought it thinking everything looked perfect :eek:

seeya,
shane L
 
The conrods are pressed into the crank. If they need replacing, both the crank and the conrods come as one unit. The crank is cooled to about -175 C prior to being pressed together. It is then allowed to warm to room temperature. It is impossible to break apart unless it is cooled to that temperature.

I drive 2CVs hard and the 3 that I have owned have all had their engines reconditioned. This usually means a new barrel/piston/rings set new seals for the pushrods and the cylinder heads cleaned up by a motorcycle repairer (the 2CV engine is more a motorbike engine influenced by the old BMW twin). Also a motorcycle repairer has tools more suited to removing the piddly valves on a 2CV. There is no head gasket, it is a tapered fit and the three head stubs are not much more than finger tight (18 ft lbs). The bottom end is very strong and I haven't buggered one yet, though I am trying. In the photo above, Daffy Ducks engine was seized solid. Laid up outside in the rain, water gets into the carby and through an open valve and rusts the cylinder to piston ring. A new barrel kit and - presto!

Anyhow, none of this is your problem. Hand it over to Gricie and he can refurbish whatever is required.

John
 
Hand it over to Griesy when I want to do such things myself? Not bloomin' likely! :) The largest part of my enjoyment of owning things mechanical is playing with the aforesaid toys. (Driving them ranks pretty high too!) :)

It's good to know that such a repair is feasible, although I doubt I'd tackle that one in my home workshop.

I was curious as the owner of the car I've got my eye on reckoned he wasn't able to get such a repair done (it was a long time ago) so he gave up.

I'll certainly be using David up as far as picking brains in concerned. It'll probably cost me a fortune in Scotch but I might have to help him drink some of it, so it's not all that bad.

Thanks for the info, Pottsy
 
Your talking about the car that was in a club mag recently right ??? It certainly caught my eye too. Especially given my old man has a "spare" motor for his 2cv (he'd never notice if it went walk-a-bout surely :evil: :confused: ). I figured SWMBO would kill me if I even dreamed of going to look at it :(

The club rego scheme sure opens up a few doors when you think of these sorts of toys right :dance:

seeya,
Shane L.
 
DoubleChevron said:
Your talking about the car that was in a club mag recently right ??? It certainly caught my eye too. Especially given my old man has a "spare" motor for his 2cv (he'd never notice if it went walk-a-bout surely :evil: :confused: ). I figured SWMBO would kill me if I even dreamed of going to look at it :(

The club rego scheme sure opens up a few doors when you think of these sorts of toys right :dance:

seeya,
Shane L.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'd get the same reaction from my "SWMBO" even though I would love to have one. Preferably an early 425cc.
Cheers Gerry:cheers:

PS I have a gearbox and a partially dismantled motor for a 425 cc if any one is interested. The gearbox is an unknown quantity and missing the centrifugal clutch. The motor is for spares only. Make me an offer!
 
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I early ripple bonnets may appear to be simpler and easier to maintain but I would go the later ones, which are just as simple but easier because of parts. Some of the simple thrills of the ripple bonnet:
  • you get to adjust the drum brakes. The later disc brakes are self adjusting
  • you get to set up the friction dampers and try to source the parts. The later ones had simple telescopic shock absorbers. Easy to source and easy to replace.
  • with the friction dampers there are normally inertial dampers (batteurs) on the fornt and sometimes also on the rear. Nothing should happen to them, although a spring broke in mine. That meant grinding the thing open, and getting a spring factory to try to make a new spring.
That said, with everything set up properly, you can negotiate those small (1m wide) speed bumps at near maximum speed in a ripple. I have a 2CV6 which is dead level at 80kph over them. There is a hell of a lot of noise, more so on mine as it has batteurs on the front, so the is a loud clunk as the weight hits the bottom. Thats probably why the spring broke on mine. The ripple bonnet has THE most compliant suspension you could imagine.

Good luck. Get a really good 11mm ring spanner. That covers about 80% of all the nuts. The wheel brace does the common larger nuts. Wheel bearing nuts are a different stort and need some special tools, but rarely need doing unless you take the car on Raids and have a bulldust grind the bearings to bits.

John
 
Bottom end

pottsy said:
Thanks for the feedback so far peoples. I'm really looking forward to meeting the car.

As far as the engine's concerned, is it possible to rebuild the big ends on the roller bearing assembly? As I understand it, the crank assembly is pressed together and that's the way it stays. I imagine to replace the roller bearings the crank would need to be disassembled and then pressed together again. I gather that not many people do this? (if at all?) Is the bottom end seen as a service replacement (as in throw away and put in a newie)?

I'm attracted to the ripple bonnet not for reasons of style rather that I like the absolute simplicity of the earlies. I also like the idea of having one of the simplest cars in teh world sharing the garage with one of the more complex ones.

OK, I just realised, I'm weird!

Cheers, Pottsy
Click to expand...

Hi:):)
Actually the bottom end in a 2cv is not roller bearings. It has plain bearings like other motors. The rods are however not split but put on the journals and the crank pressed together. This was not uncommon 'back in the old days' on motorbike engines and the like. They do not appear to be a weakness but do fail occasionally due to neglect or the oil cooler caking up or the like.:confused: The common wisdome is to just replace the crank assemby if it has a problem, or leave it alone if it is OK.:D
There are workshop manuals on the web which you can download to study if you wish. They tell you all you need to know about the models and changes etc. Written in a simple easy to read format as befits the era they were written in.:rolleyes:
:cheers: Jaahn
 
What to look for in a 2CV

I usually look for hot, naked women. Sometimes you see them. Sometimes you don't. My brother actually sent me some pics of a hot naked woman that he found.
 
pottsy said:
I'm attracted to the ripple bonnet not for reasons of style rather that I like the absolute simplicity of the earlies. I also like the idea of having one of the simplest cars in teh world sharing the garage with one of the more complex ones.

OK, I just realised, I'm weird!

Cheers, Pottsy
Click to expand...

The 2CV is not simple - it is actually one of the cleverest and sophisticated car designs ever devised. So you would have a real complement to the Dee.
roger
 
Actually you could be right in the semantics, Roger.

On the face of it, clever and sophisticated could be perceived to be the opposite of simple, but realistically, the simplest designs are often the cleverest.

I used to work with a talented engineer who maintained that there were three things in the modern world which were incredibly efficient in that they achieved far more than the basic design called for.

His list was: The high voltage transformer, roughly 90% efficient in transferring energy, the Douglas DC3 aircraft, and the Citroen 2CV.

Have to agree with Harry,

Cheers, Pottsy.
 
Hey Pottsy, It's Harley here, the AFCC (Aussie Frogs Crash Crisis) converted me back to an old login name... :blackeye:

Go for the early az Ripple bonnet they are so unique. As you may know Bod Dirks had a lot of success running a slightly tuned 435cc with 12volt electrics for everyday use. The only link i have with info is HERE, i think the rest was lost in the AFCC.

I It may be worth more to an enthusiast in it's original trim, but for regular/everyday motoring the 602cc drivetrain is a must. I personally would pay more for a modernised ripple bonnet than a standard one.

Jerome Cats was the godfather of all things 2cv, his site still has the relevant information for the conversion: Jerome Cats Website He also has a great theoretical top speed calculator on his site which allows you to play with different gearbox, engine and wheel/tyre combinations.

The other site which is an absolute must is I2F, such an amazing resource. Viking is a regular there and will get you any parts you require from France/Europe.

Gricey is definitely the Guru, a real Burt Munro of the 2cv.

All the best for the purchase.

Harley
 
Jeez, Harley,

A top speed calculator for a 2CV has been in existence for many years.

It's called a calendar.

Regards,

fento
 
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