Man crushed while working on car
- Thread starter TroyO
- Start date
I've always found the safest bet particularly with a htdraulic car where it can keep settling, is to get all 4 wheels off the ground and the car fully supported.
I then shake the guts out of it before I get under and as I said before, use secondary safety measures such as jacks, tyres and wood under wheels still on the car.
Alan S
BTW, has anyone checked on George??
I then shake the guts out of it before I get under and as I said before, use secondary safety measures such as jacks, tyres and wood under wheels still on the car.
Alan S
BTW, has anyone checked on George??
I think that even if the jack failed it still could have been the nature of the hydraulic system that causes an accident. Occasionally if I had to change a rear tyre you would have to raise the car to the highest position, then jack it, then as you were getting the wheel off then the rest of the car would sink to the lowest position. While it was lowering itself there always seemed to be a lot of movement where the jack was as the load shifted.
When the front height controller failed on my BX (at speed too!) I couldn't even jack it up to have a look underneath. The front spoiler on the 16v prevented me from driving it up on my ramps.
I found a traffic island nearby that I could slowly drive up onto (it was sitting on the bump stops) and then safely get underneath.
The way it was parked though, with one of the rear wheels cocked up in the air, looked like it was the scene of an accident. Even the police came around to check that everything was OK
When the front height controller failed on my BX (at speed too!) I couldn't even jack it up to have a look underneath. The front spoiler on the 16v prevented me from driving it up on my ramps.
I found a traffic island nearby that I could slowly drive up onto (it was sitting on the bump stops) and then safely get underneath.
The way it was parked though, with one of the rear wheels cocked up in the air, looked like it was the scene of an accident. Even the police came around to check that everything was OK
macquered said:I think that even if the jack failed it still could have been the nature of the hydraulic system that causes an accident. Occasionally if I had to change a rear tyre you would have to raise the car to the highest position, then jack it, then as you were getting the wheel off then the rest of the car would sink to the lowest position. While it was lowering itself there always seemed to be a lot of movement where the jack was as the load shifted.
When the front height controller failed on my BX (at speed too!) I couldn't even jack it up to have a look underneath. The front spoiler on the 16v prevented me from driving it up on my ramps.
I found a traffic island nearby that I could slowly drive up onto (it was sitting on the bump stops) and then safely get underneath.
The way it was parked though, with one of the rear wheels cocked up in the air, looked like it was the scene of an accident. Even the police came around to check that everything was OK
Hey Brenno,
that's a stroke of Genious driving the car up there. that's better than any set of ramps or axle stands (as there is no way it can fall off).
seeya,
Shane L.
macquered said:
.......which is the reason they specify a correct jacking procedure.
Suspension on highest, jack under, collapse suspension, remove wheel when it it has properly settled and has been checked for stability.
If you just raise it up, then jack it further and then rip the wheel off, the suspension via the height correctors will find its even level. This is why there's no shortcuts with safety; either do it right or don't do it.
In the case of a height corrector's sway bar being loose, it would be getting a bit paranoid using that as a "common fault" as I've had hydraulic Cits for 22 years and never had a problem and know many more who haven't either, in fact yours was an almost extremely rare case which could have been avoided if it had been attended to as soon as the symptoms began to show. However in the case of loss of fluid or the like which needed the car to be jacked, a scissor jack will lift it high enough for the Cit jack to be put under it or better still a trolley jack so that stands could be fitted.
Alan S
I'm sorry to hear this, it is a horrible thing that could happen to anyone of us.
It really has made me think of all the times that I've quickly stuck my head under the car to check something minor while the car was running unsupported! It never has just dropped suddenly with the engine running but I will never do it again...I promise.
My shiny new axle stands seem really dodgy the way they move around, so they're going as well.
The best way I've seen to support the car safely is on a level concrete floor with large wooden blocks under the support areas beneath the doors, and one piece to span between the two supports at the front along with a trolley jack to lift both front wheels, then placing smaller wooden blocks under the support areas as the height increases. The wood distributes the load more evenly and is kinder to the metal work.
This is clear wake up call to me as I contemplate cleaning up the sticking height correctors and adjusting the height. I will be much more wary of safety now.
Andy
It really has made me think of all the times that I've quickly stuck my head under the car to check something minor while the car was running unsupported!
It never has just dropped suddenly with the engine running but I will never do it again...I promise.My shiny new axle stands seem really dodgy the way they move around, so they're going as well.
The best way I've seen to support the car safely is on a level concrete floor with large wooden blocks under the support areas beneath the doors, and one piece to span between the two supports at the front along with a trolley jack to lift both front wheels, then placing smaller wooden blocks under the support areas as the height increases. The wood distributes the load more evenly and is kinder to the metal work.
This is clear wake up call to me as I contemplate cleaning up the sticking height correctors and adjusting the height. I will be much more wary of safety now.
Andy
XTC said:
Whose that in the back seat??
:banana: :jiggy: Alan S
Alan S said:
Is that procedure in the owners handbook? How do you fully collapse the suspension in the GS for example, when you don't have a low lever setting?
I haven't got access to my BX handbook anymore but from memory the instructions were fairly brief.
It doesn't say anything here either;
http://citroenz.com/BX/Towing.html
Alan S said:
I accept it was a rare failure, but it was a failure nonetheless. I have now experienced power steering failure, brake failure and now complete suspension failure. All were at speed. All were unexpected, and showed no symptoms.
My grandfather told me a few stories of complete hydraulic failure in Citroens, but understandably he would given he was a Citroen mechanic. A family friend had an accident in a GS after it lost suspension and brakes at speed. There was the hydraulic failure in the BX 16v at Eastern Creek too.
Alan S said:
None of the scissor jacks I had including the one that came with the car would fit under it.
macquered said:
You have to leave a GS on high to change a rear wheel anyway, or you can't get it out of the wheelarch. I tend to just leave it on high for a front wheel too -- they will just come clear of the ground if you put it back on the "normal" setting, but the clearance is pretty marginal. Tetering on the jack isn't an issue, because it's behind the centre of gravity, and unless the car is sick it will stay high for a couple of hours.
Chris
I love that gif of the BX bouncing. They arent that bad though are they?
Got an SMS from George this morning and spoke to him this arvo. He thinks he may know who it may be. More later.
Fail safe supports.
Like all, I wondered if the person concerned frequented this forum, and whether he did or did not, the circumstances are so tragic to lose a life in those circumstances.
The fact that it was a citroen is of no consequence as this type of incident has been with the motoring community for years, my father (now 96) dinned it in to me all my life never to just trust jacks or wheel stands, so I have always been paranoid about placing a stable pyramid of redgum blocks under the car as additional safety when ever I have worked on one.
I am sure that this caution saved my life when movement collapsed a stand, but the car fell ever so slightly to rest on the blocks - whatever as soon as I felt the initial movement I scuttled out from under the car - never thought I could move so fast!!
I always keep a supply of redgum blocks cut from old fence posts, they are solid, don't split or crack and its easy to flat pack them in a stable pile that wont collapse.
So sad we are talking about this safety issue after a death has occurred. My condolances to his family and friends.
Like all, I wondered if the person concerned frequented this forum, and whether he did or did not, the circumstances are so tragic to lose a life in those circumstances.
The fact that it was a citroen is of no consequence as this type of incident has been with the motoring community for years, my father (now 96) dinned it in to me all my life never to just trust jacks or wheel stands, so I have always been paranoid about placing a stable pyramid of redgum blocks under the car as additional safety when ever I have worked on one.
I am sure that this caution saved my life when movement collapsed a stand, but the car fell ever so slightly to rest on the blocks - whatever as soon as I felt the initial movement I scuttled out from under the car - never thought I could move so fast!!
I always keep a supply of redgum blocks cut from old fence posts, they are solid, don't split or crack and its easy to flat pack them in a stable pile that wont collapse.
So sad we are talking about this safety issue after a death has occurred. My condolances to his family and friends.
Yes, redgum posts are great..they are the 5''x5'' ones I was talking about, corner fence posts from where I gerw up in Brisbane. Heavy as too.Kenfuego said:
It is sad to be talking post-accident about these things. Very good deterent isn't it.
Be careful. I was also educated to kep the jack under the car(just below load bearing height) at all times so if the unthinkable happens anyone who arrives on the scene can raise the vehicle immeadiatly.
Paranoid lot aren't we
Yes this is a tragic loss of life and we can only hope the wisdom imparted in these three pages prevents another.
macquered said:
If you need to get a GS right down for whatever reason, you can do so easily by undoing the bleed screw on the pressure regulator a half a turn or so. This is a bit of a pain as it is so hard to reach. You have to open the bonnet AND lift up the spare wheel to reach it... Then you select the 'high' and 'normal' height positions after a few seconds pause between each. On early models the car will come right down after 3 or 4 cycles. Some late GSs had a separate brake accumulator mounted near the nearside firewall. With one of these you may have to pump the brake pedal for a bit to bleed off any residual pressure as well. Having said all this, Chris is quite right of course, you need to have the car on high to slip a rear wheel past the guards anyway and may be why GSs have a jack instead of a stand.
On the general topic of supporting hydraulic Cits and chocking their wheels, one thing I have noticed is that because of the trailing arm rear suspension design they use, they do tend to roll their rear wheels backwards a bit as they drop down to the bump stops. It's because the wheelbase alters slightly as the arms move within the limits of their travel. It's also the same reason they'll occasionally drop down a bit if you've come to a complete stop abruptly, occasionally. Most of you guys would know all this stuff already of course, but the point is that whenever I need to lift the front of a Cit, if I'm going to chock the rear wheels to stop the car falling off the stands, I always wait until I've bled the pressure off before chocking the wheels, to ensure that forward momentum isn't generated when the car goes down against the chocks. Similarly, if you have ever, as I have, struggled to pull the chocks from behind the rear wheels after letting a Cit off the jack, this is probably the reason why. I'd be careful starting one up in the same situation too, lest it decide to push itself off the stands. I'm not suggesting that sufficient forward travel would necessarily exist to make this occur, however given the origins of this thread and the tragic events which took place, I'm not sure you can ever be too careful working around/under ANY car...
Regards,