dexron II hard to find

orestes

orestes

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So I just went to my local autobahn, looking for DXII, and after looking at all the bottles for a while, I asked one of the guys where the DXII was, for him only to tell me that DXIII was the same thing... anyway, after telling him no it's not, I went on my way looking for DXII long story short I eventually found the stuff not marked as DXII, but as transmax m by castrol. I read the fine print and bingo found DXII I was looking for, but anyway, I wouldn't thought number 1, it would be dificult to find what I was looking for, and 2 that the guy there would tell me something is what it isn't... oh well

cut it all short, transmax m by castrol is DXII if you're looking for it for your pug/cit
 
Yep, well done. D2 is NOT D3. Go back to Autobarn and show stoopid sales person the proof.

Transmax M in the ZF of the XM is boodiful! MUCH better than the D3 crud for which the gearbox was not designed and v v.

Running the Transmax M in your Pug ZF gearbox (which should be the same as the BX) you will notice the difference (if it has had D3 in it) After your second change in a few weeks time it will be even better.
 
orestes said:
So I just went to my local autobahn, looking for DXII, and after looking at all the bottles for a while, I asked one of the guys where the DXII was, for him only to tell me that DXIII was the same thing... anyway, after telling him no it's not, I went on my way looking for DXII long story short I eventually found the stuff not marked as DXII, but as transmax m by castrol. I read the fine print and bingo found DXII I was looking for, but anyway, I wouldn't thought number 1, it would be dificult to find what I was looking for, and 2 that the guy there would tell me something is what it isn't... oh well

cut it all short, transmax m by castrol is DXII if you're looking for it for your pug/cit
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Next time this happens, ask the fulla if the product is compatible, suitable for your application and will not cause any damage. In writing.

your 205 will love it

Farmerdave
 
Castrol Transmax M now ATF Dex11

Called in to my local Big_W to pick up some Transmax M for the ZF in the 205 Si.
Couldn't find the familiar red bottle on the shelf.
In its place was a white bottle with Castrol ATF Dex11 on the label.
At the bottom of the label was advice that this is what was formerly known as Transmax M.
All good.
Get to the check out only to be told that Big-W are going to discontinue selling automotive oil, well this branch at least anyway.
will have to find another source. Repco first stop (RACQ card discount) but will also try Super Cheap as I have a trade card with them.

Paul

“A straight is merely the distance between two corners.”

“Corners: radar free zones.”

Current: Peugeot 205 GTi Mi16 1987
Peugeot 205 Si, one red one silver, both 1991.
Peugeot 504 Wagon, V6 and 5 speed gearbox.
Isuzu (Holden) Rodeo, 4WD dual cab, extended chassis.
Past: Goliath, Isuzu Bellett, Austin A30, Peugeot 203, 403, 404, 504,505.
Subaru 4WD wagon, Toyota Hilux Dual Cab Diesel 4WD.

Makotrac 205 GTi 06-05-2012 best lap 1 min 20 sec.
 
this certainly creates a lot of discussion!
Transmax M is the same as Dexron II.
http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/9591_Transmax M.pdf

Dexron III can be used in anything which was specified as Dexron II.
the name Dexron III does not appear on any bottle these days due to licencing from GM.
they all say D3 or DIII.

this is what Castrol says:

TRANSMAX M
CASTROL TRANSMAX M, previously CASTROL TO DEXRON®
II D21885, satisfies the requirements of GM 6137M (1975) and is
approved by Mercedes Benz (P236.7), ZF (TE-ML 14) and BTR
(Eng) for their three speed automatic transmissions (models 39, 40
& 51 ). Castrol Transmax M is also approved for certain Peugeot
automatic transmissions.
Licensing requirements precludes reference to DEXRON® on fluids

CASTROL TRANSMAX M is suitable for a wide range of automatic
transmission applications. It is not sultable where Ford M2C-33 or
other specialist fluids are recommended. For severe duty
applications CASTROL TO DEXRON® III or TRANSMAX Z
(synthetic automatic transmission fluid) are recommended.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...ssets/downloads/a/Auto_Trans_Fluids_B1191.pdf

actually, you should be able to put Dexron VI in place of Dexron II or III. this is what GM says:

Since General Motors introduced the first ATF service-fill specification in 1949 it has been periodically necessary to upgrade the specification. This upgrading process ensures that available service fill fluids are of an appropriate quality for use in transmissions that have been designed around the factory fill fluid performance. It should be noted that, as with previous upgrades, DEXRON®-VI fluids are designed to be backward compatible with earlier transmission hardware. More importantly, earlier type fluids are not forward compatible with transmission hardware that was designed to use DEXRON®-VI fluid, i.e. DEXRON®-III is not compatible with the most recently designed transmissions, and the use of these earlier type fluids could result in transmission damage. All current calibrations and certification tests are now conducted with DEXRON®-VI ATF. DEXRON®-III fluids should not be used for these applications where the owners manual recommends the use of DEXRON®-VI. GM does not license or support obsolete ATF specifications or the use of fluids that are being marketed against cancelled specifications.
 
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alexander said:
actually, you should be able to put Dexron VI in place of Dexron II or III. this is what GM says:

Since General Motors introduced the first ATF service-fill specification in 1949 it has been periodically necessary to upgrade the specification. This upgrading process ensures that available service fill fluids are of an appropriate quality for use in transmissions that have been designed around the factory fill fluid performance. It should be noted that, as with previous upgrades, DEXRON®-VI fluids are designed to be backward compatible with earlier transmission hardware. More importantly, earlier type fluids are not forward compatible with transmission hardware that was designed to use DEXRON®-VI fluid, i.e. DEXRON®-III is not compatible with the most recently designed transmissions, and the use of these earlier type fluids could result in transmission damage. All current calibrations and certification tests are now conducted with DEXRON®-VI ATF. DEXRON®-III fluids should not be used for these applications where the owners manual recommends the use of DEXRON®-VI. GM does not license or support obsolete ATF specifications or the use of fluids that are being marketed against cancelled specifications.
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My understanding is that this only applies to GM transmissions. Early ZF transmissions (and some others) still require D2.
 
ATF Dex11 for ZF NOT ATF Dex 111

alexander said:
this certainly creates a lot of discussion!
Dexron III can be used in anything which was specified as Dexron II.
Not quite what Castrol says.
To quote their tech spec sheets.

Castrol ATF Dex II is suitable for a wide range of older European vehicle automatic transmissions;
e.g. Mercedes-Benz, FZ, Voith, Renk, BMW, SAAB, (SAAB 9000) and Peugeot.

http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/10600_Castrol_ATF_DEX_ II_3371170_2011_08.pdf

(presumably the FZ in the above was a typo for ZF )

Castrol ATF Dex III is recommended for many transmissions used in General Motors cars,
Holden, Isuzu, Opel and Hydramatic® transmissions used in a range of vehicles.
It is also suitable many earlier model Japanese vehicles where Dexron® type fluids are
recommended. It is recommended for other transmissions where Dexron® and Dexron® II fluids
are specified except Mercedes-Benz, ZF, BMW, Voith and Renk

http://www.tds.castrol.com.au/pdf/10601_Castrol_ATF_Dex_ III_3371181_2011_08.pdf


Paul

“A straight is merely the distance between two corners.”

“Corners: radar free zones.”

Current: Peugeot 205 GTi Mi16 1987
Peugeot 205 Si, one red one silver, both 1991.
Peugeot 504 Wagon, V6 and 5 speed gearbox.
Isuzu (Holden) Rodeo, 4WD dual cab, extended chassis.
Past: Goliath, Isuzu Bellett, Austin A30, Peugeot 203, 403, 404, 504,505.
Subaru 4WD wagon, Toyota Hilux Dual Cab Diesel 4WD.

Makotrac 205 GTi 06-05-2012 best lap 1 min 20 sec.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
have it your way, chaps, but GM, who created the Dexron specifications, specifically say otherwise.,

the Castrol sheet noted above also says this:

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
Castrol ATF Dex III is an automatic transmission and power steering fluid for use in GM
automatic transmissions pre 2005 and in many automatic transmissions in a range of makes and
models where Dexron® (II or III) or Mercon performance is required.

and this:

PERFORMANCE LEVELS
Dexron® III H, IID and II.

whether or not Castrol nominate it is their recommended product does not change the fact that Dexron, as specified by GM, is backwardly compatible with earlier Dexron specifications.

a further quote from the GM document on released when Dexron VI came out says this:
All DEXRON®-III licenses expire at the end of 2006 and will not be renewed. Beyond that date GM will only support the use of DEXRON®-VI fluids for use in Hydra-Matic transmissions. Fluids sold in the market after that date bearing claims such as “suitable for use in DEXRON®-III applications” or similar wording should be avoided. DEXRON®-VI licensed fluids are fully backward compatible and can be used in all applications covered by earlier GM ATF specifications.


this is what castrol said in 1996, ie after dexron III superceded dexron II:
CASTROL TQ DEXRON® 111 AUTOMATIC
TRANSMISSION FLUID
CASTROL TO DEXRON® III fluid is approved by General Motors to
the GM 6297 M specification. It supersedes both the Type A Suffix A,
Dexron B fluids, Dexron II C, D & E fluids, some of which are still
available from Castrol for special applications.General Motors introduced the DEXRON® III specification (GM
6297M) to achieve improved low temperature operability and
improved oxidation stability.

and recapping what i said earlier to some extent, Transmax M was so called because the name Dexron II could no longer be used. so castrol gave it a new name. that is made clear here from the same 1996 Castrol document, and you can also see that Castrol is specifically saying dexron III is recommended for severe duty in place of transmax m (ie dexron II):


TRANSMAX M
CASTROL TRANSMAX M, previously CASTROL TO DEXRON®
II D21885, satisfies the requirements of GM 6137M (1975) and is
approved by Mercedes Benz (P236.7), ZF (TE-ML 14) and BTR
(Eng) for their three speed automatic transmissions (models 39, 40
& 51 ). Castrol Transmax M is also approved for certain Peugeot
automatic transmissions.
Licensing requirements precludes reference to DEXRON® on fluids
other than DEXRON® IIE fluids from December 31, 1992.
CASTROL TRANSMAX M is suitable for a wide range of automatic
transmission applications. It is not sultable where Ford M2C-33 or
other specialist fluids are recommended. For severe duty
applications CASTROL TO DEXRON® III or TRANSMAX Z
(synthetic automatic transmission fluid) are recommended.


if you really get technical about the matter, then in fact there is actually no such thing as Dexron anything other than Dexron VI, as the name Dexron could only be applied after a/ paying GM a fee and b/ GM testing the product. as they dont licence any name other then Dexron VI, no seller can say for sure that what they sell meets the now defunct Dexron II or III standards. hence the slightly rubbery wording. so where does that leave you? in reality, however, i have no doubt that they do, and that any Dexron spec really is backwardly compatible with earlier specs.

the only things you cannot do are:
*use a dexron product in an application where a newer dexron spec is required
*use dexron VI in manual transmissions where dexron III was required.
 
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ZF maintains a list of lubricants for their products here:
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/prod...ants_steel/interoele_lists_of_lubricants.html

TE-ML 11 deals with transmissions for cars.



ZF gives you two options for the 4HP14/4HP18/4HP22/4HP24 transmissions:

1. Use ATF that has been approved by ZF (class 11A or 11B), or;

2. Use ATF that meets Dexron II or Dexron III that is of a mineral base.



The easiest option would be to use a Dexron II fluid, because most Dexron II fluids tend to be mineral.

Many Dexron III fluids tend to be partially or fully synthetic, which you shouldn't use unless it has been approved by ZF (refer to the class 11B list).

I'm of the view that the recommendations of the transmission manufacturer takes precedence.
 
if the question is "what does ZF approve for service fills" then that is no doubt the right approach.
i do not, however, think it is correct to say that if something isnt on the approved list for service fills, that it therefore should not be used. obviously a list like that is what ZF are essentially guaranteeing as ok to use, which is somewhat different. just like when they list a number of DXIII products on the document, it doesnt mean that, say, the Valvoline DX3 i have on the shelf isnt just as appropriate.

still, GM said that anything which is accords with the Dex III spec can be used in Dex II applications, and anything which accords with the Dex VI spec can by used in Dex III applications. if you look at Mobil's info for Mobil 1 synthetic ATF is says:

Compatible with mineral ATF fluids and all common seal materials
..
Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is a multi-vehicle formula recommended for use in modern high performance automobiles, SUV's, SUT's, vans and other light trucks Recommended by ExxonMobil for use in applications requiring Dexron III

GM and Mobil might be wrong, but i think it an excessively cautious approach. Mobil, for instance, is, after all, taking on legal responsibility for the accuracy of that claim, and you might think that if, just to use that as an example, Mobil 1 synthetic was not actually ok for ZF gearboxes, that the issue might have gained some profile by now. obviously the same applies to others selling dexron III type ATFs, none of which (that i have noticed) have any nuanced caveats about whether it is mineral based dexron III or otherwise. and if it did matter, then there wouldnt be much point in having a lubricant standard anyway, right?

as i noted above, if one is the sort of person to worry at this level, then there is actually no such thing as a dexron II or dexron III ATF anyway. that was only ever determinable by GM, who made the spec and did the certification. they dont do that now, so it not actually technically possible to follow ZFs requirements, because there is no way for sure of even the manufacturer knowing that their product is the same.
 
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alexander said:
if the question is "what does ZF approve for service fills" then that is no doubt the right approach.
i do not, however, think it is correct to say that if something isnt on the approved list for service fills, that it therefore should not be used. obviously a list like that is what ZF are essentially guaranteeing as ok to use, which is somewhat different. just like when they list a number of DXIII products on the document, it doesnt mean that, say, the Valvoline DX3 i have on the shelf isnt just as appropriate.
Click to expand...

Your points are completely valid, but I prefer the warm and fuzzy feeling a ZF guarantee gives me. :tongue:

alexander said:
still, GM said that anything which is accords with the Dex III spec can be used in Dex II applications, and anything which accords with the Dex VI spec can by used in Dex III applications. if you look at Mobil's info for Mobil 1 synthetic ATF is says:

Compatible with mineral ATF fluids and all common seal materials
..
Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF is a multi-vehicle formula recommended for use in modern high performance automobiles, SUV's, SUT's, vans and other light trucks Recommended by ExxonMobil for use in applications requiring Dexron III

GM and Mobil might be wrong, but i think it an excessively cautious approach.
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I don't think GM and Mobil are wrong, but given the age some of these transmissions are now approaching, some conservatism (i.e. following ZF's recommendations) wouldn't be unhelpful in my view.

alexander said:
Mobil, for instance, is, after all, taking on legal responsibility for the accuracy of that claim, and you might think that if, just to use that as an example, Mobil 1 synthetic was not actually ok for ZF gearboxes, that the issue might have gained some profile by now. obviously the same applies to others selling dexron III type ATFs, none of which (that i have noticed) have any nuanced caveats about whether it is mineral based dexron III or otherwise. and if it did matter, then there wouldnt be much point in having a lubricant standard anyway, right?
Click to expand...

M1 Synthetic ATF may well be okay to use (I'm not one to know), but as long as we have access to good 'ol tried-and-tested DII mineral ATF (not to mention cheap!) the incentive to try different fluids isn't strong.

alexander said:
as i noted above, if one is the sort of person to worry at this level, then there is actually no such thing as a dexron II or dexron III ATF anyway. that was only ever determinable by GM, who made the spec and did the certification. they dont do that now, so it not actually technically possible to follow ZFs requirements, because there is no way for sure of even the manufacturer knowing that their product is the same.
Click to expand...

ZF regularly maintains the list. Products have been added and removed from the list over the years. I'm not even actually sure if fluids have to be specced to GM's standards - as long as they satisfy ZF's tests and requirements, it goes on the list.
 
Diesel_vert said:
Your points are completely valid, but I prefer the warm and fuzzy feeling a ZF guarantee gives me. :tongue:.
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and amen to that.
it is helpful in life to have risk avoidance strategies, and particularly where it is as simple as selecting a particular ATF :)

as an aside, i will observe that i have yet to see anything discussed with respect to cars, as complicated as appropriate lubricants!
 
Alexander, you'll have Alan S rolling in his grave! I think this is a bit like advising a neighbour on purchase of a French car - the only safe option is "DON'T DO IT" - ie there is no point in extolling DIII with missionary zeal while DII equivalents remain available. Why set yourself up to get the blame if someone with an older trans tries DIII and strikes problems (for whatever reason :confused: ). Entirely different matter if there was a serious shortage of DII and there was a need to find a safe alternative.

I use Mobil ATF 220. The label states that it is "Suitable for use in applications requiring ... Dexron IID ..."

It is very reasonably priced, and quite readily obtainable. I actually buy it direct from the local Mobil depot, and they always have it in stock. My 605 seems very happy with it in both the trans (ZF 4HP18) and power steering.

Cheers

Alec
 
Armidillo said:
Alexander, you'll have Alan S rolling in his grave! I think this is a bit like advising a neighbour on purchase of a French car - the only safe option is "DON'T DO IT" - ie there is no point in extolling DIII with missionary zeal while DII equivalents remain available. Why set yourself up to get the blame if someone with an older trans tries DIII and strikes problems (for whatever reason :confused: ). Entirely different matter if there was a serious shortage of DII and there was a need to find a safe alternative.

I use Mobil ATF 220. The label states that it is "Suitable for use in applications requiring ... Dexron IID ..."

It is very reasonably priced, and quite readily obtainable. I actually buy it direct from the local Mobil depot, and they always have it in stock. My 605 seems very happy with it in both the trans (ZF 4HP18) and power steering.

Cheers

Alec
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Ditto that ^

There are too many stories of failed boxes where this advice had been ignored!!

Cheers
Chris
 
Armidillo said:
Alexander, you'll have Alan S rolling in his grave! I think this is a bit like advising a neighbour on purchase of a French car - the only safe option is "DON'T DO IT" - ie there is no point in extolling DIII with missionary zeal while DII equivalents remain available. Why set yourself up to get the blame if someone with an older trans tries DIII and strikes problems (for whatever reason :confused: ). Entirely different matter if there was a serious shortage of DII and there was a need to find a safe alternative.

I use Mobil ATF 220. The label states that it is "Suitable for use in applications requiring ... Dexron IID ..."

It is very reasonably priced, and quite readily obtainable. I actually buy it direct from the local Mobil depot, and they always have it in stock. My 605 seems very happy with it in both the trans (ZF 4HP18) and power steering.

Cheers

Alec
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Exactly Alec.

As someone who has owned and maintained a number of ZF automatic gearbox equipped Cits, and experienced the vast improvement when reverting from D3 (or equivalent) to D2 (or equivalent such as Transmax M), I think this debate being brought up again is pointless.

Others in AF who also run ZF equipped cars would agree.
 
Hands up everyone who has changed the trans filter in their ZF box or adjusted the primary band?
 
The what?

I have cleaned the strainer - does that count?

Cheers

Alec
 
i guess you cant argue with practical experience, but this means that GM got their own specs, testing, and backward compatibility wrong, and ZF are incorrectly specifically listing a whole range of Dexron III ATFs, mineral based, part synthetic, and full synthetic, in their own documentation.

that is quite a remarkable state of affairs.
 
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