Dauphine Gordini (R1901)

Dauphine Gordini (R1091)

Hi Guys,

With the stock R1901 motor (1961) is it drivable on our roads these days?

48hp sounds pretty gutless, can any Dauphine owners elaborate?

Although originality is nice, as a daily driver is this an acceptable performance?

Performance wise it wouldn't be too bad. All that power in a light body with the fairly low gearing works quite well.

Points to consider:
1) Four wheel drum brakes, well adjusted and in good condition they will work OK but certainly not up to modern standards.
2) Maintenance, lots of front suspension grease points for the king pins to keep on top of every 1500 miles.
3) Six volt electrics. If relays are fitted, and the earths are fine not too bad. But if in a drizzly Melbourne and fast moving traffic the tail lights would be tiny. Single speed wipers don't help either.

The next question is finding a decent one, rust is ravenous and eats the Dauphine in invisible places.

Overall it depends on what you do with a daily driver, for inner city toddling around a Dauphine would be fine. But as a car for travelling from the outer suburbs everyday it could get a bit tedious. It all depends on what your idea of fun and comfort is. My perspective is from using an R4 for interstate travel and inner city commuting, so an all round perspective really.

If a rear engined Renault is desired for an everyday commute, an R8 or R10 is the more practical choice and much easier to obtain parts for. But the R10 really doesn't have the flair and character of a Dauphine. A shame the later disc braked, 12V Dauphines were not sold here really.

Thanks Simon,

Well the reason I was asking was because I was going to look at one next weekend.

It has R10 front discs, but besides that original.. (not sure about the electrics)

Has been powder painted blue, and is registered. The owner mentioned that it has some engine, and gearbox leaks, and that there is some rust on the front sill.

Where are the 'unseen' rust spots for these cars?

I assume under the front wheel arches, and I remember reading something about rear end wear.. any tips of where to look?

The rear can be converted to discs easily. Rust under the front is common as is rust in the boot, bottom of doors and front guards, and of course the sills, and possibly the top edges of the guards. Various rubber mounts, bushes, seals, and engine rebuild items are still available at reasonable cost.
Second hand panels are a bit thin on the ground.

It will actually be an R1091, and would have 845cc and 40Hp in good condition. There is no synchro on first, but the box is a four speed. With discs, are quite capable in todays traffic, no servo so they need a push. Top speed about 135KPH, and so will cruise at 100 OK. Once sorted they are a reliable enough little machine with a decent boot, and loads of character.

vivid said:

Thanks Simon,

Well the reason I was asking was because I was going to look at one next weekend.

It has R10 front discs, but besides that original.. (not sure about the electrics)

Has been powder painted blue, and is registered. The owner mentioned that it has some engine, and gearbox leaks, and that there is some rust on the front sill.

Where are the 'unseen' rust spots for these cars?

I assume under the front wheel arches, and I remember reading something about rear end wear.. any tips of where to look?

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Any idea if they swapped the front crossmember for the balljoint setup from an R8/10? Or if the discs have been cobbled onto the king pin front end? I've seen some really bad conversions in the distant past on a Floride and one DG.

Starting with the easy to spot rust points, doors, under the headlights in the bonnet, outer sills, under the battery in the boot, around the C-pillar at the base and along the beading between the rear mudguard and adjacent the c-pillar. Floor of the car, particularly in the rear footwells where water accumulates. Because of the thin steel, seemingly superficial rust in the front floor can make lots of pinholes which won't be immediately obvious.

The less obvious spots are just inside the rear wheel arch at the front of the arch there is the inner mudguard. Mud accululates between the chassis rail running along the length of the car, rust nibbles at the chassis rail on the unseen side, then nibbles away at the inner mudguard which is more obvious. But it could be less obvious with the factory underseal or a patched repair.

Also the front end of the chassis rail (which is open and water creeps in) rusts from the inside out. It becomes obvious when the rust starts poking through the outer skin of the rail usually where the spring "cup" sits under the chassis rail. In extreme cases water creps along the chassis rail and makes itself obvious by rotting out the bottom edge of the inner wing where it is spotted to the chassis rail. Again it isn't really obvious if the car still has the original thick underseal in this area, or it has been patched.

Another area I've never seen rust through, but it could cause a problem. The chassis rail has two holes on its underside fairly close to the front wheels and wheel arch. If the car is used frequently of wet roads, water must enter in through these holes (also on R8/10) and could rust out the main chassis rail. I've never a rusted out chassis rail before, but it must happen in extreme wet road/salty road cars.

Also if the front wings have been replaced at some stage and the bolt holes not resealed, or water has just plain got in through the bolt holes, the front door pillar can end up rusting out, as the door hinge panel is spotted to the side door frame forming a double skin. This is usually pretty obvious unless repaired or bogged, and can also lead to the front edge of the outer sill rusting out (which seems to usually hapen before the double skin rusts too bad).

Rear end wear is usually caused by collapsed gearbox side and upper mounts as well as worn rear engine carrier rubber mounts. Worn trunnion bearings (basically needle bearings) supporting the swing axle can cause excessive fore and aft movement of the axle. If the trunnions are really worn it can spoil where the needle bearings run on the swing axle pivot.

Beware of conversions to R8/10 running gear too. They are either really good or horribly bad! Oil leaks and oil Renault's seem to go hand in hand. The camshaft pulley at the front od the motor has an oil scroll, with the main bearing also relying on a machined scroll and good bearings to stop leaks. Gearbox leaks are usually restricted to the axle boots being split, or worn input or selector shaft seals. Beware also of stripped end casing bolts, very rare but I've seen it happen.

The above obsevations are maionly from 10-15 (probably longer now thinking about it) years ago when I was looking for a DG. I never found a decent one, and Leo (who had a pristine beige example) never wanted to sell. But since then there seem to have been a few good ones that have survived and come out of the woodwork. The best bad one that I saw though was a punter who turned up to an RCC meeting to sell his car, "there is no rust in the car, it has all been replaced by fibreglass" was his honest boast of the integrity of the car. And if you have read this far, you really do deserve an elephant stamp!!

Thanks Guys,

If it is in good enough condition I will buy it.

Thanks for the advice, I have printed your replies out and will take them with me when I look at the car.

Simon, you really do scare me how much you know about these froggy cars.
I think you deserve an elephant stamp for such a detailed answer.

Thanks again,

David.

Have you seen it?

Have you been to have a look at the car yet ? Ive spoken to the bloke it sounds OK It just costs so much to transport them over to W.A. Let me know what you thought of it Cheers

Ahh, so your the WA guy.

I haven't taken a look yet, its a bit of a hike from here.
I am hoping to take a look this weekend, depending if he is on call, as he is a volunteer fire fighter. Will be a long train trip, but hopefully worth it.
Should hear from him tomorrow hopefully.

What were your impressions over the phone?

I forgot to ask him about the interiour, but I am guessing the least of problems, if I bought it.

He mentioned that he was going to send you a photo... Did he?

David.

Yes I received a photo it looks good but then a photo doesnt really tell much. I believe the front has been reupholstered. Let me know what you think cheers

Yes I received a photo it looks good but then a photo doesnt really tell much. I believe the front has been reupholstered. Let me know what you think cheers

You dont have a scanner per chance?

If he isn't on call ill be down there tomorrow anyway, but I am quite keen to see the blue it has been painted.

David.

vivid said:

You dont have a scanner per chance?

If he isn't on call ill be down there tomorrow anyway, but I am quite keen to see the blue it has been painted.

David.

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I'd echo all Simon's comments, although I doubt I could have made them all. DGs were slightly faster than R8s if I remember correctly and would be OK for general traffic but, and I retired my R8 from daily use 3 years ago for this reason, there is a particular density of traffic that simply is too hard!! Heavy traffic is fine. Very light traffic is fine. But the in-between is hard, with modern autos coming very close behind at times between traffic lights (the 1st to 2nd gearchange is one moment of concern!!).

The old DG boxes were a little fragile too - my early R8 had one too and second gear lost a tooth at about 80,000 miles (now at 300,000+km).

Having said that, I reckon they're lovely cars - always wanted a good one.

Good luck - and let us know what happens.

cheers

JohnW

Well , What Was It like??

I For one am interested in what it was like cheers

Just spoke to the owner, I was going to go down tomorrow on my day off.
Unfortunately the weather will be shocking tomorrow, and he is on 3kms of unsealed road so he doesn't want it covered in mud. I dont really want to drive it 2 hours back to Melbourne in stormy weather either.

So Sunday it is, I will let you all know what happens, and if I buy it..

David.

Hi guys.

Had a look, but after we took it for a drive, and it was idling for about 5 minutes it stopped, and couldnt get it going. Where are the fuses in these things?

The temp guage went ape on the drive, although the water didnt seem to be boiling, and the radiator wasn't hot enough to stop you holding your hand on it.

The body looks a bit rough, (a lot of putty in it!) and the engine sounds and feels good. Its a shame whoever did the paintjob didn't take much care preparing the surface, because it has ripples and sanding scores all over it. The trim looked like it had not come off for the paint, as there was paint on the uderside of the trim, and some overspray in places.

The seller will be fixing the electric probs it has, to get it drivable again, then I will go down again and make an offer.

Here are a couple of pics I took.

:bounce:

Give me a good flambe if I'm bagging the car out unfairly, as I've not seen it. But I hope it is a rare case where the actual car looks better in the metal than in pictures from the net!

That drivers door looks shocking! Also how did they fill the chrome trim holes along the side of the car, migged welds or plastic padding? Does it come with a RWC? Does a fridge magnet stick to any part of the car? No attempt to even match the retrimmed front seats to the rest of the interior, or the rest of the trim to the front seats, what were they thinking??

Has the oil ever been changed? It could just be the pic, but the sump plug doesn't look like it has been removed since the motor was painted BMC green. The temp gauge could be indicating not enough water (low water sloshing around the sender) or no thermostat causing the water to rush around too quickly, especially if the radiator was still cool.

It is always a lot easier to sort out dodgy mechanicals than it is to sort out a dodgy and bogged body. You say there is a lot of putty in the body, check it isn't hiding a lot of other nasty things.

Oh, and a Dauphine G doesn't have fuses from the factory, so unless a PO has fitted them it won't have any. Check the points and distributor cap carbon button, the carbon buttons are notorious for wearing quickly. Also the cap could be as old as the car itself and just plain worn out.

Don't be like the person who bought the building from Thomas Crown and overpay.

Simon said:

Give me a good flambe if I'm bagging the car out unfairly, as I've not seen it. But I hope it is a rare case where the actual car looks better in the metal than in pictures from the net!

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Not at all.. I am asking for feedback, and I tend to agree.

The the door is probably the worst of it.. thus the closeup. Ill post some more.

It looks good if you stand back a little. But really.. why would you bother painting it if your not going to bother prepping it properly?

Simon said:

That drivers door looks shocking! Also how did they fill the chrome trim holes along the side of the car, migged welds or plastic padding? Does it come with a RWC? Does a fridge magnet stick to any part of the car? No attempt to even match the retrimmed front seats to the rest of the interior, or the rest of the trim to the front seats, what were they thinking??

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First thing I thought.. the seats. Yea they look nice and all, but not IN that car.. Considering the great condition of the back seat.. why wouldnt you keep the original colour scheme? The sellers comment was that he had planned to do the back too "but it was in such good condition".
Just as an example the left side "RENAULT" badge was replaced with the "GORDINI" badge from the rear, so that it has "GORDINI" on both the front sides. NO idea why.. he doesnt seem to own it because its a renault. The "RENAUALT" badge was in a box of bits.
No it doesnt come with a RWC, it is registered.. but I think this would be something I would consider doing if I bought it. No idea if he has had the trim holes filled with putty or not.. I am guessing they are, as the trim is in his box of goodies. The owner claims he had the work done by someone else. By the look of it he didnt pay much for it, and its in acrylic.

Simon said:

Has the oil ever been changed? It could just be the pic, but the sump plug doesn't look like it has been removed since the motor was painted BMC green. The temp gauge could be indicating not enough water (low water sloshing around the sender) or no thermostat causing the water to rush around too quickly, especially if the radiator was still cool.

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Apparently the car has not been driven or run since it was painted 6 years ago except maybe once or twice. So it wouldnt suprise me if its the same oil. The engine did run well when it was running, started no probs from cold first time.

The radiator was full of water, no steam etc.. he told me the theromostat had been removed. Engine wise he has changed the carby setup too.

Simon said:

It is always a lot easier to sort out dodgy mechanicals than it is to sort out a dodgy and bogged body. You say there is a lot of putty in the body, check it isn't hiding a lot of other nasty things.

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I did run the magnet about the car, and most places there is still metal, but the bog job and preperation before painting is sloppy to be kind. The whole car would need to be stripped back to bare metal, and large amounts of putty replaced with metal re-inforcement I am guessing. The finish on the paint is quite nice, it astounds me that you would go to the trouble of painting it if you werent going to prepare the surface underneath properly. The only other thing I could see from underneath were some welded plates in the floor, behind the drivers and passenger seat... and that the underneath of the car had been recently sprayed with black spraypaint.

Simon said:

Oh, and a Dauphine G doesn't have fuses from the factory, so unless a PO has fitted them it won't have any. Check the points and distributor cap carbon button, the carbon buttons are notorious for wearing quickly. Also the cap could be as old as the car itself and just plain worn out.


Don't be like the person who bought the building from Thomas Crown and overpay.

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I wasn't too impressed, and he is asking 2k for it.
I am undecided if I should make him an offer.

Dauphine G

Hey, I'm not trying to bag you either but in your early mails you said the owner told you it had discs? The photos don't look anything like discs to me! Could be the photo but?
Did you check oval plate number? If this is a conversion or something I suspect the value needs checking, if it is a geuine G then someone needs to become the guardian for the future.
I guess what I am getting at is that old interesting cars need to be retained, but you owe it to yourself to make sure that you are getting what you think it is. ie no sense paying Gordini money for a Basic Dauphine. As you have been told they are discs, and don't seem to be to me, has the current owner passed on other not entirely correct info too?

It does have retro fitted discs to the front from an R10. These have an all encompassing dust shield as opposed to the skimpier dust shield of the R8 956 and 8G’s with the air scoop so that is why they look like drums. I’m not too sure of the job quality though, from the look of the pics it looks like the roll bar brackets have been nut and bolted to the chassis rail rather than welded, or have they been belt and braced with welding and bolts?

There should be recessed foot wells in the rear floor a’la R8/10/12/Fuego, they shouldn’t have been replaced just with flat plate. Also if there is rust there, I’d be suspicious of what the filler is hiding in the rest of the car.

As for the price, each to their own I guess, but with an unknown quantity like what hides under the shiny paint, it could be a bit of a minefield. Given that just a good paint job could start at $3K, if you are paying for someone to do it there is not a lot of room before overcapitalisation takes over, and before the front seats have been re-upholstered in beige and brown. Also depending on what you want to do with the car, original or just a good run about there are a few details missing, like the front badge, bumper centre and bumper “towel rail”, rear number plate light, hubcaps etc. All these things could be awkward, but not impossible, to find.