Do Citroen cars sell themselves with brochures and without Marketing

I dont care about profits and losses really I just love going to France & you switch on the TV and there are advert after advert, C15, Xsara, Espace, velsatis, Twingo, Peugeot 206, 307, Kangoo, I could go on and on....If noone knows about your product how can they buy it thats all i have to say....:D
 
Sergetov said:
Alan, what you say sounds interesting. Whilst there are always exceptions to the rule, my local Toyota dealer have been absolute bastards! They do not service my car though luckily!
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I suppose now we have got less control from Japan than there used to be, but rest assured if they're a bad dealer that they've had complaints about, have tried to sort out and their advice has been ignored, a very well mannered, well dressed and quietly spoken gentleman of Asian appearance will one day walk into his showroom, (complete with 2 to 4 minders) knock on his door and and whilst smiling as though he'd just won Lotto will advise him he'd better go looking for another franchise as of that moment.
These guys make "the General" look like a pansy; they don't stuff about I can tell you, unless they have moved into a comfort zone these days which I doubt based on current competition.
As an example, I once needed a set of rings for a Crown I owned (after a motor cooking) as I was going away for Christmas and was told by the local guy they would take "up to 3 months ex Japan." I rang head office and asked what had happened to the "dead vehicle list" they used to keep that guaranteed no car would be held up due to parts availability. Within a half hour I had a call from the boss of the Toyota section of AMI and a set of rings flown directly from Japan within 3 days, an apology from the dealer and the parts at trade price. That's how rugged they were on dealers and customer service. Could you imagine any Cit dealer even trying to match that?


Alan S
 
Thats how good service should be!

I needed a new throttle sensor for the Cressida (it had died, leaving it to only work in limp-home-mode). My mechanic had ordered one in from a dealer and I was to pick it up to save time. I got it and it was never going to fit - it was almost inverted to what I needed, if that makes sense...

They assured me their computer said it was the right part therefore I was wrong. I invited them out to see that it could not physically fit. Since the dead throttle sensors part number had worn off we had a problem! My mechanic checked on a differed cressida and its part number came up on the computer as being from a Camry!

They said they were happy to give me that part but would not return it if it did not fit ($180). I told them that was unacceptable, it had already cost me time, and that I would not pay for their incompetently managed computer system. They accused me of driving a grey jap import (!)... I rang my mechanic and he sorted them out good and proper, and the part worked in the end. But they were absolutely hopeless, and rude about it!

The number of times I've walked into a dealership and thought "what a well run business"... very rare. Why is it so hard!? They talk about this a lot on american euro car forums, if Lexus can do it, whats holding the rest back?
 
The main reason these dealerships seem to consider customers as an impediment to running a successful operation is the mentality that runs them.
The Ford dealership I started in the car business at had an old tome wheeler & dealer as it's owner. He retired and the accountant of the company appointed CEO (in todays terminology), it went broke after a couple of years. They then opened a fresh franchise; an accountant and a salesman. It went great guns for a while until the salesman guy had a heart attack & the accountant took over; it went broke within a couple of years.
The Dealer who bought out the original Toyota place I managed was an enterpeneurial type who went gangbusters for a few years then employed his own accountant in who he left too much control. The business then started to totter until eventually we convinced him to bring in an independent auditor as we had suspicions. It turned out he was screwing up big time and tickling the peter to boot. He got the chop and the business went back to profits. He sold out to the son of another large dealer who was.............you guessed it, an accountant. The whole show was down the gurgler within 3 years.
You can see the common denominator? Too much emphasis on profits and too little on customer service. Unfortunately, whilst they are a necessary evil, accountants are oblivious to anything but the bottom line; they'd all like you to believe that it isn't the way they think, but it happens sub consciously I'm sure of that.

Alan S :nownow:
 
Well, all I can say is that they are bad accountants. Spending $ on cusomter service and satisfaction is consistent with "watching the bottom line" since it maximises profits in the long run.

Focusing on next period financial performance is a recipie of disaster in a business like a dealership, I'd have thought (Not that I know much...)

I'm under the impression that reputation is crucially important to a car company (and individual dealerships too I guess), so its surprises me that firms don't do a better job of micro-managing the dealers.

Perhaps another secret to Toyota's sucess in particular is their willingness to bargain with new cars. Maybe due to some of the lowest per unit costs in the business as well as high volumes, the discounts you can get if persistent are enormous! One example, a friend of my parents paid $11,000 driveaway for a 5 door Echo manual with air-con (brand new), most of us would'nt want it at any price, but its still pretty amazing!

I wish dealer invoice prices were publicly available here, as in the USA (they are not by law, but you can still find them, even for individual dealerships, and their invioice prices for installation of extras). Puts a lot of pressure on the dealership to justify its margin!
 
Sergetov said:
Thats how good service should be!

I needed a new throttle sensor for the Cressida (it had died, leaving it to only work in limp-home-mode). My mechanic had ordered one in from a dealer and I was to pick it up to save time. I got it and it was never going to fit - it was almost inverted to what I needed, if that makes sense...

They assured me their computer said it was the right part therefore I was wrong. I invited them out to see that it could not physically fit. Since the dead throttle sensors part number had worn off we had a problem! My mechanic checked on a differed cressida and its part number came up on the computer as being from a Camry!

They said they were happy to give me that part but would not return it if it did not fit ($180). I told them that was unacceptable, it had already cost me time, and that I would not pay for their incompetently managed computer system. They accused me of driving a grey jap import (!)... I rang my mechanic and he sorted them out good and proper, and the part worked in the end. But they were absolutely hopeless, and rude about it!

The number of times I've walked into a dealership and thought "what a well run business"... very rare. Why is it so hard!? They talk about this a lot on american euro car forums, if Lexus can do it, whats holding the rest back?
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How old is the Cressida? While not excusing the dealer concerned, remember that Jap cars are taxed off the road after five years, so if your car is more than five years since last production in Japan noone is even interested in making parts for it. You will have to expect to have problems getting model specific critical parts and pay an exhorbitant price for them. It's not just Toyota - try Subaru or Nissan and you will have the same problems.

As to grey market imports, beware. The reason they come here so cheap is that they have been taxed off the road, and yes the local guys will treat you like a leper when you need parts. There is even a parallel grey parts market to service those unfortunate enough to need their services.

At least with french cars, with long model cycles & lots of common parts across models, you can still get new original parts for cars built in the 80s.

Cheers,

Barry.
 
We had confidence in the ability to sell our cars both new and secondhand.
Toyota profits were woeful in the early days with GM, Ford, Chrysler & BMC all having margins way over those the Jap cars had, any brand but particularly Toyota, and they would outbid us on any trade. The only things they didn't outbid us on of course were the Jap cars because they wer busily rubbishing them so we usually always won those deals.
What they didn't twig was that we would trade almost new Toyotas or do a deal with the distributors to get ex company cars/demos at a discounted price and would then sell them to potential new car buyers and could then both sell new cars and quit the trade ins whilst making decent profits all round.
I was given a fairly free rein on spending as it was something I personally kept a check on and allowed the advertising budget to yoyo as it was required whilst staying well within limitations when things got really quiet.
Being able to judge when advertising could be effective and when it was a waste of money was something only someone involved in the sales side of the operation could do.
A number cruncher hasn't usually got the expertise. Same applied to upgrading workshop equipment. Too many of the ones I saw were basing everything on as I say the bottom line, so to them, reducing overheads meant cutting back advertising, sacking a salesman, a mechanic and a car cleaner. The fact that sales went down, customers were screaming about lack of service to their cars and used cars took longer to get prepared for sale was offset in their opinions by the fact that they had emplyd two more juniors in the office who were now sending out the accounts so much quicker often because of the decline in business rather than an increase in efficiency. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It's something endemic to the car Industry, always has been but some are worse than others; hence the existence of this thread. :nownow:


Alan S
 
Well Guys,

I think I'll side with Alan about the Jap guys. My grandfather, uncle and parents have bought Honda Jazzs in the last year. Why ?? Most likely the dealer is brilliant to deal with (and there a good car for the $$$). My grandfathers car was found to have a graze mark on the door surround the day he went to pick it up.

Much apologies were offered, they had tried to ring him before he drove from Ballarat down to Geelong, but missed him (the inspecition prior to pickup has only just found this --A 4wd has been parked beside it and obviously slammed it's door into the Jazz).

Net result: He still took the car, it went back for repairs (at no cost) and he was given a top of the line Renault Megane for the time it took to fix this (very minor) blemish.

They appeared to bend over backwards to help my parents too. I went down with them to pick up the Jazz in there Xantia (that I was purchasing from them). Once there we realised the Xantia would be uninsured for the drive home as it's insurance was transferred to the new Jazz.... "No worries mate, grab a coffee and use my phone to work yourself out some insurance for the drive home" ... This is for the Xantia, a car they had nothing to do with.

They run a hell of a slick operation down there, and I'm sure I'd buy from them in a heartbeat if I needed a new car.

seeya,
Shane L.
 
barryg said:
How old is the Cressida? While not excusing the dealer concerned, remember that Jap cars are taxed off the road after five years, so if your car is more than five years since last production in Japan noone is even interested in making parts for it. You will have to expect to have problems getting model specific critical parts and pay an exhorbitant price for them. It's not just Toyota - try Subaru or Nissan and you will have the same problems.

As to grey market imports, beware. The reason they come here so cheap is that they have been taxed off the road, and yes the local guys will treat you like a leper when you need parts. There is even a parallel grey parts market to service those unfortunate enough to need their services.

At least with french cars, with long model cycles & lots of common parts across models, you can still get new original parts for cars built in the 80s.

Cheers,

Barry.
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My Cressida is a 1989 model that was sold and delivered here from brand new.

Parts for them are required by the Trade Practices Act to be available for ten years after the model was discontinued.

Anyway I think you've missed the point here. It was an example of poor service. They had the part they just did'nt know they did, and rather than being apoligetic they were rude about it!

They were trying to limit their liability by offering no refund for the part. I could then sue them under s.76(2) Fitness for purpose. Their attempt to limit liability in this manner carries up to an $100,000 fine if followed up by the ACCC. In any case, if their computer had have been sorted we would all have been merry.

I am wary of grey imports - Clearly they are not covered by the TPA in the same way.
 
Guys

Wow, must admit there has been a bit of discussion here since my original post, I must concur that there are dealers and then there are dealers and even sometimes salesmen or should we also say saleswomen make a difference in their personal approach to customer service and treating you properly, yeah okay there are some rude customers too that they have to deal with, anyway going back to the original thread, how do the citroen salesmen make their money with the low volumes. Do they have a higher retainer perhaps or is that why they push you towards the jap cars if they are also selling jap cars. I think I am also going to start the weird and wonderful world of dealers thread where you can post all the weird experiences you had when visiting a dealer.

Thanks all for sharing it
 
Sergetov said:
My Cressida is a 1989 model that was sold and delivered here from brand new.

Parts for them are required by the Trade Practices Act to be available for ten years after the model was discontinued.
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The car is now 15 years old, so I guess that rule doesn't apply. Available though can mean many things, like a 4 month wait time & a 4 digit price when you were expecting a 2 digit price.

Sergetov said:
Anyway I think you've missed the point here. It was an example of poor service. They had the part they just did'nt know they did, and rather than being apoligetic they were rude about it!

They were trying to limit their liability by offering no refund for the part. I could then sue them under s.76(2) Fitness for purpose. Their attempt to limit liability in this manner carries up to an $100,000 fine if followed up by the ACCC. In any case, if their computer had have been sorted we would all have been merry.
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I don't think I missed your point, I was making another point. With older jap cars you are going to have trouble. Whether you got stuffed around and treated rudely by these guys when they had the part, or they didn't have the part & apologised profusely or quoted 4 months delivery + a $1000+ price, the end result is the same - your car can't be fixed. That's my point. In some ways you were lucky - I'd rather someone was rude to me but had what I wanted than kiss my backside but not have what I want.

Sergetov said:
I am wary of grey imports - Clearly they are not covered by the TPA in the same way.
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Depending on the price, in NSW anyway, they will have to offer warranty etc if being sold by a registered dealer. The grey market parts guy will be covered by the fitness for purpose etc, but can charge & make you wait whatever he likes. Yet, I see at least a handful of Skylines & Soarers & Toyota Hilux Surfs every day - how do they keep them on the road?

Barry.
 
The car is 15 years old, but they were sold up till 1993, just within the 10 years at the time - although that was not the issues, since they did have the part.

barryg said:
I don't think I missed your point, I was making another point. With older jap cars you are going to have trouble. Whether you got stuffed around and treated rudely by these guys when they had the part, or they didn't have the part & apologised profusely or quoted 4 months delivery + a $1000+ price, the end result is the same - your car can't be fixed. That's my point. In some ways you were lucky - I'd rather someone was rude to me but had what I wanted than kiss my backside but not have what I want.


Barry.
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Whatever, your entitled to your opinion, but this thread was about marketing initially, then about poor service.

IMHO if you think jap parts are harder to come by than other brands, your kidding yourself :) but as I said, to each his own.
 
Advertising

My :2cents:
I'm kinda glad that Citroen is fairly low profile...helps me identify the other freaks out there! As a Xsara owner (and recently a Reno 19), I take pride in the fact that most people will give me the "WTF?" look, not to mention the "It's a Citroen wha?" comment. Citroen IMHO has always done things a little differently and it makes me proud to be able to carry on the tradition!

BTW I think the Trade Practices' Act stipulates a "reasonable amount of time" as the amount of time a company has to keep parts for, with a recommended example being 10 years' worth (for anyone in the Supply Chain trade, that's a logistical nightmare!)...
 
Sergetov said:
The car is 15 years old, but they were sold up till 1993, just within the 10 years at the time - although that was not the issues, since they did have the part.



Whatever, your entitled to your opinion, but this thread was about marketing initially, then about poor service.

IMHO if you think jap parts are harder to come by than other brands, your kidding yourself :) but as I said, to each his own.
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Who's kidding who here? If you think the policy of taxing cars off the road in Japan after 5 years has no effect on spare parts availability compared to non-japanese brands then you are indeed kidding yourself. Does your Cressida have EFI & breakerless ignition? Try this quick quiz: Get the price & availability of the pickup coil in the distributor and the iginition module, both of which are toyota only parts. The first is a well into 3 digits price, the second will be close to 4 digits. You may also find that they don't have any, as most people in this situation decide that is more than the car is worth, so it gets scrapped. In the US availability of ignition modules is so bad that some enterprising person now sells a kit to make your own.

The equivalent parts for Peugoet/Citroen are easily available from Bosch, right back to the early 80's.

To get back to service/sales, this is I think a critical area for Citroen. Having to go across town to get your car fixed is a big deterrent to sales, and having several goes at getting things fixed is also not good. If you look at the complaints for Citroen in the UK, a lot of them have as the root cause poor dealer service. Yet, (in Sydney anyway) for the older Peugeot/Citroen cars it is pretty easy to get good service, as there are a number of specialists who do good work, including some of the dealers. Does anyone specialise in fixing old Toyotas?

Barry.
 
UFO said:
Gents
Ed Rowe of ATECO is a very masterful and experienced marketing man. I think he will be keeping the WRC card up his sleeve for the right time and place.
Wait and see.

Another thing that needs to be considered is having the dealerships and product stock in place to supply your marketing campaign. Slow and steady wins the race...

My:2cents:
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If he's so masterful and experienced, why doesn't he let the press review the cars? They do well in international magazines. No Cit has ever been reviewed by the Australian press as far as I can tell. Wheels publicly shamed ATECO in the December issue in their COTY preview for not giving them any cars. Although Wheels is now very partisan to local dinosaur product, Wheels has in the past hired cars from rental companies to test them if the importer / manufacturer is not amiable. This rarely turns out well for the importer.

It's amazing anyone buys them at all. In my opinion, my ginger cat has more sense than this guy.

Andrew
 
barryg said:
Yet, I see at least a handful of Skylines & Soarers & Toyota Hilux Surfs every day - how do they keep them on the road? Barry.
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Expensively ... just about every Surf I've come across eventually has premature engine failure of some sort (where they drop in another donk) and friends' skylines are often off the road for 4-6 weeks at a time awaiting spare parts from Japan (at crazy prices). True I've had to wait for parts from France .. but that was rare, most are 1-2 days away in SYD.

- XTC -
 
XTC206 said:
True I've had to wait for parts from France .. but that was rare, most are 1-2 days away in SYD.

- XTC -
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Except if they have to be road freighted, in which they can take up to 2 weeks. When my car was being repaired, they managed to get the parts for the grill over from France faster than they could get the rest of the parts from the east.

Troy.
 
vanderaj said:
If he's so masterful and experienced, why doesn't he let the press review the cars? They do well in international magazines. No Cit has ever been reviewed by the Australian press as far as I can tell. Wheels publicly shamed ATECO in the December issue in their COTY preview for not giving them any cars. Although Wheels is now very partisan to local dinosaur product, Wheels has in the past hired cars from rental companies to test them if the importer / manufacturer is not amiable. This rarely turns out well for the importer.

It's amazing anyone buys them at all. In my opinion, my ginger cat has more sense than this guy.

Andrew
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To paraphrase Ed's comments at the CCC of NSW meeting last night.

ATECO is currently receiving 40 orders per month for C2s. They are only able to get about 12 a month out of the factory (due to the extremely high sales levels in Europe etc). So think about it - if you are already "selling" more than you can get, why would you want/need or even be able to supply a car to a motoring magazine for a test drive? Especially if that magazine is now blatantly anti anything that is not aussie (esp with a V8) or techno jap.

It was a very interesting discussion that we had with Edward. A very clever and switched on marketing person.:)
 
UFO said:
ATECO is currently receiving 40 orders per month for C2s. They are only able to get about 12 a month out of the factory (due to the extremely high sales levels in Europe etc).
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I wonder how much this has affected Citroen's sale potential over here. It seems like everytime a new model is released here, there are problems getting supply from the factory. There have probably been a good number of potential buyer's who have been turned off buying a car because they have been unable to get one or have to wait months to get it.

Troy.
 
TroyO said:
I wonder how much this has affected Citroen's sale potential over here. It seems like everytime a new model is released here, there are problems getting supply from the factory. There have probably been a good number of potential buyer's who have been turned off buying a car because they have been unable to get one or have to wait months to get it.

Troy.
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I've wondered that also. If sales of the C4 match the reviews I've seen so far (very positive!) how will that affect supply to Australia - i think we can guess.
 
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