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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Dano's Avatar
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    Default 69 404 restoration

    Hi All
    Well since my last post this is how far I have progressed with the restoration. The more I stripped it back, the easier it was to make the decision to take it back to a bare shell. There was more rust and structural damage then I expected (Maybe I was just hopeful).
    It would appear that the car has been involved in at least two substantial accidents in the past. The front right corner and the rear end both should signs of previous repairs, of which neither have been done well.
    Around both sides at the bottom of the front windscreen the rust damage is extensive. On the right side the holes are big enough to be able to see through into the cabin area. The boot area is also showing signs of being worse for wear due to the poor repairs. It looks as though there was no priming of rust prevention works done whilst it was being repaired. Also the brace (?) plate that runs from the boot floor up to the top of the inner guard is not connected. You can see where the spot welds have either broken or been separated, but not reattached. The floor around the back right hand corner has rusted through and there is evidence of rust damage across the back were the floor meets the vertical panel between the tail lights. As a result I am going to replace the boot floor, the water channels down either side of the boot and the box section under the bumper bar. I have been lucky enough to pick up a couple of rust free channels and fin sections for the rear guards. Currently I am carefully using a spot weld removal bit to split the inner fin/channel sections. If you donít push too hard, you can feel the bit going through the inner panel and not damage or score the outer guard. Too much pressure and it goes straight through both layers.
    The upshot of buying a complete car is, although the internal trims werenít the best, they were complete so they can used as patterns when replacing them.
    At this stage there is no plan to touch the gearbox or diff. Except for replacing seals where applicable. There appears to be no play in either. When draining the diff oil there was no sign of any brass floaty bits. I couldnít feel any either when I rubbed some of the oil between my fingers. Eventually everything else will be overhauled. If anyone has a set of good rear reflectors for sale I would be interested to hear from you.
    Meeting fellow Frogger Marty 404, has been a bonus. His car had rust in the same areas as mine and his advice/suggestions have been invaluable, considering I have never done and panel work before.
    The plan is to put it back on the road in an as original condition as possible when it is finished. Currently it is white, but I will repaint it Sunburst Brown with a black interior. Was Black an original interior colour in 1969? White is so boring! Does anyone know what the colour codes are for Sunburst Brown?
    Cheers
    Dano

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  2. #2
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    Default Marty 404

    WOW Dano you really have stripped it since I saw it last its great to see you being so thorough. The rear axle looks deceivingly simple it must have taken a while to pull apart. And your garage is so tidy how are the plans for the rotating stand in the citroen forum there are some pics of others.
    Hope to see you at the French car day for some inspiration.

  3. #3
    IWS
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    In reply to your question about black as an original interior colour - yes it was. I had '68 404 Wagon, which I purchased in '77 and it had black interior.

    Is the colour you mean that of the 504 in the photo attached ?
    If so, I'm not sure of the colour code that you are seeking for the repaint - but it will go well with the black interior!

    Ian.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 69 404 restoration-dsc00253.jpg  
    Last edited by IWS; 7th July 2012 at 06:31 PM. Reason: fix typing :-(

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    Quote Originally Posted by IWS View Post
    In reply to your question about black as an original interior colour - yes it was. I had '68 404 Wagon, which I purchased in '77 and it had black interior.

    Is the colour you mean that of the 504 in the photo attached ?
    If so, I'm not sure of the colour code that you are seeking for the repaint - but it will go well with the black interior!

    Ian.
    That's not Sunburst Brown, the 1970 and 1971 504s had Sunburst Brown, also a chocolate colour called Latrobe Brown.
    The later car in the photo is another brown altogether.
    Graham

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    I had a 70 model 404 sedan in sunburst brown many years ago. If you can't find the paint codes, perhaps a review of the paint charts will help you come up with something close, and then a liitle black or a little yellow might get it right!
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    Default Thanks guys.

    Thanks for your posts and info re upholstery and colours.

    IWS, thanks for your photo/suggestion, but that isn't the colour I plan on using. The image below is the colour I was talking about. This car was being displayed at the Perth display a few years ago.

    My '70 404 was this colour, so the rebuild is a bit of a trip down memory lane. It was a genuine one owner with low miles (as it was back then). But unfortunately it came to a rough end when I rolled it. A classic case of driving ability outweighing ability.

    Went to the Grand Display of French Cars in Brisbane earlier today, it was time well spent. There was a couple of really nice genuine 404's that hepled to confirm a few questions I had about features etc.

    Dano
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano View Post
    Thanks for your posts and info re upholstery and colours.

    IWS, thanks for your photo/suggestion, but that isn't the colour I plan on using. The image below is the colour I was talking about. This car was being displayed at the Perth display a few years ago.

    My '70 404 was this colour, so the rebuild is a bit of a trip down memory lane. It was a genuine one owner with low miles (as it was back then). But unfortunately it came to a rough end when I rolled it. A classic case of driving ability outweighing ability.

    Went to the Grand Display of French Cars in Brisbane earlier today, it was time well spent. There was a couple of really nice genuine 404's that hepled to confirm a few questions I had about features etc.

    Dano
    Hi all,
    Progress has been a little slow so far. Not having restored a car before, at times I am unsure what I should be doing or in which order.
    During the stripping process I took heaps of photos (you have to love digital cameras) of just about every step and piece removed, both in situ and on the ground. Also every nut, bolt, wiring loom and piece of trim was bagged, tagged and stored. As this is going to be a long term project, I thought it was best not to trust my memory.
    As stated in an earlier post, the replacement engine I sourced was an early one (1965 era according to the engine number) and as I want the car to be as close to original when finished, I had to find a later model engine. Thanks to Bruce Llewellyn the problem was solved. He had an XC6 motor, which he knew the complete history of, so there should be no nasty surprises when it comes to rebuilding time.His advice about other issues has also been invaluable.
    The more parts I removed, the more rust I found. To get the body back into shape there is going to be a fair amount of cutting, fabricating and replacing of sections to get it back into shape. The TAFE welding course Iíve just completed will certainly pay for itself.
    Originally I was going to fabricate a rotisserie to help make the welding process a little easier, but with the amount of rust in the body in key areas, there was nothing stable enough to swing it off. So the plan now is to just lower it off the axle stands and roll it over onto her side. I will place some old tyres under the body along sill frames and gutter sections to protect the sides.
    The areas that need repairing are,
    The three layers of metal under both sides where the windscreen panel, bulkhead and inner guards meet.
    The channel across the car under the windscreen.
    The two sub-frames under the front floors.
    The radiator support cross member.
    The sole plates under the under the two front chassis rails.
    The rear channel and panel between the taillights and jacking points.
    The boot floor or sections of may be replaced as well. But I wonít know until I remove the rear panels.
    The water channels on both sides of the boot and some of the channel along the top.
    A small section at the top of the rear windscreen, where is at least one pin hole of rust evident.
    Spent the last week removing panels and stripping donor parts, in preparation for the repairs. These included,
    The panel under the windscreen.
    The front buttress (panel between the inner guards that houses the radiator etc.) The original part was damaged and poorly repaired in a previous accident. Also sections had been hacked out to fit a 505 radiator, when a 504 motor installed.
    That should keep an inexperienced welder/fabricator busy for a while.
    Last Friday I spent some time with Marty404, looking at his restoration project and fibre glassing up the outside of the glovebox shells in both our cars. There were both in fairly good condition, so it was more of a preventative measure. Leaving the insides as cardboard will still make them look original.Because his car had rust in some of the same places as mine, I will be able to use some of the templates he has created to fabricate replacement sections. Being able to talk to Marty, and seeing his repairs have been a huge help.
    Thatís it for now.
    Cheers,

    Dano
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Dano,
    The colour of the 404 pictured in your post *6 is.. Dulon E type Laquer "Sunburst Brown" 566-11430.
    All this from its Perth owner Gordon.

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    Thanks Wildebeest

    Greatly appreciate it. Now all I have to do is convince the wife that it is a good colour. I think it will end up being white again.

    Cheers,

    Dano

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    A 1965 engine is slightly questionable as regards compatibility. Earlier 404s had 3 bearing crankshafts, but I'm not sure of the change-over year. They are not a desirable motor (in comparison anyway). 1965 engines would have run a generator, whereas you would run an alternator, so your brackets would be different
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    Widebeest: is that the colour universally known throught the 70's as baby shit yellow?

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    The brown looks good when in good knic a bit less common you should use it and get 'Poogeot' number plates, How about the green one next to it in the photo

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    Default Re: 69 404 restoration

    That's a great looking colour for a 404.

    Anyway in my opinion an old car in really good condition with shiny paint and chrome looks good in any colour.
    John W

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    Previous: 2005 407 HDI manual sedan, 1980 504 GL, 1990 405 Mi16, 1977 504 GL Special, 1984 505 SRD Turbo



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    Default 404 Chassis Specifications/Measurements

    Hi,

    Would anyone know where I could obtain a copy of the specifications for realigning a 404 chassis. I am looking for information similar to that which is displayed in the image below for a 505.

    69 404 restoration-505-alignment-specs.jpg

    Due to the amount of rework (rust removal) being done on my restoration project, this information would be very helpful.

    So far the radiator support panel, front panel between the inner guards, sole plates along the front sub-frames, buttress panels and badly rusted sections of floor under the buttress panels have all been removed. The replacements sections are either new (ex Franzose) or been fabricated using original parts that I have been lucky enough to borrow and use as templates. Although what was left of the inner guards was braced, there is still a fair bit of movement in them, thus the request for information. It would be good to ensure the chassis is straight prior to welding in the new sections.

    Likewise, once the front is repaired, the rear end will undergo a similar overhaul. The panel between the tail lights, rear jacking points, cross-member and some sections of the boot floor will be replaced, again with either new or re-fabricated parts. See photos.

    Cheers,

    Dano
    69 404 restoration-img_2.jpg69 404 restoration-img_6.jpg69 404 restoration-img_7.jpg69 404 restoration-img_9.jpg69 404 restoration-img_5.jpg69 404 restoration-img_15.jpg69 404 restoration-img_16.jpg

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano View Post
    Hi,

    Would anyone know where I could obtain a copy of the specifications for realigning a 404 chassis. I am looking for information similar to that which is displayed in the image below for a 505.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Due to the amount of rework (rust removal) being done on my restoration project, this information would be very helpful.

    So far the radiator support panel, front panel between the inner guards, sole plates along the front sub-frames, buttress panels and badly rusted sections of floor under the buttress panels have all been removed. The replacements sections are either new (ex Franzose) or been fabricated using original parts that I have been lucky enough to borrow and use as templates. Although what was left of the inner guards was braced, there is still a fair bit of movement in them, thus the request for information. It would be good to ensure the chassis is straight prior to welding in the new sections.

    Likewise, once the front is repaired, the rear end will undergo a similar overhaul. The panel between the tail lights, rear jacking points, cross-member and some sections of the boot floor will be replaced, again with either new or re-fabricated parts. See photos.

    Cheers,

    Dano
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have nothing this time unfortunately.

    The manual only shows the hull fitted to Cellette body bench (custom made for the 404?).

    However , if you pm your email address I'll email the full 404 Factory manual in pdf format.
    Mutual Respect is Contagious


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    Hi robmac,

    I appreciate your offer, but I was fortunate enough to obtain genuine copies of the workshop manual and the spare parts manuals a few months ago. The parts manuals have been an absolute God send, especially sourcing parts via Ebay etc.

    I've seen a French journal/manual titled Revue Technique Carrosserie (Body) on EBay France which covers 404 & 204 coupes and convertibles. So I am now searching for an English version that covers sedans. I'll let you know how I get on.

    Cheers

    Dano

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    Hi Dano,

    Some of those bits look familiar...Glad you got that front cut apart so neatly!

    Bruce.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peujohn View Post
    That's a great looking colour for a 404.

    Anyway in my opinion an old car in really good condition with shiny paint and chrome looks good in any colour.
    Except, perhaps - pink.

    404's came out in pink one year , probably 1964. I remember seeing one for sale in a car yard in Blabkburn (Vic) in the mid 1970s, just after I bought my first 404.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dano View Post
    Hi robmac,

    I appreciate your offer, but I was fortunate enough to obtain genuine copies of the workshop manual and the spare parts manuals a few months ago. The parts manuals have been an absolute God send, especially sourcing parts via Ebay etc.

    I've seen a French journal/manual titled Revue Technique Carrosserie (Body) on EBay France which covers 404 & 204 coupes and convertibles. So I am now searching for an English version that covers sedans. I'll let you know how I get on.

    Cheers

    Dano
    Hi Dan

    Your request sent me rooting through some boxes which remain - mostly - unpacked from our most recent move. I found a complete 404 manual but like yours it does not give specs for the chassis.

    Let me know if you find what you're looking for, we may be able to share costs.

    Do you - or anyone here - have the parts manual in a pdf format?

    All the best

    Peter
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  20. #20
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    Don’t go looking for things you don’t want to see!!!!

    It has been about three months since any serious work has been done on the Four 0, but today with the help of a few friends (Marty404 and Manny) some real progress took place.

    A while ago, the decision was made to replace both the front inner guard (still available through Franzose) as the existing ones are fairly rusted in parts and damaged whilst removing the lower sole plates and jacking points. The new guards were fabricated in Argentina and let’s just say they don’t have the same quality control procedures as the original Peugeot parts. The guards are two-piece and spot welded together on a fold about 25 mm from the top (see photos). Who knows why they weren’t pressed as one piece. The jacking points were fabricated from light gauge sheet metal folded into shape and not fully enclosed at the ends (Water would just run down the tubes and into the sub-frames). The folded jacking point/tubes were not weld closed. The bumper bar mounts just looked wrong! Manny, TIG welded the gaps closed, inserted blanking plates at the ends of the jacking tubes, stitched the two parts of the inner guard together to prevent moisture getting between the overlaps and to give them some added strength and the original bumper bar supports were grafted into place. Even after having to do this rework, they are still a lot better then the originals.

    Like all good Four 0’s the panel under the windscreen had rusted out badly in the lower corners and around where the wiper arm spindles come through. Whilst trawling the internet for hours (OK, days and months) I managed to find a genuine Peugeot new old stock (NOS) windscreen panel.

    With two of us (Marty404) working on it, it took about 2 hours to brace the A pillars and drill out all the spot-welds that hold the 3 layers together. That is when I found what I didn’t want to see, more rust on the inner panels. It will take some serious fabrication work to re-manufacture the damaged areas.

    The next step is to make a fibreglass mould of the inner panel and try to fabricate a new one using the glass mould as a jig.

    Ah well, I have always said it was to be a long-term project.

    On the upside though, I have been able to acquire just about very body panel, trim item, door rubbers and seals of all shapes and sizes etc. required to completely restore the body. Most of these are NOS.

    What did we do before the internet?

    69 404 restoration-seam-weld.jpg69 404 restoration-seam-weld-2.jpg69 404 restoration-split-jack-point.jpg69 404 restoration-2nd-split-jack-point.jpg69 404 restoration-remove-jacking-point.jpg69 404 restoration-panel-removal.jpg69 404 restoration-oh-no-.jpg69 404 restoration-could-worse.jpg69 404 restoration-worse.jpg69 404 restoration-windscreen-panel.jpg

  21. #21
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    It has been awhile since I’ve been able to get any serious work done on my 404. Now I’m on holidays, I should get a good crack at it over the next few weeks.

    As previously stated there is a fair amount of rust under the windscreen on both sides. The to date, I’ve removed the bay window panel, the bonnet bracket support panel and finally the panel that seals the outside vents into the cabin (?). As this part is no longer available (wishful thinking), it will need to be formed from scratch. Besides being bowed across the front and tapered up on both sides, it also has three different inclines. Because of this, it was decided to make a fibreglass mould just in case the original panel was too badly distorted when removing.
    69 404 restoration-cut-packed-foam.jpg69 404 restoration-plenty-bog.jpg69 404 restoration-ugly-but-effective.jpg

    A friend suggested that the panel be tape with brown plastic packing tape to help with the mould releasing process. It was thought that the glass might adhere to firmly to the rusted and pitted surface. Once taped a releasing agent wax was applied. Combined it worked a treat the mould came away nicely. A few air bubbles etc, but in the main, a pretty good mould was produced.
    69 404 restoration-releasing-nicely.jpg
    The remaining spot welds were drilled out and the panel was removed. To my surprise, this panel is quite thin, maybe .7 of a mm. The mould and panel will be taken to a friend’s engineering/fabrication workshop and he’ll produce a new one using the parts as templates.
    69 404 restoration-removing-spot-welds.jpg

    When the panel was removed, the true extent of the rust damage was revealed, the remaining drain panel will require some patchwork as well. There is more rust on the folded section that runs down into the air vent channel and the vertical dash panel. The dash panel will be cut away (About 200 mm) on both corners to get to the rusted sections. This rust was where water over the years has seeped in under the original body filler used to seal the panel during assembly. To be honest the whole corner section where all these panels meet is just plain ugly and all brazed together to give it some strength. In a document about assembling the 404 (in French), I received from the Peugeot Museum, it gives instructions on how to hold it altogether with brazing. Interestingly it also depicts all the various spot welding tips required to complete the assembly of the whole car. There are only four official measurements for aligning the body. They are, between the holes where the cross member bolts onto the chassis rails, between the strut tower mounts on the inner guards, the diagonals across the engine bay and the rear fin from the taillight tip to the base of the rear windscreen. The last measurement has a tolerance on +/- 5mm. Nothing like a bit of accuracy!
    The company who is going to do sandblast the body suggests soaking the body in an acidic solution of some type (not sure of the name) to help make the process easier and get into all the cracks and crevices. Sounds logical, but I am a little dubious about what this will do to all the original red undercoat within the various channel sections of the chassis, ie roof panels A,B&C pillars, the side sills etc… If it etches the paint away, how would you get back into there to reprime it……… I would appreciate any feedback suggestions about this.

    69 404 restoration-panel-removed.jpg69 404 restoration-not-surprised-anymore.jpg69 404 restoration-dash-panel-cut.jpg69 404 restoration-patch-repairs-required.jpg

    Keep you posted on my slow process.

    Dano

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    Today was a good day. After heaps of procrastination and waiting for front panels to be made, I decided to start dismantling the rear end.

    Stepping back a few weeks, I made the decision to remove the panel under the rear windscreen and above the boot, as it just had too many rusty places or areas starting to show signs of rust. The friend who was making the front panels unfortunately has taken ill and will be out of action for awhile, so I've had to find a new fabricator. The panels are just to tricky to try to make. There are some things that a person with no experience should tackle and multiple fold and bent panels is one of them69 404 restoration-dscn0101.jpg

    As luck would have it, a colleague at work who is restoring a MG, put me on to a guy he uses. He is 71 years young and does every thing by hand. You should see his workshop, it is just amazing, bits and pieces everywhere and in the middle of all the organised chaos is the work bench. Neat tidy and all his tools laid out. It is like walking back in time to a workshop from around the early fifties.

    To help get things moving a fabricated a pretty dodgy fibreglass mould69 404 restoration-dscn0118.jpg , but it will do the job. The fabricator says with it and what ever I can salvage out of the original panel he'll be able to make an exact fit. (I'll post photos when the parts are finished)

    Back to today. After drilling what seemed like a thousand spot welds and a fair bit of grinding and cutting, I successfully removed the windscreen panel the two inner panels on the rear wings and all the rear panels between the outer guards. 69 404 restoration-dscn0150.jpg 69 404 restoration-dscn0156.jpg

    like with very other area of this car I've touched, I have found some more areas that will require some repairs/modifications before I can start to weld back the new parts. Being on holidays for the next two weeks I hope to make some real progress.

    Cheers

    Dano

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    Yesterday,I finished stripping the rear panels. As I thought, the car has definitely been in three accidents over the years. There was was some very ugly welding and brazing all around the right rear corner.

    The jacking points and corner support panels are all in a fairly poor state. I've started to fabricate new ones, hopefully they will be finished on Sunday. Then will come the new floor sections. The complete corners will be removed and replace on both sides. When removing the right jacking point. I found it to be packed solid with dried mud. This got me thinking that besides the dodgy repair after it was rear ended, it may have spent some time under water as well?

    It is not all bad though, today I received a set of brand new front discs in the mail. I've been searching for these since I started the restoration. I found them about a year ago and thought that they were just too expensive. Anyhow after a year of searching etc, I contacted the seller in Germany and he still had them. No the price hadn't moved, but still quite expensive compared to all the other parts I have bought over the last two and a bit years, (The most expensive items to date). But a car without brakes is useless.

    More to come.

    69 404 restoration-dscn0198.jpg69 404 restoration-dscn0165.jpg69 404 restoration-dscn0175.jpg69 404 restoration-dscn0180.jpg69 404 restoration-dscn0219.jpg69 404 restoration-dscn0197.jpg69 404 restoration-dscn0218.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 69 404 restoration-dscn0196.jpg   69 404 restoration-dscn0200.jpg  

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! Dano's Avatar
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    Brisbane
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    Default Looking for a new shell

    Gíday,

    Before I progress any further on my project, I thought Iíd see if there are any half reasonable late model 404 shells out there. Preferably a1968 onwards is ideal, but not essential. I am not looking for a completely rust free shell, although that would be good.

    Itís just my current project has rust in and around the bottom of the right wheel arch, boot floor and the support panel that runs up the wheel arch from the floor to just under the parcel tray. I could just cut out the affected sections and patch them, but Iíd just never know if all the rust had been removed. To do it thoroughly I think would require removing the boot floor and outer guard etc. There are other areas that need repair as well.

    Over the last two years Iíve purchased and fabricated all the panels etc. to remove rust from the usual places and others that Iíve found due to the extent of the stripping back process. Parts purchased include both front buttresses, front and rear cross-members, rear taillight, tail section between lights, inner rear fin panels and both front and rear panel under the windscreens.

    I guess the bottom line is I would prefer to be starting with a better base.

    So, if you are in the south of Rockhampton or north of Port Macquarie (inland is OK as well) and you have or know of someone with a shell or wreck that may do the job, please send me an email. Photos would also be good.

    Cheers,

    Dano

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Melbourne / Caulfield
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    15,826

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dano View Post
    G’day,

    Before I progress any further on my project, I thought I’d see if there are any half reasonable late model 404 shells out there. Preferably a1968 onwards is ideal, but not essential. I am not looking for a completely rust free shell, although that would be good.

    It’s just my current project has rust in and around the bottom of the right wheel arch, boot floor and the support panel that runs up the wheel arch from the floor to just under the parcel tray. I could just cut out the affected sections and patch them, but I’d just never know if all the rust had been removed. To do it thoroughly I think would require removing the boot floor and outer guard etc. There are other areas that need repair as well.

    Over the last two years I’ve purchased and fabricated all the panels etc. to remove rust from the usual places and others that I’ve found due to the extent of the stripping back process. Parts purchased include both front buttresses, front and rear cross-members, rear taillight, tail section between lights, inner rear fin panels and both front and rear panel under the windscreens.

    I guess the bottom line is I would prefer to be starting with a better base.

    So, if you are in the south of Rockhampton or north of Port Macquarie (inland is OK as well) and you have or know of someone with a shell or wreck that may do the job, please send me an email. Photos would also be good.

    Cheers,

    Dano
    Hi Dano,

    You have done so much work now it seems a pity to stop when the end is in sight. The boot floor and rocker panel under rear bumper is not a difficult repair. The panel can be fabricated in a bender and shrunk to shape. Even if you do some cut and shut to form the initial shape.

    And depending on boot rust much can be repaired in situ.

    I'd suggest a 404 without rust in all the usual spots is either kept by a optimistic (or vision impaired) owner. Or has been fully restored.

    Even many "fully" restored cars have new rust, in different places, appearing several years after restoration. So it's a life long job to try to keep them rust free.

    I hope this encourages you to keep going with shell you have. Because IMO anything you purchase will be similar or worse and the difference will in the stage of rust.

    You are well advanced in getting rid of the rust and have been more diligent than many.

    So I'd keep going. And I wish the very best of luck in what seems to be an never ending mission.

    cheers

    Rob
    CarNut likes this.
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