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Thread: 504 rebirth

  1. #76
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    The fuel injection pump is designed to give max fuel with zero vacuum, this means the delivery pistons are moving their full amount of travel.
    Do you really think that if the pressure went positive then somehow more travel would be found for those pistons?
    Have a look at how these pumps work, it is not about simply opening injectors with the fuel pressure having a bearing on amount of fuel, it is all about mechanically accuated pistons giving varying amounts of fuel according to their stroke which is controlled by manifold pressure..
    Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by leftcoast View Post
    but the vacuum diaphragm in the pump itself must have a limit and would only be pumping petrol not boosted air, so if you were to keep up the fuel pressure from the tank to match the fuel needed at boost levels it should be ok.

    if 9psi (std boost) fuel pressure can be achieved after the pump at the injectors and working with a rising rate fuel regulator before and after the pump with return lines also after the pump should be ok no - hahaha i got no idear but gonna try it anyway screw it, it would have to be pretty well tuned i say.



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    also got to find out what what pressure this filter thing can max out at
    Last edited by GRAHAM WALLIS; 18th January 2014 at 09:35 PM.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    The fuel injection pump is designed to give max fuel with zero vacuum, this means the delivery pistons are moving their full amount of travel.
    Do you really think that if the pressure went positive then somehow more travel would be found for those pistons?
    Have a look at how these pumps work.
    Graham
    I recall London-Sydney TI cars having trouble making up hills.

    IMO KF injection is not suited to extensive mods.

    It's best to move on to meqasquirt, or even LPG where you have a free choice of cams,

    It's also easier to source 505 square port engines, with the solid crank and use a later SLI injection head. These are a better engine to spend heaps of money on.

    Sadly, Kugelfischer has had it's day especially when one compares tuning a KF and looks at tuning MS with PC.



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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    It's best to move on to meqasquirt, or even LPG where you have a free choice of cams,
    I agree, and don't forget the option of R1 carbs So smooth
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

  4. #79
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    Kugelfischer is very different to 'conventional' modern EFI. In an electronically controlled injection system with electronic solenoid injection valves, increasing the fuel pressure will to some point force more fuel through the injectors given the same opening time. However, in the KF system, the pump is a positive displacement system, so the amount of fuel injected is exactly the bore and stroke of the piston in the pump. Fuel pressure is provided by the electric fuel pump purely to keep the KF pump constantly primed with filtered fuel.

    The BMW Turbos used quite a different KF system, with no manifold pressure compensation. The quantity of fuel injected was a function purely of engine RPM, engine temperature and throttle position. There was a linkage between the throttle and the injection pump to provide the engine load reference. These engines ran very rich while the turbo spooled up, and allowed for very little in the way of engine modification or boost increase. To adjust the fuel 'map' requires machining new metering cones inside the pump, a very time consuming, iterative and therefore expensive process, and would in all likelihood end up in a worse tune.

    Definitely go for Megasquirt. It is so easy to install, and even easier to tune. The only fabrication you would require is a fuel rail.


    Quote Originally Posted by leftcoast View Post
    but the vacuum diaphragm in the pump itself must have a limit and would only be pumping petrol not boosted air, so if you were to keep up the fuel pressure from the tank to match the fuel needed at boost levels it should be ok.

    if 9psi (std boost) fuel pressure can be achieved after the pump at the injectors and working with a rising rate fuel regulator before and after the pump with return lines also after the pump should be ok no - hahaha i got no idear but gonna try it anyway screw it, it would have to be pretty well tuned i say.



    also got to find out what what pressure this filter thing can max out at
    Scotty

    Brisbane, now with a garage and workshop again!

    1956 Peugeot 403 - resto project - can you help with parts?

    1969 Peugeot 504 - daily driver project

    1977 Peugeot 604 Ti - factory 5 speed injected

    1989 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo - 5 speed wagon - For Sale

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - retrofitted ES9J4S with Megasquirt 2 running VVT and 5 speed manual

    2005 Peugeot 607 - Luxobarge / Land Yacht

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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by callipygous View Post
    I agree, and don't forget the option of R1 carbs So smooth
    We haven't seen your dyno figures yet

    And although your carb conversion is magnificent workmanship I'd be concerned about term long reliability and how well it will hold tune.

    I'd venture a guess that the money spent would be in excess of an EFI conversion.

    This is in no way a criticism of the hard work you have done. But simply reflects economics, ease of tuning of doing engine performance modifications.

    You chose a carb conversion : nearly everyone else chooses EFI. IMO it's a case of anything is possible, but what is best bang for buck!



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  6. #81
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    Well another option is using four throttle bodies off a late model sports bike Cheap, comes with a fuel rail... need to make a manifold and airbox just how I have done, though. I've often wondered if I would have been better off doing it with EFI, but I'm more than happy with four carbs. It's kind of cool

    504 rebirth-img_0560.jpg
    Last edited by callipygous; 19th January 2014 at 09:57 AM.
    Peugeot 504 Intercooled T04 Turbo, Four Mikuni R1 carburettors, external waste gate, Microsquirt ignition, 5 speed.

  7. #82
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    love the 4 carbs set up, had thought about it or something huge like that or the EFIv8 volvo v6 swap, but still experimenting with the block because i know there is an awesome engine with a strong internals there and i dont wanna let the valves touch the springs again-

    has anybody done anything to the piston walls? any one bored them out before? can you get pre made thicker ones (could be a cnc job) or even new stock ones? hmmm 2.1L 504, hahaha

    i would love on tap 150 bhp NA power, maybe low boost turbo to get to 170bhp cuz its a fairly heavy car, with bottom/top work and turbo, confident 200-220bhp but have not found much help on the internal upgrades except custom one off machined builds,

    if you havnt seen Corbans zero ****s given RX7, look it up on you tube, you will fall in love and look beyond my goal of just another 504 on the streets, like callyipgous individual tastes pay off

  8. #83
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    Ok I need more help running the basic Ti set up,


    since I have done the radiator swap which led to an air filter swap I think the vacuum levels have changed.
    upon first startup It starts and idles ok after a few revs compression popped out the air filter, I then used the flywheel hole and got top dead spun the dizzy to spark plug one, which matches up to the marks I put on before I removed the dizzy ages ago.

    so I stuck a timing gun on it and the pulley mark was at least 50mm left of the timing mark that is on the timing chain cover,
    then I remembered the crankshaft notch for the half moon guide pin for the main pulley was badly worn and regretting not changing it now or welding it up when I had the engine apart.
    it allows some movement of the pulley, anyway pulley is locked on but not dead on where its meant to be and is now giving me timing mark issues,


    yes I'm a knob should of replaced the crank!!!!!


    now I'm pretty sure I got all the chains and KF pump belt spot on.
    After the timing guess check it starts and runs- revs freely to 5k - so I went around the block


    good take off till about 50kmh when using half throttle and then feels a bit sluggish the more I open the throttle, then once completely warm around 80deg, it barely wants to go and starts to cough and splutter- and will only crawl on low revs.


    So going back to the KF tuning book, I'm up to adjustment 2 does anybody know the spec of the tool 8.0112 P ??? It's the gauge that sets the enricher arm when warm.
    im also now waiting for an O2 sensor and gauge as I think this will help me see what the mixture settings are.

    i have not rebuilt the injection pump yet so hoping the issues are not inside


    anything else I could do to assist the process, would love to play around with it on a rolling road with all the gear and will book a time if I can sort this running warm issue out

  9. #84
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    So do you ever write and submit a post that when you read it back it sound completely retarted !!! Well that just happened. Anyway posting it made me angry and I spent the next 2 days working on it so scrap all that I said previously. Haha

    Got her running sweet with the stoichmeter almost perfect.

    I have just bought a set of R1carbs and the next journey begins- I do like the mechanical injection but the hunt to try something new is under my skin,

    Yep a bike Quad carbied xn engine - thought I'd try it on this engine before I get my hands on a decent square port donk

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftcoast View Post
    So do you ever write and submit a post that when you read it back it sound completely retarted !!! Well that just happened. Anyway posting it made me angry and I spent the next 2 days working on it so scrap all that I said previously. Haha

    Got her running sweet with the stoichmeter almost perfect.

    I have just bought a set of R1carbs and the next journey begins- I do like the mechanical injection but the hunt to try something new is under my skin,

    Yep a bike Quad carbied XN engine - thought I'd try it on this engine before I get my hands on a decent square port donk
    The 504 TI motor used domed head pistons for higher compression, which are similar to the 505 and later 504 motors. So it is possible to use the same block, just remove the front injection bits and replace them with standard motor components, and fit the fuel pump piston if you want a mechanical fuel pump. All you need is a later model motor for parts. This can I believe be done with the block in the car if you wanted.

    I have a TI block at home and in pulling off some of the parts for another AFr, I was thinking it looked quite feasible.
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  11. #86
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    Thanks pugnut but I'm gonna keep the ti fuel pump and filter system as is and run the feed line (from the main filter located on the firewall) straight back to the return port on that filter then install a Y piece leading to a aeroflow 1-4psi regulator then to carbs

    Before I start to install the carbs I thought I'd go for one last drive, got 20m and she started misbehaving like before, so I crawled home and put her to rest.
    in the morning I did a comprehension test just kill curiosity, from the front when cold -105 - 150 - 155 -150, knew this was suss
    so did a wet test on the 105 which shot up to 175, was odd the difference was so much so thought that the rings were sticking in this cylinder,
    tested all again wit a warm engine, and got from front 145-145-150-150, do you think this was just a stuck ring????? I sure hope so!!

    I have pulled all the injection gear off today and found the fuel coming out of the fuel runners to be containing oil and was quite dark, so guessing problem found....will know more when I rebuild the injection pump

    Im now at the stage of fabbing up my intake manifold out of 40mm alloy pipe. Will have plenty of photos of the conversion along the journey. The only really hard thing about this conversion will be adapting the auto kick down cable to the carbs, but shouldn't be to hard, haha anybody got a 4sp for me?

  12. #87
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    I've got a good 4 speed here and everything you would need for the conversion, problem would be getting it to you!
    Scotty

    Brisbane, now with a garage and workshop again!

    1956 Peugeot 403 - resto project - can you help with parts?

    1969 Peugeot 504 - daily driver project

    1977 Peugeot 604 Ti - factory 5 speed injected

    1989 Peugeot 505 GTD Turbo - 5 speed wagon - For Sale

    1999 Peugeot 406 Coupé - retrofitted ES9J4S with Megasquirt 2 running VVT and 5 speed manual

    2005 Peugeot 607 - Luxobarge / Land Yacht

    2011 Peugeot 3008 XTE HDi - hatchback on steroids

  13. #88
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    Lefty,
    The cold start may have washed the cyl wall giving low compression.
    The final figures look OK to me. But what would I know?

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