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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Default 8v freshen up

    i have decided to get motivated and have a go at rebuilding a 1.9 8v for the 205. the plan was to put a gti6 into it but thats been put on hold for now for numerous reasons.

    i started accumulating parts last year. i have had a few bits laying around the shed for ages that i wanted to do something with. there was a tired gti motor, plus a few spare si motors one of which dissapear to the scrap guy when i had a clean out! it was in really good cond. he says it was an honest mistake!

    the idea was just to freshen up an 8v drop it in and get the car on the road and have some fun for as little money as possible. after pulling the gti motor apart i found it was well and truly knackered. very bad corrossion around the base of the liners and head was stuffed also. so i took the crank rods and pistons and a few other bits from it and put the rest in the bin. its only in the last week or so i have decided to strip an si motor i got a few years back and see what its like.

    after getting it down to almost a bare block its very clean inside and has been refurbished before by the looks of it. i did some measuring an decided to go with the following.

    si head
    si block
    si liners
    1.9 gti crank
    1.9 gti rods
    si pistons ( which look very close to the dfz ones)
    mi16 flywheel

    the head was the first thing to go off to a guy in bendigo for a tidy up and has been there for the last week or so getting done. he said it looked pretty good guides were fine, but has recut the seats (3 angle) and valves to suit plus blended the short side radius a little for me. its getting a light skim off the face and will be reshimmed to accept a newmans ph3 cam with a baker vernier cam gear and fully reassembled ready to bolt on.

    today i dropped off the block and all the internals to be cleaned and inspected. its all std size and if it measures up in tolerance i will be using new, standard size rings and bearings.

    due to the dfz pistons being badly worn he is going to put the si pistons onto the gti 1.9 rods. and while he is at it balance the lot including crank pully flywheel clutch etc.

    its going to cost me around $650 for the machine work, assemble head and balance components

    to be continued.........

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 8v freshen up-1.9-internals.jpg   8v freshen up-si-block.jpg   8v freshen up-si-block2.jpg   8v freshen up-si-sump-pump.jpg  
    Last edited by djvu205; 19th October 2011 at 03:16 PM. Reason: pics

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Wow, that's cheap for all that. Beware that you really need to shim AFTER torquing the head down. Things move around. The Si piston is indeed the same from what I can see to a DFZ piston.

    It will have plenty of CR. What management/fuel/ignition systems?

    The PH3 cam has 0.470" max lift. Make sure he checks for spring bind!

    Newmans quote 0.008" and 0.010" clearance for IN and EX respectively. That's way too close on the exhaust. Use 0.012".

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Thanks peter for info im hoping to run std motronic system. The head has had about 10 thou off total im predicting around just over 10.5:1?

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I make it 10.6:1 minimum, without the skim. Some maths:

    ie
    Vs=476.25cc (1905/4)
    DFZ CR = 8.4:1

    CR = (Vs+Vc)/Vc

    8.4 = (476.25+Vc)/Vc

    7.4Vc = 476.25

    Vc = 64.36cc

    DFZ chamber = 49cc
    all other chambers = 34cc
    change in chamber volume = 15cc

    new Vc = 64.36 - 15

    so new Vc = 49.36cc

    new CR = (476.25+49.36)/49.36

    new CR = 10.6:1

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Wow, that's cheap for all that. Beware that you really need to shim AFTER torquing the head down. Things move around. The Si piston is indeed the same from what I can see to a DFZ piston.

    It will have plenty of CR. What management/fuel/ignition systems?

    The PH3 cam has 0.470" max lift. Make sure he checks for spring bind!

    Newmans quote 0.008" and 0.010" clearance for IN and EX respectively. That's way too close on the exhaust. Use 0.012".

    according to the guy doing the machine work he has set the inlets at around 0.008" - 0.009" and the exhaust at 0.014" - 0.015" he based this on the shape of the valves? he also said they will close up and can adjust later if need be.

    he already checked the spring bind and said he couldnt find any other springs with the correct poundage laying around that had any more clearance so used the std ones. at max lift springs only have 0.050" clearance. i will just have to drive it nicely!

    the cam isnt too peaky anyway from what im told, its more a low - mid range cam, so hopefully i wont need to rev that crapper out of it to get it in the sweet spot anyway its all part of the reason im doing this to learn more and if need be i cam change things later. as long as i get a strong bottom end sorted i dont mind tweeking the head up later if i have to?

    also its going to have the quaifed 4.06 gearbox adrian built for me behind it and i still have the 4.4 diff as a spare. i decided to go with the mi16 2ltr flywheel and clutch setup so if i want to upgrade to the 16v its all there. oh by the way thanks for the cr calcs Peter, its getting up there a bit! wasnt aiming for too much but see how it goes.
    Last edited by djvu205; 20th October 2011 at 06:15 PM.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    after seeing the prices locally for a clutch i decided to take a chance and try one from ebay
    i found something around 1/3 of the price of a local one and that included delivery. hope it does the job? it cost 60 quid for the clutch kit and 60 quid for the postage.

    it arrived within a week of ordering it as promised. it looks ok in the flesh, time will tell though. the flywheel is getting a light grind and the machine shop is going to adjust the step in it so the plate retains the correct pressure


    http://stores.ebay.co.uk/ONE-STOP-CL...id=p4340.l2563
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 8v freshen up-clutch.jpg  
    Last edited by djvu205; 20th October 2011 at 06:14 PM.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Andrew Ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Wow, that's cheap for all that. Beware that you really need to shim AFTER torquing the head down. Things move around.
    Sorry for butting in to this thread. Peter are you saying this is the correct procedure after any head work or just when there is a camshaft change ?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by djvu205 View Post
    after seeing the prices locally for a clutch i decided to take a chance and try one from ebay
    i found something around 1/3 of the price of a local one and that included delivery. hope it does the job?

    it arrived within a week of ordering it as promised. it looks ok in the flesh, time will tell though. the flywheel is getting a light grind and the machine shop is going to adjust the step in it so the plate retains the correct pressure


    http://stores.ebay.co.uk/ONE-STOP-CL...id=p4340.l2563
    How much was the postage?

    Michael

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    i picked the head up late friday and very happy with the result. i was informed that the cam lift is as big as you would want to go with std components, which is what i was aiming for. the duration is reasonally mild and im hoping for power between 2000 - 5000 rpm. the cam thrust washer has been left out which worried me a bit, but i have been assured it will be fine, as it is controlled by the brg cap closest to the dizzy end.

    after doing some reasearch, i think some xu motors run a horseshoe type thrust washer and some dont. the horse shoe washer wouldnt fit back in with the newmans cam anyway. i hope im doing the right thing? as mentioned the machinist said it will be fine so im going with that. plus backed up with other stuff i read on 205 forum.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 8v freshen up-head1.jpg   8v freshen up-head2.jpg   8v freshen up-head3.jpg   8v freshen up-head4.jpg  

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
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    I had to machine the cam slightly to get my custom cam to fit under the rear bearing cap, which does act as a thrust. I reckon you'll be fine without the retaining washer (it fit on mine - not Newmans though).

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Thrust depends on the head type. Some run the tang on the pulley end, others use the dizzy end bearing block. It's either/or, not both.

    Get it right though. I had a tang retaining bolt come loose during a race, which created mayhem as the bolt was torn out of the cap.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Default liner protrusion

    can anyone tell me the correct procedure for checking the liner protrusion? the machinest im using said that he checked the liners in the block without the o ring and they all came in around 0.001". from memory they are spose to have 0.004"?

    all other bits are cleaning up nicely and i should have it all back ready to assemble late next week. need to order some rings and brgs, any recommendations on where to get them? i was thinking caravelle as they always seem to be helpfull.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    0.001" is too low. You need to have around 0.003". You also need to check from thrust side to front, to ensure the liner hasn't sunk, which is very common. I would take 0.002" off the block if the liners are sitting square.

    I've bought rings from EAI in the past. They have always been reliable.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Hey man... Have you bought a clutch yet?

    If not, you could always run a Mi clutch (bigger I believe).

    Find a Mi flywheel


    Chris

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    i am running mi clutch as mentioned above

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Default update

    just a quick update. i almost have everthing i need now to start assembly, thanks to chris' special sunday courier service. Got all the parts i need for the rebuild from caravelle imports and the quality seems to be good. they are also good to deal with.

    i am going to be fitting a an xu10 sump i picked up locally. running it without the spacer or uprated oil pump gears etc , just a std 18t setup with baffle. im told they fit without any mods, hopefully it will be trouble free?

    after dwelling on peters comp calculations i decided to buy a geniune head gasket that is actually 1.65mm thick, this should help a little as im told its thicker than std, after the skimming the head and block received. even if it only helps a little i think its a step in the right direction as it now also has a quality geniune gasket. part # 0209L3

    i dont think much of the aftermarket ones. both of the motors i pulled down for bits, had newish looking aftermarket head gaskets and both of them had corroded badly.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Good to see some progress. Will be a great motor. I had one similar to what your doing with a little head work and it was zoo much fun to drive. Would love to have one in the future.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    thanks cam, after i decided to not put the gti6 into it i have sort of regretted it, i hope its enough to keep me happy.

    anyway tonight i had a clean up and decided to fit the crank. its in and all torqued up with fresh bearings and thrust washers, feels nice. tried a bit of plasti gauge i had and it seems well in spec.

    going to make sure the baffled xu10 sump doesnt foul anything tomorow. i took my oil pump into machine shop and had it clean out properly and checked for size/wear. all good, although he said the spring and piston seemed a little worn its nothing too serious.

    im thinking for the cost i might put a new geniune spring and piston in it. the machinest also said it has a pretty heavy relief spring for a little car .
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 8v freshen up-photo0565.jpg  
    Last edited by djvu205; 6th December 2011 at 11:29 PM. Reason: pics

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    nice work man. you figured some wheels yet?

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    Fellow Frogger! chez00's Avatar
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    Are you just going to run the stock ECU and dizzy?

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Yes if it will handle it, otherwise haltech and Tb,s. The car already has a motronic system and was working ok. Im told that the cam will run with std ignition but its not optimal.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    I have be told that you can plug into the ecu and check to see what fuel the car is set to run on ie 95 ron etc, setting it to run on 98 if it isnt already there may help it cope. Anyone heard of or done this?

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! DjB8V's Avatar
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    Dylan's 205 ran factory brains with a different diz I think. its also got an adjustable cam wheel


    Chris

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    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    Chris i havent decided on the wheels as yet, im sure something will pop up at the right time. i sort of like the 15" speedlines and wish i had kept mine but need funds. its got c5 rims on it for now. other options would be sl434's or gutmann wheels!

    i must say i never went in dylans s2 but heard it run. didnt it have the peter T stage 2 cam? it would have been running on jetronic system. im not too concerned about it at this stage if it needs sorting i will do it when i have to. im confident it will run on the motronic system ok. time will tell

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts djvu205's Avatar
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    so far so good, sump does the trick, need to find my ring compressor and key and in go the pistons

    i was thinking i might put them in the liner first, then put the liner and piston in the block as a combination? anyone got any experience, hints, or tips on the best way to tackle this part of the build?

    i just purchased a full set of oil and coolant hoses from baker bm and hoping they arrive before christmas. i went for black ones all round. with any luck it might be running early in the new year. will post up some more pics when there is somethinjg worth posting.

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