XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!
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Thread: XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Default XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!

    OK Boys,

    I cant seem to find my old thread so I will start a new one.

    Long story short, is that I bought a car ( s16 ) with a suspected timing issue resulting in bent valves etc as usual. It was apparently diagnosed with no compression on cylinder 4. The motor also is an 88x87mm 2.1L job! So im very excited by the following news...

    On my close inspection once I removed the cam cover weeks ago you may remember that I noticed that some of the head bolts were burred and I did not want to attempt removal for fear of further damage.

    Today, a skilled professional was able to safely remove the head and we were able to see the damage.

    Eagerly we lifted the head from the block, turned it over to find perfect valves.....Nothing bent.
    Checked the pistons, like new, no marks. Still shiny..

    I showed the skilled professional the inlet manifold that has been blown apart and he said. "Thats why it aint running! " Bascially was unable to run due to all the air getting past everything that measures stuff..... and so no goer

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    So we are now going to pull the head down. Test it. Reseat the valves for peace of mind. Strip the bottom end and do the same. Put back together and whack it in the 205...


    Its going to be slow progress with me being overseas in a couple of weeks but I thought I would keep everyone updated.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
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  2. #2
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    Having a blown inlet manifold is irrespective of cylinder compression. Unless the compression test was done incorrectly, I think you will find something is amiss. Unless the pistons have been out recently and cleaned (perhaps for the 2.1L conversion), the pistons surface could be clean due to coolant from a blown head gasket or something.

    A blowing manifold backfire could be as a result of something major.

    Turn the head over with the valves shut and fill the headspace with petrol will assist in determining bent valves.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Yea,

    As I said in the above, I think the diagnosis from the Mechanic was probably just to put the owner ( before me ) off form doing anything because he was unable to find the problem himself. So possible good compression but unable to find further faults due to the engine not running...


    ( The owner before me said there was a bang one day and then it never went again... )

    We are definitely doing a leakdown test and also rebuilding the head anyway. We turned over the cams in the head and to the eye all seemed to be fine. But that never tells the rear story.

    Ill keep you up to date as soon as i know more.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    A little update.

    The head has been skimmed beyond safe repair and is also showing signs of corrosion. My builder has advised me basically that its beyond repair as the seats will become exposed if skimmed any further. Lucky I have a spare head lying about! It also has fairly bad corrosion that you can see in the photos.

    Next was the leak test with the old petrol in the chambers. Below are the results

    The exhaust valves in cyl 3 are leaking like a sieve. Low compression, yes but not zero.
    Cyl. 1 exhaust valves are also bad.
    Valves in cyl's 4 and 2 are mediocre and very good respectively.
    There's something funny about the inlet valves in cyl. 3. They're clean as opposed to the rest but I can't put my finger on it at the moment.
    In the photo cyl. 1 is furthest away from the lens. There's no fluid in 1 & 3 because of the leaks.

    Below are some of the photos taken.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_cyl_head_06_valve_seat_proximity.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_cyl_head_07_valve_seat_proximity.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_cyl_head_09_corrosion.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_cyl_head_10_valve_leak-1.jpg  
    98 Xantia CT
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  5. #5
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Why can't you take the head out to RAMS and get it welded up? Nothing is beyond repair out there. They currently have a Sierra Cosworth head (very rare), that dropped a valve during a race and the driver drove it back to the pits. There is literally nothing left of the chamber. Your head is walk in the park.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    My work would have no trouble welding that up. We do stuff way worse than that all the time. You'd find someone to repair that no probs.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Don't need to spend the money on repairing at the moment when I have a spare that looks to be in very good health. The main concern was the gap of the valve seat area and the skimming required to clean it being too close to call...

    Will be building up the new head once in back later this week and then the rebuild will commence...

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
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    Sounds like it will be a weapon.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Not much going on here at the moment. Back from the EU and starting to get a few things under way.

    Stuck a fresher DFZ in the daily the other day as the original motor had an awesome knock and the clutch also packed up. New motor in, plenty of smoke form the dry valve stems as the motor had been sitting for a while. Connected everything up and everything worked! And see runs great!. Then the clutch release mechanism decided to break so its off the road again until I can get a hold of one!

    Taking the other head and the block to the builder this week. On first inspection the other head has not been apart\skimmed etc, so should be a great base to make the best of the two. The block is also going over to be stripped down, new bearings and rings and then the lot back together. Any opinions on what colour I should paint it? I was thinking to stick with the standard black?

    With the aid of a one PeterT, we have discovered that I will need a programable ECU to properly fuel it. The original plan was to run the motor on ITBs and try and reach the 250hp mark. The plan now is get it running sweet for the road on a GTi6 inlet and then plan for the ITBs.


    Will update once again once the other head and block have had the once over.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I don't normally see the point of painting the block especially if it is aluminium. Paint doesn't stick very well to it and then it looks like crap, paint flaking off everywhere. But one reason I found useful to paint blocks is to trace oil leaks. My first attempt was an 807 renault block which I made red so it would contrast with the g'box which I made white (there's a few hidden places where leaks can happen on this combo) and after that I kept to this "tradition". Then again, I don't take my cars to show and tell.

    One thing I learned, if you use the engine enamel (can't remember name right now) widely available of american origin, you need to get the block really clean and bake it hot for as long as you can. That way you will get good results. I did mine at about 110 degC for as long as I had the oven at work (overnight). Some light colours might turn darker though (I don't care).
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    The block is Cast Iron if that makes any difference. I would love to paint it white actually and have everything else black. Not a show and tell guy wither just think it would look cool

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Black Cameron.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Haha!!

    I think it will end up black. As will the gearbox. Might paint that the silver alloy colour though.

    Did you happen to have one of those brackets?

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
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    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Black is very good for heat dissipation, but no good for finding where oil leaks spring out from. Get it sandblasted. Properly. Nothing more annoying than taking it home to discover the odd bit of grease or rust hiding in some tiny little pore or crevice or whatnot.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    OK. Little update.

    Have taken the block and resh head over to the builder. The bottle end is getting balanced and lightened. As is the flywheel and clutch. The block is getting blasted and painted, fresh bearings and rings etc.

    The head is going off to rams for an inspection, fretted up etc. The head is proven to make great power as is so will remain standard. Cams are getting sorted by PeterT. Probably stage 2 inlet and 1 exhaust.

    It will be running on a haltech Sprint 500 with the intention of running on ITBs once funds can afford!!

    My other 205 body will be coming up sometime next week to be prepared for the motor. Ill also keep progress of that.


    Will have photos etc up over the next week or so.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  16. #16
    Tadpole Ospi's Avatar
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    Great news that the damage was not as bad as expected, or as bad as I was told lol. I wouldn't have had the time or skills to put in the work you are so glad it's in your good hands now. Hope you have it running like a dream soon enough!

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Yea there was lots of things wrong with the whole assembly actually. Its getting the full treatment as to make sure there are no surprises elsewhere.

    Looking forward to getting the engine going correctly. It would never really have run that well on the standard computer ( not enough fuel according to a few calculations ) so should be a hoot once I get the ITBs on it with a Haltech. Will be going for more aggressive cams while its apart.

    Hows your shoulder after coming off the bike?

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
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    92 405 Mi16
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Little update.

    The bottom end has been pulled apart and the news is as follows.

    The crank which was supposed to be 88mm is actually 86mm. Not very happy about this but no use crying about it. Pistons are 87mm items so will be up for sale very soon to fund new items to be able to take the 88mm crank.

    In the photo of the rear main you can see on the right side of the seal the light brown section. This is where the flywheel has been rubbing on the seal because the seal hasn't been fitted deep enough into the block. This also means that the outer oil seal lip doesn't even touch the crank, as can be seen in the second photo, and there has been a leak because of this covering the back of the flywheel in oil.

    The flywheel is showing signs of cracks on the friction surface and will possibly need to be replaced. I have another that I will have inspected.



    The other head is still yet to be taken apart so no news about that. Hopefully over the next couple of weeks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_01_oil_seal.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_03_oil_seal_lip.jpg  
    Last edited by cam85; 5th February 2012 at 03:16 PM.
    98 Xantia CT
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    That's very disappointing for you Cam, but doesn't surprise me. Good luck with your investigations.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Ive done a bit of ringing around this afternoon with no success so far. Will post findings asap.

    Peter, have replied to your PM

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    OK.

    So, I will now have to have pistons made up ordered with the correct pin height to match the longer crank. Im going to ask if they will do a run of them to keep costs down so if anyone wants a set please show your interest. This means that all you guys out there wanting a bit more poke now have no excuses!!

    Once I get a price and specs of the pistons I will put an advert in the for sale section. They will be either 87 or 88mm with about 11.5.1 compression. More details to follow

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Ok gents, more info on the build with some pictures.


    The conrod on Cyl. 1 had the bearing cap fitted the wrong way round.
    The conrod was fitted to the piston 180 degrees out then fitted with the bearing cap in the same direction as the others. Pistons and bearings caps fitted in the right direction, no. 1 rod fitted wrong way round.
    You can seen in the photo there is printing on the side of the rod. On the cap are printed number 1's vertically and on the rod there is other data. The printing should line up. I've attached photos of the rod still fitted to the block and another how it should look.

    Main bearings on 2&3 are trashed. Something pumped straight through the oil gallery into the bearings and wiped them.
    Rod bearings on 1&2 have had debris run through them.
    Crank is undamaged and could go straight into an engine untouched.


    The bore has a few slight scores but a hone should remove them.

    The outer ring of the harmonic balancer has started to walk.
    The lower cam cover has had something rub against it at some stage of its life but there aren't any marks on the balancer or the front pulley. It's still useable.


    New head: ( my original head )
    It looks ok. It needs valve guides. I don't think this head has ever been apart. The valve seats have single angle cuts.

    The head casting is the worst Peugeot casting I've seen. It has huge lips where the valve seats meet the ports. The casting marks in the ports are the largest I've seen. Even the combustion chamber has small flaws in it. They need tidying up.

    All things being equal the original head would have made more power than this one just because of the casting.

    Old head: ( head from the fancy pistons etc )
    I pulled a couple of valves out of the old head.
    The exhaust valve guides are trashed. The valves fit like a prick in a gumboot and had heaps of blowby.

    So ill be finding another 88mm crank with pistons to match. New bearings and will have the head fixed up and throw it all back together...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_12_mismatched_conrod.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_13_main_bearings.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_14_conrod_bearing.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_16_matched_conrod2.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_17_harmonic_balancer.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_18_cambelt_cover.jpg  

    XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_block_disassembly_21.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-cp_xu10j4_cyl_head_12_inlet_port.jpg   XU10 head removal + rebuild...Progress Started!-wossner_peugeot_piston87__weight.jpg  
    Last edited by cam85; 5th February 2012 at 03:17 PM.
    98 Xantia CT
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Further progress today. Have found a 92mm Crank so will be using that. It will be here Tuesday for inspection and a measure up to then sort the pistons.

    As the pistons I order will be custom jobs I may as well use a bigger crank... ( apparently )

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

  24. #24
    PDJ
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    I've found that the majority of people use an 88mm crank rather than the 92mm. Don't know if that is due to the abundance of 1.9TD 306's in the U.K. or a cost issue. I've taken my inspiration from the 205 Rallye of the 306 gti6 forum and hope to build something similar.

    Can you tell me what different characteristics you'd get between an 88x87mm and a 92x87mm engine?

    Loving the local build and I hope to be picking your brains in the near future.

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Im going to be using 92mm crank and 88mm pistons.

    Cant remember what the gives but its very close to 2.2 liters. I thought I had an 88mm crank and found out I didnt so thought why not try something a little different ( a few UK guys have done it and Im picking their brains! ). Otherwise I would probably run a GTi6 with a blower

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
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    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
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