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Thread: R8 upgrade project

  1. #26
    Fellow Frogger! r8waynerenault's Avatar
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    Default R8 brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by brettr View Post
    This is my thinking and it could be very wrong.

    If you have your intended tyre for your "use" and it is up to its maximum "sticky" temperature and when at that point if you can lock your brakes in a progressively applied brake pedal motion from 140k+ then i theorise that the brakes can exert enough power to do the braking (these speeds are easily obtainable in your local back streets at night for testing purposes).

    Therefore if you can keep the assembly cool enough then it can continually provide your stopping power.

    Multi pot brakes give better feel and multiple surfaces for pad to piston contact and therefore heat to fluid transfer areas and also therefore cooling areas etc etc.

    Vented discs give 4 surface cooling compared to solids, etc etc.

    Tonight i am probably going to pull it all down again and completely cut my backing plates off following the caliper mounting bracket - i was in two minds last night but it is a one way street that cut. I think this makes more sense than just a small cut out duct and also if a rock flicks up in their they make an awful noise until you get them out.

    And the ducting is easy to run - holesaw two 4" holes from the front apron side if you are running no bumper sides or two 4" in the spare swing down if you have no spare - you know it may be possible even with the spare at the sides of the swing down.

    You can also squish the tube so it becomes 6" wide and 2" high and start them at the main rails where the bumper bolts so as not to lose clearance.

    Those main ducts are a simple job - i will be running two from either side of the gearbox and then right angled out along the swing arm tubes to the rear discs as well - easy and cheap.

    I also will be running a dual circuit 21.6mm master cylinder and two VH44's and in cabin pressure limter in my setup (with a hydraulic handbrake to boot) - the mecaparts calipers are still only 38mm front but the rear replacements are 38mm as well (compared to 32mm) but i will be running kumho v70a 235/45/13 rear tyres which will allow a fair bit of rear bias too. I spose i will put mecaparts claims to the test - they say the setup is practically equiv to the R16 setup - i mean the special material they say is in the rotors may be a softer steel to improve the bite but increase the wear, who knows?

    I also looked at mx5 front stubs which looked fairly close to R8 ones but that was before i got the car - maybe the go is to find a compatible stub axle assembly and change the ball joints or re reem stub to accept R8 ball joints etc etc etc.

    Once again i have never run any heat guns or anything like that on surfaces after mods (i just feel it out) and do most things from experience or what just seems to make sense - and by the way im a computer programmer so what would i know about cars?

    And seriously, its only the brakes - what could go wrong?

    BR
    Hey BR
    I am doing some homework on a total change and looking at bringing together components to advance my brake system. As I gather the info I will share the outcome but so far it is doable. The key to my success is the manufactured hubs and the caliper support to the disc, once I have those bases covered job done.
    Wayne

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    Wayne Vernon
    Reno R8 63
    Falcon XT GT 1969
    Ford Single Spinner Ute 49

  2. #27
    Fellow Frogger! 750frog's Avatar
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    Default

    Why not just take the backing plates off? If it is only a track car you won't need dust covers.

    I only use metal king pads and synthetic brake fluid as the standard always boils! Looks like a very cool car.

  3. #28
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    Default

    I'm also upgrading the brakes to more modern brakes with more availability on spares.
    Wanted to go the VW route on calipers for the front and Citroen CX for the rear with Vectra discs but since I had brand new Fiat Uno pads and disks lying in the cupboard from a previous car I owned I figured they might work. So I'm using Uno Pacer in front and Uno Turbo at the rear. Since the front lock up quickly I figured Uno would be up to the job with the standard setup in front.

    Since the pots is bigger than R8 they might put more preassure on the disks = more stopping power in the end. The R8 hubs will be machined down to 117mm so that the Uno disks can fit over them leaving 4 lug holes for studs and some new wheels.

  4. #29
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    I might be sticking my head into a beehive, but this is my opinion....and everybody is entitled to my opinion

    Do not under estimate standard R8/R10 brakes. If your rotors are in good condition, skimmed or new they will be good for a lot of punishment. Make sure you use a competition brake fluid, it can be a Dot 4 or Dot 5, doesn't matter. If I compare my racing conditions here in NZ and in ZA, and Ross's escapades doing the Targa twice, that is about 650km of special stages in each, doing the NZ Toyo Tyre series twice and be runner up in both, and Rod Slater's comment else where Rallying in Aus with a G using standard brakes, and 750frog's comment below and nobody complained about brake fade.

    I must admit that I have gone bigger on brakes and it has improved my lap times but the issue I had was boiling brake fluid. That was No Name brand from Supercheap in any case. Brettr mentioned that if you can get a lock up then you have what you need, very true and to add to that, I enjoyed the standard brakes with racing tyres very much because it couldn't lock the wheels and I didn't need to worry about lockups at all. It just stopped very well and compared to most of the field and outbraked many of the rest.

    It sounds to me that the cars in question in this thread will do mostly public roads and where will you push the brakes that hard on public roads.

    Then again I should be careful saying the above because it is a safety improvement and one cannot have enough or too much safety.

    That was just a thought and I had to say it in defense of R8/R10 designed brakes 47 years ago.

    Regards
    Frans.
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

  5. #30
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Yes I totally agree Frans, there seems to have been a lot a R8/R10/A110 brake bashing going on recently on this forum. IMHO they are fantastic brakes, I have standard brakes in my road going R8 just with good fluid and a cut out in the front backing plates to act as an air scope and they are more than adequate.

    In my race car (Dauphine with all R8/R10 running gear) I had the same as my road car but with the addition of Mintex pads. Absolutely fantastic brakes for the power and weight of the car (120hp and 800kg)

    The new car will have the big brake upgrade only because of the increased power but even with this upgrade there will be no vented discs, not necessary on a car only wieghing 650-700kg.

    You have to keep things in perspective. I have done a lot of racing in a GTR Skyline and sure with 500hp and 1600kg you need vented discs, ducting, multi pot calipers etc etc. But on our little light low power cars you dont need all that guff, in fact you end up increasing unsprung weight and hurting the handling.
    Ross:

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    1963 Renault R8
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  6. #31
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    Frans and Ross, I totally agree with you my R8 brakes worked excellent. The only problems where rebonded pads with cheap linings that didn't really work all that well.

    The only reason I'n changing the brakes on my R8 is due to availability and cost of spares between more modern setups and the standard setup.
    Import costs and the R/$ exchange rate makes importing very expensive in ZA. I can get disks and new pads for the same price one set of imported pads would cost me.

    If they work the same or better it's an added bonus.

  7. #32
    Fellow Frogger! r8waynerenault's Avatar
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    Default R8 Brakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    Yes I totally agree Frans, there seems to have been a lot a R8/R10/A110 brake bashing going on recently on this forum. IMHO they are fantastic brakes, I have standard brakes in my road going R8 just with good fluid and a cut out in the front backing plates to act as an air scope and they are more than adequate.

    In my race car (Dauphine with all R8/R10 running gear) I had the same as my road car but with the addition of Mintex pads. Absolutely fantastic brakes for the power and weight of the car (120hp and 800kg)

    The new car will have the big brake upgrade only because of the increased power but even with this upgrade there will be no vented discs, not necessary on a car only wieghing 650-700kg.

    You have to keep things in perspective. I have done a lot of racing in a GTR Skyline and sure with 500hp and 1600kg you need vented discs, ducting, multi pot calipers etc etc. But on our little light low power cars you dont need all that guff, in fact you end up increasing unsprung weight and hurting the handling.
    Frans and Ross

    I am upgarding my brakes at the car rebuild stage as once licenced I intend to go turbo. My car will only be a weekend street car but I think and this is my opinion, if you make a little car go quicker my peace of mind is the ability to stop on a dime hard and straight.
    I will also drop the car and weight up the front all in the name of making the car safer on the road.
    Wayne
    Last edited by r8waynerenault; 4th September 2011 at 03:29 PM. Reason: mistake
    Wayne Vernon
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    Falcon XT GT 1969
    Ford Single Spinner Ute 49

  8. #33
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    Default The Front Brakes Project Part 2

    OK, got a bit motivated and stripped the backing plate and gave the whole lot a bit of a freshen up.

    Finished the main 4" ducting for rotors and also ran a 2" scat duct straight into the calipers piston / pad area secured by a little aluminium bracket to the hub.

    In one pic it shows how thin the current rotors were.

    It runs mintex racing pads and motul racing brake fluid. I think the asembly should stay cool enough to provide consistent top line brake power.

    I think an important note for anyone working with 8 / 10 brakes is that quite often the recess holes in the pads for the piston / caliper lugs are not deep enough and the pad end up wearing incorrectly and the braking is not effective when they run not true. i always used a broken drill bit put in the drill with the broken side out and then use that like a mini mill to chew out the excess pad material so they sit perfectly in the caliper on their lugs.

    Then topped it off with some 7071 aluminium wheel nuts.
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  9. #34
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    Default The Master Brake System Project

    This thing has been been a major pain in my back door but is now done a little over schedule.

    So it runs a 21.6mm dual master cylinder, toyota hilux remote resevoir with low level warning, two 19mm vh44 remote boosters, an in car dash mount proportioning valve and a hydraulic handbrake after the prop valve - the standard prop valve in the rear is removed - the front and rear calipers are both 38mm pistons.

    Im not going to say much more because the memories of the job are too painful but this is the wrong way to do this - the best way would be to mount a top hinged pedal bar in the boot - a bit of cutting and fabbing and rooting around but ANYTHING is better than working in that pedal bar area under the car, there is just no space and its even worse with a front mount radiator.
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  10. #35
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    Default The Rear Brakes Project

    Mecaparts 38mm rears and new rotors etc etc etc in the kit.

    When the rear wheels came off the current calipers were just stuffed, same for rotors and the best part was that the split pins that hold the calipers in, well they obviously couldnt find the normal big split pins so just put in a little shitty one - great stuff - the mecaparts pins are huge by the way, a little paranoid maybe?

    Ofcourse the passenger side wheel bearing was toast so its changed, i got two new nut and cones before the job because its a good idea to change them - but someone had not changed / tightened properly the one of the drivers side before and the nut is flush aginst the hub when i looked - and the actual hub was still a bit loose.

    The down side here is that it has worn the hub - the new nut and cone just clear the hub so i will weld it up at some stage and cut a new taper in.

    The brakes were put in (de backing plated - will see how they go without the preload spring) and just tidied up and then ducted using the 4" flexi alu tube mounted to the control arm - it scoops from under body and dumps straight on the rotor.

    Also took the opportunity to cut the drop straps down so the rear end never goes positive camber - this was always a great perf upgrade as it also basically operates like an anti roll bar as when the inside wheel hits the limit the body stops rolling and it starts loading the outer wheel much earlier (ofcourse the body still roll further the more and more load you put onto the outer until its hits the bump stop).

    And with the Mecaparts stuff came a new handbrake cable so that's in - works great too.
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    Last edited by brettr; 12th September 2011 at 04:43 PM. Reason: text fix up

  11. #36
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    Default The Exhaust Project

    The 4 into 2 into 1 isnt my favourite 4 cylinder extractor. The best results ive always had with exhausts on 4's is 4 into 1 with about 80cm - 100cm in the primary - but this differs for all engines - bore to stroke ratio, inlet systems, cam timing, at what rpm you want you peak power etc etc affects the tuned length of the pipe.

    So this was just to clean it up as it was just rusty from sitting around and also to thermally wrap it. For this type of engine this is probably worth 1-2HP at max rpm.

    The hotter the column of gas can stay at the walls of the pipes will allow a wider column to travels through with less impedence.

    So its had the rust scale knocked off the can and the headers and gave them a quick 300C paint for a tart factor and then spent 2hours wrapping the pipes - it has to be tight and right.

    You do this with the fibreglass based tape after it has been soaked in water. I would recommend baking the exhaust on the car when the wrap is still wet rather than let it dry normally.

    Also on this header the head plate had been cut out very nicely to match the ports but then had the tubes placed inside before welding so it created a gas step for the exhaust - just 30 minutes of work with the high speed rasp in the drill and now the gas has a much smoother exit to follow.

    With such a short exhaust, big cam and carburettors im really looking forward to the down through the gears flames out the pipe - the big orange glow in the side mirror at night is very cool.
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  12. #37
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    Default The Steering Project

    Pretty basic really - just puilled the rack and put in a 2.5 turn rack and pinion (standard 3.7 turns) and new rag joint (the old one just crumbled to pieces), and new ties rods and boots.

    The tie rods were mecaparts parts - now i know the car is lower but not rediculously as the tie rods seemed way to long. At the current ride height the tie rods sit horizontal (at their max width).

    I just took at them with the angle brinder and cut about 15mm off either end and now they are only just ok to get the aligment alright.

    In any event i have a rack height adjuster and rack booster coming which will re correct the angles and also improves steering response (and also recorrect what i did with dropping the steering wheel).
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  13. #38
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    Default The Odds and Sods Project

    These cars were pretty much so falling apart 20 years ago - now it seems that everything you touch is rooted or needs some mod to make it work properly.

    In some instances where there was a rubber item it simply doesnt even exist, it has returned to the earth from whence it came obviously.

    Sway bar rubbers.
    Top bump stop rubber.
    When i went to my dads to look around i found an original windscreen washer bottle!
    Accelerator pedal rubber.
    Engine mounts.
    Fabbed a bracket to guide the clutch cable true and a spring for return as the arm one was broken.
    All the heater hoses.
    When at my dads garage i also found an ariginal gordini dash pad in great original condition so that went in.
    Replaced every engine hose (which is alot when its front radiator mount and also a nightmare when that R16 engine waterpump is hidden). To do this i had to buy a crap load of pipes from Supercheap and cut up segments and join them with little aluminium mandrel bends etc to plumb the system to and acceptable standard.
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  14. #39
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    Default The instant 20HP upgrade project

    Well maybe not physical HP but it certainly adds 20HP of bling to the engine bay.

    While in there doing the valve clearances i noticed it must be a fairly high lift cam as the valve springs are almost coil bound at full lift.

    It certainly makes the bay look pretty trick and the vehicle is really starting to come together.
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  15. #40
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Brett,
    Have had a quick read of my "bible". Phil Irving's Automobile Eng Tuning.
    On the subject of valve spring binding he suggests a gap of 1/16" between the coils of a compressed spring to prevent this occuring at high revs.

  16. #41
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    Default Valve Springs.

    Hi WB,

    OK, ill have a read.

    I've never read any material on what is an acceptable amount of free area - 1/16" is 1.6mm then times the 5 intercoil areas give 8mm - excessive maybe?

    Thankyou for the book tip - unfortuantely ive never read one novel in my life (how uncultured) but i can chew through car books / tech stuff no probs!

    BR

  17. #42
    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    BR,
    My interpretation is that as long as there is the gap between one or two coils there should be no binding ?

    Phil Irving is of the old school but I can imagine his ideas are still current.

  18. #43
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    Default Driving Position Project

    Time has passed the R8 seats by - still comfortable but in a lounge chair sort of way - mine are in great condition but they put me to sleep.

    The cabin is not spacious by any means and i really wanted to get the driving position correct - or maybe moreso to my liking.

    The steering wheel angle and the pedals are offset so the drivers seat needs to be facing them in my opinion - i also wanted to lower the drivers seating position and increase the recline to account for the depth of the pedals versus the steering wheels position.

    This creates a whole range if sliding trajectory issues coupled with the fit issues of the small cabin.

    It was possible with the momo's - just - at every extremity the seats are brushing pillars, themselves, poking into recesses etc but it all works.

    I used some 3.5mm aluminium plate angle and cut the floor profiles into that so they slide into the orginal seat mounting rails in the floor - no need to drill or cut. Two holes drilled at the floor just infront of the cross member for the front mounting. For the 5/6 points of the harnesses i used the original seats rear bolt area with the captive popped out - the harness point reinforcing plate is cut down to fit around the crossmember underneath but this leaves it reversible to original.

    The rear harness mounts on the parcel shelf vertical as close to the seam as poss and are plate reinforced. All other original seat belt points are used for the harness mounts.

    One of the pics shows the angled offset for the drivers seat compared to the passengers seat.

    The new seating positions feel great and also provide the room for fire extinguishers to the right of the driver / passenger and also hydraulic handbrake between the seats - plus room for the modified shift setup i am mounting.

    These should pose no probs for rego. The essence of ADR22 (i think that is it) says that any pre adr vehicle that has its seats changed then the replacement should comply with the essence of adr22 which is that there is a backing area considered to act like a head rest / restraint.

    Only prob is it also mentions that the seats must be parallel to the centreline of the vehicle so thats a bit contentious ...
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  19. #44
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    Momo's looks great, when I started looking for seats I decided on normal racing seats as the momo's looked as they wouldn't fit. Went with the same idea you had with the bar at the back on which the seats mount. I only used steel instead of Aluminium.
    But it looks great and the new seat positions feel excellent as I'm sure yours does as well.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettr View Post
    Time has passed the R8 seats by - still comfortable but in a lounge chair sort of way - mine are in great condition but they put me to sleep.

    The cabin is not spacious by any means and i really wanted to get the driving position correct - or maybe moreso to my liking.

    The steering wheel angle and the pedals are offset so the drivers seat needs to be facing them in my opinion - i also wanted to lower the drivers seating position and increase the recline to account for the depth of the pedals versus the steering wheels position.

    This creates a whole range if sliding trajectory issues coupled with the fit issues of the small cabin.

    It was possible with the momo's - just - at every extremity the seats are brushing pillars, themselves, poking into recesses etc but it all works.

    I used some 3.5mm aluminium plate angle and cut the floor profiles into that so they slide into the orginal seat mounting rails in the floor - no need to drill or cut. Two holes drilled at the floor just infront of the cross member for the front mounting. For the 5/6 points of the harnesses i used the original seats rear bolt area with the captive popped out - the harness point reinforcing plate is cut down to fit around the crossmember underneath but this leaves it reversible to original.

    The rear harness mounts on the parcel shelf vertical as close to the seam as poss and are plate reinforced. All other original seat belt points are used for the harness mounts.

    One of the pics shows the angled offset for the drivers seat compared to the passengers seat.

    The new seating positions feel great and also provide the room for fire extinguishers to the right of the driver / passenger and also hydraulic handbrake between the seats - plus room for the modified shift setup i am mounting.

    These should pose no probs for rego. The essence of ADR22 (i think that is it) says that any pre adr vehicle that has its seats changed then the replacement should comply with the essence of adr22 which is that there is a backing area considered to act like a head rest / restraint.

    Only prob is it also mentions that the seats must be parallel to the centreline of the vehicle so thats a bit contentious ...
    Seats look great, good job
    wayne
    Wayne Vernon
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  21. #46
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    Default Quick Shift Project

    Facing the facts the original shift seems to me to be less than idyllic.

    It is too far forward - orientated moreso to allow the seats to go all the way forward to form a bed and also for a seating height higher than the new one.

    The throw is also quite long - and in general is way far away from the steering wheel.

    I wanted to bring the shift closer to driver / steering wheel and reduce the throw.

    As i would be increasing the height i had to take that into consideration as i was aiming for a 5" throw.

    My calcs came out for a 50mm increase in length between the pivot ball and the shift rod connector.

    59 Floride had been kind enough to help out with a another shift lever for the project (thanks mate).

    So cutting the lever below the pivot ball and then cutting another 50mm section from the top of the lever to insert i then ground down a high 3/8 high tensile bolt leaving enough meat to make it an interference fit.

    The 50mm piece i drilled slightly oversize to fit over the ground down bolt snuggly and then drover the pieces together then welded the pieces (slowly in small beads as they you cannot put too much heat in the pivot ball as it will melt!)

    The connector end must sit in the same place so the pivot ball assembly needs to be raised the height of the extension - i didnt have cad/cam machine sitting arouns nor a big billet of aluminium so i made the spacer pucks out of 25mm sheet mdf - they work fine.

    The floor need some modification to allow the shifters new higher pivot angle - basically it needs the round hole to be about 10mm diameter wider and squared off.

    Once mounted i used some copper to to make a shift shaft template then bent up the steel tube to the final shape - assembled that and welded it on, then fitted with some a/c pipe insulation and topped with sparco shift knob.

    Pics 1698 shows the shifter in the 1st/2nd gate line.

    Pics 1704 and 1705 show the throw between the 3rd / 4th gate - about 5" - sits in a great pos next to the wheel.
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  22. #47
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
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    Ipswich, Queensland.
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    1,745

    Default

    [QUOTE=brettr;990919]Well maybe not physical HP but it certainly adds 20HP of bling to the engine bay.

    QUOTE]

    Something though that will add Hp is the removal of the socks on the trumpets, and making up an airbox for the trumpets to suck from preferably with a fresh air intake. I proved this on a dyno many years ago with a stroker rally Datto 1600. Everyone on the rally scene use socks, but to their detriment, besides which I think they only stop rocks, and certainly disturb the flow into the trumpet. It was quite a gain for a simple mod, I think 8Hp at the wheels.
    '56 Renault 750 (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '08 Renault Megane sedan

  23. #48
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    Los Angeles, CA. USA
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    67

    Default

    Had you considered using a boxer engine from a Subaru WRX rather than a BUSA? Adapter plates are readily available here in the states to connect them to VW Bus transmissions, the 4 beam one is sturdy, if you don't mind only four forward gears. I haven't done the engineering, but I have considered using this along with Porsche brakes and axles in the rear.

    Those motors easily put out 250hp and are available all day long for a fair price.

    Has anyone done this?

  24. #49
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Nov 2010
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    sydney
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    Default Oil Management Project Part 1

    The original 16TS sump has a smallish oil capacity, protrudes too low and has no real ability to heat sink the oil to the air efficiently.

    So alloy alpine style sump and a new set of big ends while inside.

    All seems easier than the execution.

    Firstly the engine mount bar curves under the front of the sump so it has to be removed enough to allow access.

    Then the new sump flange is 10mm - the old sump is pressed steel 1.25 thick so the bolts are not long enough - and they are M7's! - like the rarest easily available bolts - supercheap dont keep M7 but the new high tensile bolt section at Bunnings did - but only in one size at 35mm long so i had to use the nuts to provide the torque on the blind ones (wasnt going to cut so many short!).

    An yes i could have gone to Coventry fasteners etc but that was too much hassle.

    Next was the oil pickup - it was way to long - like 21mm or so. Mecaparts seems to list a 12mm spacer for the sump but even that was not going to help and also with the engine mount curving under i would have had to cut a recess out of that etc.

    So i cut it and shut it to the new depth required.

    The baffle plate looks effective with the hinged one way entry points. It did required to be "relieved" with a hammer slightly around the pump area (you can see in the pics my "relieving"). It also required the relief valve split pin to be cut down and also because the dipstick is on the other side i had to holesaw the baffle plate (yes could have change the sides in the block of the dip but i didnt think i could make it seal well enough).

    One thing was when i went to remove the baffle plate the allen key bolts were not tight nor were locktighted in.

    To finish this bit i had to cut a small portion off the dip stick (the original low / full still remained on the stick) and then remarked it with baffle height, lowest crank protrusion point and sump flange marks.

    Also while in there i changed the big ends - the crank pins looked excellent, micro'ed up to virtually factory width and they are on standard size.

    So that takes care of part one of the oil project and gives me a heap more clearance under the rear.
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  25. #50
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Subaru Engine

    Hi Gordinowitz,

    subaru motor will not fit without some major mods such as cutting out half of the rear rails.

    also i think its too heavy for the rear - these are my thoughts, not saying it cant be done or is bad.

    also yes seen 8's before using vw transmissions as its easy to get them to hold some big hp's -

    the easiest renault trans fit for bigger hp is a speedbox 364 - utlising 16ts crown etc - is good for 250HP. check out the tech on it at Steve Swans site http://www.8gordiniworkshop.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

    BR

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