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  1. #26
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    I ended up beating the BDA on the day and another mega power Escort, Nissan FJ20 powered.
    No 2wd car, except for the super light weight (corflute floored!) early Laser with Probe V6, was more than a second faster per run and there was only a handful that beat me.
    So it looks like the Si suspension will stay for the time being at least.
    Standard except for Koni yellow shocks in the front and GTi shocks in the rear.
    It really turns in, no understeer at all, and plenty of controllable tail out.
    You just chuck it into the corner with the steering, no need for handbrake or left foot braking.
    The times will improve as I become more confident with this.
    Talk to Dave Robinson at Performance Exhaust Ringwood re the tube bending.
    9870 4977
    Graham

    It must be frustrating to get beaten by 'an old guy' in a cheap 205! Its amazing how well your car works!

    thanks for the tip on the bending.

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  2. #27
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    [Maxi said: The build of the club car is going well. Aiming for 200+ hp and under 850kgs.]

    When you acheive this, it will be a super rocket and the only problem will be traction. As a reference, my car has 215 hp at the wheels (low boost) and weighs bang on 900kg. You may not have the onslaught of torque I have at 3k rpm however and your balance of power delivery will be better as a result. Think carefully about the tyres you run!
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    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    It must be frustrating to get beaten by 'an old guy' in a cheap 205! Its amazing how well your car works!

    thanks for the tip on the bending.
    The Escort was driven by an old guy as well, Grant Walker, a mate of Jim Richards who came from NZ at the same time as Jim did.
    While there were lots of young people there, it seems that GenY has other things to do, like buy cars and plan super modifications with nothing further in mind than getting big dyno numbers.
    I'm getting stuck right into it now before I get too old or Motorsport closes down due to the many environmental and energy supply factors, not sure what will happen first!
    Graham

  4. #29
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    I rang up Dave at Performance Exhuausts as suggested, he said that despite having $60K worth of pipe bending machines, he still takes his cages/cars to Brown Davis for CAMs spec mandrel bends.
    I guess this means thats CAMS would not pass Maxi's cage, even though the bends look reasonable to me. Dave said that unless the bends are done with a proper dye, that other bending machines crush the tube too much.
    I suppose it gets down to whether you actually need a CAMS cage or not - Graham seems you dont.
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    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    I rang up Dave at Performance Exhuausts as suggested, he said that despite having $60K worth of pipe bending machines, he still takes his cages/cars to Brown Davis for CAMs spec mandrel bends.
    I guess this means thats CAMS would not pass Maxi's cage, even though the bends look reasonable to me. Dave said that unless the bends are done with a proper dye, that other bending machines crush the tube too much.
    I suppose it gets down to whether you actually need a CAMS cage or not - Graham seems you dont.
    I've got a CAMS compliant Brown Davis cage.
    It is the minimum level apart from the harness bar and I reckon would pass VicRoads requirements as there is nothing over my head.
    Graham

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    I rang up Dave at Performance Exhuausts as suggested, he said that despite having $60K worth of pipe bending machines, he still takes his cages/cars to Brown Davis for CAMs spec mandrel bends.
    I guess this means thats CAMS would not pass Maxi's cage, even though the bends look reasonable to me. Dave said that unless the bends are done with a proper dye, that other bending machines crush the tube too much.
    I suppose it gets down to whether you actually need a CAMS cage or not - Graham seems you dont.
    Nope mine is 100% Cams + AMSAG + ASA + MANZ + FIA conforming.

    Main, front and lateral roll bars: These frames or hoops must be made in one piece without joints. Their construction must be smooth and even, without ripples or cracks. The vertical part of the main roll bar must be as straight as possible and as close as possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell.
    The front leg of a front roll bar or of a lateral roll bar must be straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its lower vertical part. Where a main roll bar forms the rear legs of a lateral roll bar (drawing 253-4), the connection to the lateral roll bar must be at roof level.


    Except $2500 + cheaper than a professional company. The steel is the same price, the bends the same, the design the same - except I put in the 32 hrs not the professional company. So if you added up my time you would find its about the same cost

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Maxi View Post
    Nope mine is 100% Cams + AMSAG + ASA + MANZ + FIA conforming.

    Main, front and lateral roll bars: These frames or hoops must be made in one piece without joints. Their construction must be smooth and even, without ripples or cracks. The vertical part of the main roll bar must be as straight as possible and as close as possible to the interior contour of the bodyshell.
    The front leg of a front roll bar or of a lateral roll bar must be straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend with its lower vertical part. Where a main roll bar forms the rear legs of a lateral roll bar (drawing 253-4), the connection to the lateral roll bar must be at roof level.


    Except $2500 + cheaper than a professional company. The steel is the same price, the bends the same, the design the same - except I put in the 32 hrs not the professional company. So if you added up my time you would find its about the same cost

    Your cage simple looks safe and I would be happy to use it. I have not studied the CAMS manual hard enough but presume that 'construction must be smooth and even' is the last and only word about the bends.

    I am tempted to buy the pipe at $20 per M, then mock up the bends I want and go to an Exhaust place - surely their crush bends will suffice. BD want $360 make me a main hoop - which is $60 worth of pipe and $300 labour!
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  8. #33
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    There are things you can skimp on but a cage is not one of them. What's the point of squabbling over a few hundred dollars when it might save your life? I've seen a 205 go upside down on turn 1 at Eastern Creek. The car was a wreck but the young boy stepped out without a scratch, thanks to a well engineered full cage.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  9. #34
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    I agree Peter, no point stuffing around with rubbish. The rebel in the typical old Frog car owner does however lead one to asking lots of questions. If a certain bend in the metal is necessary I will pay for it. Your example spurs me on to get a full cage in my rocket propelled matchbox.
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    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    I agree Peter, no point stuffing around with rubbish. The rebel in the typical old Frog car owner does however lead one to asking lots of questions. If a certain bend in the metal is necessary I will pay for it. Your example spurs me on to get a full cage in my rocket propelled matchbox.
    It also depends on what you want to do with the car.
    If I was going to tackle turn 1 at Eastern Creek then yes, I would be wanting the most comprehensive cage available.
    The thing is that I won't be doing that, I compete on dirt circuits and forestry tracks where speeds are much lower.
    I was more interested in getting a cage with minimal intrusion as I planned to drive it on the road without a helmet a fair bit. The B-D cage is really good for this, beautifully made and fitted.
    Graham

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    There are things you can skimp on but a cage is not one of them. What's the point of squabbling over a few hundred dollars when it might save your life? I've seen a 205 go upside down on turn 1 at Eastern Creek. The car was a wreck but the young boy stepped out without a scratch, thanks to a well engineered full cage.
    Having tested out a couple of roll cages in anger, I firmly back Peters sentiments

    Matt
    Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    There are things you can skimp on but a cage is not one of them. What's the point of squabbling over a few hundred dollars when it might save your life? I've seen a 205 go upside down on turn 1 at Eastern Creek. The car was a wreck but the young boy stepped out without a scratch, thanks to a well engineered full cage.
    Yes great point, do not skimp.

    I wish to make it clear to everyone that I would not suggest to anyone that they build there own cage without 'serious knowledge'. Our Pug cage is the 6th car I have built, the 3rd rollcage I have 'spec'd' and the welding is done by a professional engineer with 15 years experience in building rally, race and speedway cars. This is about the 100th project of this nature he has done.

    Before specifing the cage we spoke with Bond Roll Bars, Lockliegh Enterprises and CDL Enginnering, all of which are profesional roll cage companies. None of which had a template of the style cage we wanted. So we followed the path to build our own.

    In the end we used a custom cages template: This was one of the best templates we found.
    http://www.customcages.co.uk/Rollcag...geot&model=205 and 309&type=Multipoint

    Except the rear mounting , although FIA certified, did not come up to CAMS requirements. Ie the tube mounting system above the rear beam mounting bolts, Internationally this is sleaved with a tube and then the rear legs run off this tube.



    Cam's require a plate of not less than 12000mm sqd, hence in our design incorporates the sleave to strenghten the rear beam mounting, plus the plate, which is actually much larger than required. So in fact is highly over spec'd


  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAHAM WALLIS View Post
    It also depends on what you want to do with the car.
    If I was going to tackle turn 1 at Eastern Creek then yes, I would be wanting the most comprehensive cage available.
    The thing is that I won't be doing that, I compete on dirt circuits and forestry tracks where speeds are much lower.
    I was more interested in getting a cage with minimal intrusion as I planned to drive it on the road without a helmet a fair bit. The B-D cage is really good for this, beautifully made and fitted.
    Graham

    I guess the thing that worries me the most in driving a 205 on road or track is getting hit on the drivers side door - car/pole/tree, where there is only the internal door bar tube as protection. Reading the Vicroads guidelines you can have a lower bar provided that it does not extend above the height of the seat cushion - a compromise but better than nothing.
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    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Maxi View Post
    hence in our design incorporates the sleave to strenghten the rear beam mounting
    I can't quite work out this bit. Is the sleeve capped? So that they the bolt goes through it?

    '92 205 Mi16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    I guess the thing that worries me the most in driving a 205 on road or track is getting hit on the drivers side door - car/pole/tree, where there is only the internal door bar tube as protection. Reading the Vicroads guidelines you can have a lower bar provided that it does not extend above the height of the seat cushion - a compromise but better than nothing.
    Me too, that's why I've been driving cars on the road for 14 years that have big fat high intrusion bars - no probs yet from Vicroads. I've been stopped a few times at RBT's and no-ones said anything. Cars have all had full reg.
    205gti

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    I can't quite work out this bit. Is the sleeve capped? So that they the bolt goes through it?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by casnell View Post
    Me too, that's why I've been driving cars on the road for 14 years that have big fat high intrusion bars - no probs yet from Vicroads. I've been stopped a few times at RBT's and no-ones said anything. Cars have all had full reg.
    Thanks, you are thinking along my lines!
    To me, better to avoid death or serious injury, then meet the guidlines second. I am tempted to put in the high intrusion bars and also expect to not cause a fuss unless the car gets heavily inspected by traffic police.
    The problem I see is if in a post-accident analysis, Vicroads can assert that the car was 'illegal' and therefore no 3rd party cover. Following from that might be our own insurers not coughing up - insurance based on a compliantly registered car... thoughts?
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  18. #43
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    Since you are forced to make a choice, you have to decide what worries you most, or of whom or what you are most frightened.

    If being T-boned on the road is not your greatest fear, you do not necessarily have to make a choice. It is possible to make the side intrusion bars removable. Mine were so constructed, but I never took them out.

    Tim

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcusack View Post
    Since you are forced to make a choice, you have to decide what worries you most, or of whom or what you are most frightened.

    If being T-boned on the road is not your greatest fear, you do not necessarily have to make a choice. It is possible to make the side intrusion bars removable. Mine were so constructed, but I never took them out.

    Tim
    Thanks Tim, yes I thought about removable bars. This would be useful if the fuzz order you to remove them, but not so much in the post-accident scenario. Did you use clamps on the ends of the bars?

    I think I choose health over hypthetical financial ruin.
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    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  20. #45
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    Yes the debate on roll cages in road registered and predominatly road driven cars is long and complex.

    My opinion.

    If you have a road and occasional track use car, which is a daily driver or similar - Put in a 1/2 cage and remove the rear seats is the best option. Drive it in a 'spirited' manner at up to 90% of the cars ability. Always keep something in reserve for the 'in case' scenario.

    If you are any more serious than that - build a dedicated club car with a full cage and trailer it as you require. Don't risk your life with anything short of the best you can afford (or even not afford)

    A full roll cage in a road car is actually dangerous in terms of potential head injuries in a road accident.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by 205 Maxi View Post
    Yes the debate on roll cages in road registered and predominatly road driven cars is long and complex.

    My opinion.

    If you have a road and occasional track use car, which is a daily driver or similar - Put in a 1/2 cage and remove the rear seats is the best option. Drive it in a 'spirited' manner at up to 90% of the cars ability. Always keep something in reserve for the 'in case' scenario.

    If you are any more serious than that - build a dedicated club car with a full cage and trailer it as you require. Don't risk your life with anything short of the best you can afford (or even not afford)

    A full roll cage in a road car is actually dangerous in terms of potential head injuries in a road accident.

    I tend to agree. I have a 1/2 cage, with no rear seats currently. Cars like mine are a compromise between your options above.

    Yes vicroads advises that most injuries are related to the occupant hitting part of the interior of the car. A front area cage cant be a good idea without bucket seats and at least a 4 point harness to keep you in place, plus padding on all the relevant bars.

    To me, a feeling of safety is critical to enjoyment.
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    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  22. #47
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    Ive been shopping:

    Thanks to Baker BM, DMRR, AB Motorsport and others I have new toys on the way:

    - Group A gear links.
    - Group A Engine mounts
    - Group A Solid beam mounts
    - MI 16 Silicon hose kit (blue)
    - Trans x LSD
    - 4 spot brake kit

    Now I am broke and need to order a pedal box , stud kit and bigger torsen bar next month, or the one after

  23. #48
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    It's certainly a good time to buy bits from the UK. Stud kit is a good idea if you intend stripping it down regularly. I like to think I won't be doing that but it never works out that way, so waste a set of bolts every time. What price did you get on the stud kit?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  24. #49
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    weekend update - getting there - slowly










  25. #50
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    More new toys to go on the mi16


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