84 fuego resto thread Mk 2
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Default 84 fuego resto thread Mk 2

    I'm taking on another fuego epic job.

    This time its installing a new computer, sequential fire with coil packs.
    I'll also fix up a few things along the way and make the engine bay a little more custom.
    A new cluch, lightened flywheel and gearbox as well as a set of extractors will also get installed whist I'm at it.

    At first i thought this was going to be a simple task of taking the efi gear from one fuego to the next.

    That would be too easy.

    My car is essentially a PS fuego, which means the bottom dizzi is used and the end of the cam is used for the Power steering.
    This has never sat well with me, on a number of levels.
    Loading the cam up more than necessary seems silly.
    For river crossing and flooding, a low dizzy is not good The other I'll get too later.
    Now the ECU and all the bit i bought came with a lower dizzi converted give the ecu signals with some timing sensors. It was not a dizzi at all, just a cam timer for the ecu but looked like one.
    Oil was leaking quite heavily into it, so obviously something needed to be sorted, but then I thought about it, the lower dizzy was never meant to be used to such a degree of accuracy as I was hoping for.
    Compared to a sensor that sits on the end of the cam, this sensor had to get its cam info via the timing belt, into a shaft, transferred 90 degrees with a gear drive then transfered to a dizzy shaft.
    I thought about it and wiggled and wobbled the shaft and was left with the feeling that the easiest way to sort this oil leak was to put a blanking plate over the dizzy drive and move the whole kit uphill to the end of the cam and piss the PS pump off to the bowels of the engine bay where it belongs.

    A quick sighting of the donor wreck R25 shows me its crank operated PS pump will sit just fine in the gap the AC left when I ripped it out so I made the decision to go ahead with the dizzy move and deal with the PS later.

    All the fuego and r21 top dizzies were really low profile and showed no merit as potential dizzy donors for the guts of the EFI sensors, but somehow one of my cars had been converted to R20 points dizzy which gave me a perfect donor to strip its guts and move all the guts of the modded dizzy into.
    Easier said than done until I worked out the dizzies are serviceable once you find the roll pin under the spring.
    The head i'm using of course was not set up for a top dizzy or PS and has a brass plug instead, so I'm stopped in my tracks finishing the new dizzy until I can get the plug out, all the rockers replaced with the alloy r21 set I need to get cleaned up, and the cam reinstalled and showing its marks so I can replicate the relationship the guts had in its previous housing.
    I'm not for a second going to assume that the timing cog that controls the former dizzy was set on the right tooth and would make a straight swap up to the top location.


    This is one of the 2 dizzy sensors. The other is in the stainless steel cap and has an iron 'rotor button' that gives it a signal once per revolution.

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    This is the mess of dizzies i had by the end of the night.



    Fingers crossed i can get the cam seal to do its job and not allow much oil into the finished one.

    Jo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-timing-sensor.jpg   84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-stripped.jpg  

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Running a high fever last night and today( peaked at 40) gave me plenty of time to mess around on the project .

    Started with picking the lifters up from the cleaners.


    Then I had to work out how to get the two shafts out, the rocker retaining shaft and the cam.



    A pin, a few bolts and a bit of persuasion here and there soon had the head fairly nude whereby it got a good clean up.
    The welch plug up the ened of the cam was harbouring some of the hardest glazed rosin I've even had to deal with. That took about an hour on its own




    I got to the r25 wreck and pulled the PS gear.
    If I had any hopes of using the PS pulley they were dashed when I realised it was a bigger pulley size so the pump is going to need a good bracket to poke it forward of the motor.



    I'd never paid much attention to this part apart from it always being covered in rat shit, but I realised this was a PS fluid cooler so I'l use that too on the fuego.


    Here is a pic of the flywheel. A few grams lighter than oe.




    Jo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-alloy-rocckers.jpg   84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-steel-rocker-gear.jpg   84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-no-rocker-gear.jpg   84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-flywheel.jpg   84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-ps-pump-location.jpg   84 fuego resto thread Mk 2-r25-oil-cooler.jpg  


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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    But - Fuegos have the TDC pick up off the flywheel. Why bother with the old fashioned distributor based pickup?

    Having it under the manifold is no different, especially when all it has is a rotor and a cap!

    If the cambelt is happy running a pwr steering pump off the rear of the cam, its not going to give two hoots about the distributor! The cam load is not an issue - its just a steel shaft and you're not going to twist it with those loads! The cambelt I think is still under stressed - a pwr steer pump presents less load than a diesel pump for example.

    Short version - not seeing any reason to alter the original setup. But if you do, the R25 has the pump mounting brackets you're looking for.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    But - Fuegos have the TDC pick up off the flywheel. Why bother with the old fashioned distributor based pickup?
    Not old fashioned at all...modern sequential injection twin coil pack system

    Having it under the manifold is no different, especially when all it has is a rotor and a cap!
    Rotor and lid. I am aiming to have al the electrics up high away from water
    If the cambelt is happy running a pwr steering pump off the rear of the cam, its not going to give two hoots about the distributor! The cam load is not an issue - its just a steel shaft and you're not going to twist it with those loads! The cambelt I think is still under stressed - a pwr steer pump presents less load than a diesel pump for example.
    I'm not worrying about the cam, I'm worried about the belt. I can stall the car with the steering so loads are not tiny like a cam angle sensor.

    Short version - not seeing any reason to alter the original setup. But if you do, the R25 has the pump mounting brackets you're looking for.
    Yes, and I dont think it will fit on the passengers side under the alternator unless i remove the front engine mount or re engineer it.
    The r25 has proper side engine mounts and does away with the front mount



    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    But - Fuegos have the TDC pick up off the flywheel. Why bother with the old fashioned distributor based pickup?

    Having it under the manifold is no different, especially when all it has is a rotor and a cap!

    If the cambelt is happy running a pwr steering pump off the rear of the cam, its not going to give two hoots about the distributor! The cam load is not an issue - its just a steel shaft and you're not going to twist it with those loads! The cambelt I think is still under stressed - a pwr steer pump presents less load than a diesel pump for example.

    Short version - not seeing any reason to alter the original setup. But if you do, the R25 has the pump mounting brackets you're looking for.
    It's not that easy unfortunately,

    The problem is that the Fuego (and most Renault's of the era with the Integrated Ignition Modules) run an unusual pulse sequence that most aftermarket EFI computers can't interpret.

    The computer also needs to know whether cylinder 1 or 4 is about to fire and it can't get that info from the Crank alone.

  6. #6
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    Default Oil pump load on cam/distributor

    Interesting project Jo,

    and as Haakon says. There is also load/energy absorbed in the distributor cam train in that it also drives the oil pump pickup in the sump.

    Think Mistarenno is also well on the way with his modifications to the Fuego engine - willhave to have a match race after production.

    Ken.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Fair enough. I still think the cam belt is up to the job though. Never heard of them breaking early because of the pwr steer loads at any rate.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Fair enough. I still think the cam belt is up to the job though. Never heard of them breaking early because of the pwr steer loads at any rate.
    OK, fair enough I'm being paranoid, but there is no denying it is butt ugly up there.
    I've always hated the look of it, so here is my chance to get rid of the parasite.

    Its not like I'm doing all this because i need to move the dizzy.
    Its just that I might as well do it now so it is done and I never have to give it a second thought.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I got to the r25 wreck and pulled the PS gear.
    If I had any hopes of using the PS pulley they were dashed when I realised it was a bigger pulley size so the pump is going to need a good bracket to poke it forward of the motor.



    Jo
    I don't follow Jo, why can't you use the R25 PS pump?

    I didn't think it would clear the chassis in the normal location, but you seem to have ditched the air con so I though you would have space aplenty on that side of the donk?

    The Argentinian 2.2 Fuego's (below) have the pump on top of the AC Compressor. I have a turbo in that spot which unfortunately rules that option out for me...


  10. #10
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Interesting project Jo,


    Think Mistarenno is also well on the way with his modifications to the Fuego engine - willhave to have a match race after production.

    Ken.


    Maybe we can have an online Gtech race.



    At this stage the only race I'm interested in is the one pertaining to finishing the build.

    There are so many facets to this build.
    I need to learn IBM computers too. Thats the scariest part about this.

    Moving the PS pump is easy, disabling some code on some un-findable menue is what gives me a rash.



    Jo

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Argentinian and US Fuegos (and R21s) also got the mutli V serpentine belt setup too - much better.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/89-Re...e#ht_882wt_920
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    I don't follow Jo, why can't you use the R25 PS pump?
    I can and will use the r25 pump.

    What I cant do without major mods is use it in the same spot as they do in the R25 and by default must ditch the mounts
    The r25 has a whopping great cast alloy bracket attached to the front of the block, about 20mm thick which the ac (in fuego location) and the ps pump near the alt are attached to.

    If I ditched the front mount, it would get easier I supose, and I'd still have room for an Ac compressor and a turbo, but I like my front mount where it is.


    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I can and will use the r25 pump.

    What I cant do without major mods is use it in the same spot as they do in the R25 and by default must ditch the mounts
    The r25 has a whopping great cast alloy bracket attached to the front of the block, about 20mm thick which the ac (in fuego location) and the ps pump near the alt are attached to.

    If I ditched the front mount, it would get easier I supose, and I'd still have room for an Ac compressor and a turbo, but I like my front mount where it is.


    Jo
    Ah, gotya.

    I must've misread the post.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Ditch the front mount, and add a second to gearbox would be my approach. Use the R25 setup as per factory.

    The front mount and one gearbox mount was not the best idea Renault ever had in my humble opinion...

    Dint someone here do this using R18 gearbox mounts?
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Argentinian and US Fuegos (and R21s) also got the mutli V serpentine belt setup too - much better.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/89-Re...e#ht_882wt_920
    My r25 has that for the ac only.


    Jo

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    My r25 has that for the ac only.


    Jo
    The other beauty of the seppo setup is that all the accessory belts are in front of the timing belt...
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    Ditch the front mount, and add a second to gearbox would be my approach. Use the R25 setup as per factory.

    The front mount and one gearbox mount was not the best idea Renault ever had in my humble opinion...

    Dint someone here do this using R18 gearbox mounts?
    You opinion (and those of the other posters on this thread) is a worthy one, and i always appreciate it
    The thought of keeping that big alloy front brace is getting more appealing by the minute.

    Its one strep forward and two backwards at this stage.


    Jo

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    bob
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    G'day Jo,

    the r20 put the PS pump under the alternator with it's own belt off the crank front - too squeezy ? I'm with you on the Fuego PS location, tiny dribbles make a hell of mess where it is now, be better down below somewhere.

    Like the idea of the upgrade to modern ignition system but beware the r20 dizzy, they leak from the internal seal as they age and it was an unobtainable when I was looking for one. I managed to get a brand new dizzy to fix the problem - which was a good deal as it also fixed the crappy action plate earthing that the old one had and other ignition foibles. I seem to recall that the bearing service alternative seals were either fatter with the same OD or same thickness but larger OD - a fatter one won't worry you if the action plate is now gone ?

    Excuse my poor education, but, don't the after-market setups have a "toothed wheel" to supply sensor data for ignition and EFI ?

    cheers,
    Bob

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    G'day Jo,

    the r20 put the PS pump under the alternator with it's own belt off the crank front - too squeezy ? I'm with you on the Fuego PS location, tiny dribbles make a hell of mess where it is now, be better down below somewhere.

    Like the idea of the upgrade to modern ignition system but beware the r20 dizzy, they leak from the internal seal as they age and it was an unobtainable when I was looking for one. I managed to get a brand new dizzy to fix the problem - which was a good deal as it also fixed the crappy action plate earthing that the old one had and other ignition foibles. I seem to recall that the bearing service alternative seals were either fatter with the same OD or same thickness but larger OD - a fatter one won't worry you if the action plate is now gone ?

    Excuse my poor education, but, don't the after-market setups have a "toothed wheel" to supply sensor data for ignition and EFI ?

    cheers,
    Bob
    Hi Bob. Thanks for the support re PS pump.

    No need to excuse your ignorance on After market EFI, it is prety complex at first.

    In the first photo of post one, you can see the sensor and the trigger wheel. Its not really a wheel, more like a cylinder with slots cut out leaving 4 gaps and 4 'posts'. The black placky bit is the sensor.
    There is also another sensor to orient the sensors to tdc cyl1.

    I phoned Ken and he doesn't have new r20 dizzy housings, so I will have to go down the path of gettng a seal put in by a specialists.
    Anyone know anyone in sydney??
    MY mate who is also doing a rebuild and has come up against the same problem will need the same job so its x2.


    Jo



    Jo

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Today is parts location day.
    This is like an international trading game with random rules.

    Spoke to David Collier and he seems fairly confident he has some r20 dizzy shaft seals, which would be a ripper because having watched him work in his machine shop I have total confidence in his engineering skills.
    Replacing seals succesfully is not my forte.


    Jo

  21. #21
    bob
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    G'day Jo,

    if you have pulled out the auto advance stuff from under the action plate you should have heaps of space to use the fatter "standard" seal if you can't get OEM. If you are still pushed for room the thinner seal will go in if the hole is made a little bigger, simple machining job for someone that knows what they are doing - check out your local model engineer club, you know, the fellas that have the sit on model trains.

    Could even be done by hand if you were keen enough, turn a dizzy shaft into a boring bar, with a bit of luck the roll pin hole might even hold a piece of HSS from a drill bit...... be a satisfying exercise to get it right, but you only get as many chances as you have bodies to play with :-)

    On the sensor thingy, I thought that there was this pressed/milled metal disk with teeth on it that they attached to the crank pulley ? and the dizzy was superfluous ?

    cheers,
    Bob

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob View Post
    On the sensor thingy, I thought that there was this pressed/milled metal disk with teeth on it that they attached to the crank pulley ? and the dizzy was superfluous ?

    cheers,
    Bob
    There is no single way mount a cam/crank angle sensor, its just easy peasy to do off a dizzy housing as it is secure and away from anything that might damage it or alter its alignment.




    Jo

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    All this fun stuff like messing around with engines and ecu's has had to take dose of reality, that in a few weeks the car is up for rego and there is just one issue to sort, being the big crack on the passenges side of the windscreen.

    Screens and rubbers are becoming scarce, so i made the decision to try and extract from a wreck both the screen and the rubber at the same time, rather than cut the rubber.

    Now there there is a 'proffi spare parts' surplus of rubbers.
    I cracked the screen.

    Glad I live on an acreage, because after I cracked the second last screen in existence as far as I know, I'd have enlarged the profane vocabulary of any small children within 200m if I lived in the burbs.

    This left just one screen, and after a few minutes it was clear that breaking this one was not an option.
    If it has a dollar value, I'd say I'd already taken one $700 fall breaking the screen on my daily driver, another breaking the first potential replacement so another was not even worth considering.With that in mind I carefully cut the inside facet of the rubber.
    There is going to come a day when I do a bonded screen and just stick this rubber over the top as dressing, so I cut it with this criteria and just lifted the screen out.

    Also cut the end off my finger on a messy spot weld, but thats nothing unusual.

    So now I have to pull the screen and rubber out of my car.
    Thats going to be fun, as both the rubber and the screen are bonded with high strength urathane.
    At least I can just boot this one out with little regard to reusing either part
    I'm budgeting two days off the road to replace the screen in anticipation of having to touch up the metal work.

    Lesson learned from all this, dont ignore bulls-eyes in the glass.


    Jo

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    Removing Fuego Windscreens are a pain!!

    Every time I have tried to get screen out carefully, they seem to crack on the edge- almost seems they age and get brittle.

    In thinking about the problem, perhaps we aren't ruthless enough, as I have seen the windscreen guys just prop themselves in the front seat, put both feet firmly on the windscreen and it pops out with ease and all in one piece!

    Never tried this myself , but I did pay to put a new windscreen into my sons Fuego, (cost then $180 I think) and will probably try and save it before his car is consigned to scrap, I'll loosen the edges of the rubber where it fits to the metal and try the feet pushing method (could practice on the cracked widscreen of Di's old car) and see how it goes.

    Jo have you shopped around as to availability of new windscreens and cost of fitting as an alternative to using old glass.!

    Ken

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! tasgill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Removing Fuego Windscreens are a pain!!

    In thinking about the problem, perhaps we aren't ruthless enough, as I have seen the windscreen guys just prop themselves in the front seat, put both feet firmly on the windscreen and it pops out with ease and all in one piece!

    Ken
    Are you sure they weren't pushing out a safety glass screen? Those things will take all sorts of punishment whilst fitting or removing, where the laminated screen will take very little effort to crack. Carefully and very gently with the car out in the sun is your only chance, apart from cutting them out.
    I have pushed out a few successfully, but it needed three people, two inside gently pushing with their feet, and one outside trying to keep the rubber from holding any pressure on the screen. I have also broken quite a few.

    Very important to get the sun on the screen to get the glass as warm as possible.
    I haven't attempted a Feugo.

    Cheers
    Terry

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