Painting - why so difficult
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Painting - why so difficult

    I started this in the 'Toad Pond' because it was a bit of a rant at the beginning - mainly because I was Teed-off with a bodywork repair that failed prematurely, amplified by lack of 'wise words' later when I sought some help (not lack of wise words from this forum I hasten to add!). Anyway the story so far including replies to date is under (sorry don't know how to "move" the thread between forums so this is just a repeat from the 'Print' version ):

    baldrick56
    1 Attachment(s)
    How to get annoyed
    Just in case any of you were wondering I've found the definitive way to get really annoyed. I'm not talking ordinary annoyed - like Alan Jones, I'm talking Mega pissed off.


    What you do is this, discover that your newly purchased pride & joy has a rust patch. Attack said patch with wire brushing, generous doses of "rust converter," followed by layers of paint, knifing stopper, wet & dry sanding, more paint, following the instructions on the tin at each stage until the panel's looking pristine once more. Drive around in your sparkling set of wheels, park outside because sadly there's no room in the garage as it's full of other prides & joys. Notice with horror one day while cleaning the car that your wonderful repair has split down the middle & each side is peeling away from the panel like a badly applied poultice. OK you're now mostly annoyed - but wait, there's more.


    Decide to seek learned opinion on what might be the cause of the paintwork malaise, go to your local club meet one day tell the whole sorry tale to the guru there present. Receive a lecture as if you were an idiot child on rubbing down to bare metal, priming, painting ............................ BUT I F******ING DID ALL THAT you want to scream - but of course you dont.


    Anyway for the record, now that I've calmed down (kind of) this is how clean I got the metal on the second attempt at the same repair
    Painting - why so difficult-p1030326.jpg
    is it "SA2.5" no idea since I haven't got one of those reference panels, just know it's as clean as I can get it. Also for the record followed up with 'Rustoleum' Rusty Metal primer (2 coats), Rustoleum finishing enamel (1 Coat), Knifing Stopper (2 coat) - yet to sand down & do the 'Dupli Colour' spray to match the rest - we'll see

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    21st May 2018, 08:07 PMrobmac
    I am of the opinion that rust is never really removed, it's only well hidden.


    Almost every major rust repair I've ever done, always seems to have some rust appear again after several years.


    From galvanized steel fence posts to vehicle panels and chassis.

    Advertisement



    Rust, once deep seated in the steel always wants to come back.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    21st May 2018, 08:15 PMbaldrick56
    Robmac,
    I'm with you there - but in this case it was about 6 months! There's something weird going on with that panel, the rust was an oval shape, there was no sign of any scuff or impact damage to cause the thing in the first place. Don't know if brake fluid or some other solvent once got spilt there. Anyway it's the original 'Groundhog day' repair.
    Regards, Rob

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    21st May 2018, 09:08 PMschlitzaugen
    I think there's still a lot of rust left on the panel in that picture.


    Rust converters don't work if they can't get to the rust, and even then, you need to leave the area exposed for a while to make sure you got all of it. I applied rust converter to a very rusty surface and left it exposed for a few years and noticed that it took a while for the converter to get properly hard and stop the rusting process.


    That said, I would suggest you try POR15 or similar. These are paints (I think they are some sort of polyurethane) formulated to oxidise when exposed to humidity and it is advertised they suck the oxygen out of rust when they set, which stops the rusting process. I have used it, and it seems to work (or at least last way more than 6 months). The formulation is designed so the paint can go directly on rust. You still need to clean the metal, but a little surface rust is not going to be a problem. Surface prep is pretty straightforward, but coating over POR15 involves some insulating layer, depending on what paint you want to use.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    21st May 2018, 10:00 PMdino
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by baldrick56;
    Attachment 106125 it's as clean as I can get it.


    That may be the case... but that is clearly not ready for filling/priming/painting... I notice the black streak from rust converter and panel is shiny... it should be black...
    I d resand, treat with rust converter/dissolver... reapply water mist to reactivate...at least 2 or 3 times and allow a few days rest... then light wash/wipe... fill... sand... prime...sand... paint... let cure... rub back... cut and polish...


    Have look at this vid to see what I mean... maybe ignore the first half... play from middle on...


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0RfTCyGYYA


    cheers





    dino

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    21st May 2018, 11:44 PMJBN
    Neil Young put out an album years ago called RUST NEVER SLEEPS. He might have been on to something.


    John
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    22nd May 2018, 07:15 AMBeano
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    "I've found the definitive way to get really annoyed. I'm not talking ordinary annoyed - like Alan Jones, I'm talking Mega pissed off."
    Alan Jones started as a teacher at my school (Brisbane Grammar) in 1970. He was a very irritated person even then. After hearing his sharp penetrating voice tear strips off boys there, I vowed to avoid him at all costs. Luckily I didn't have him as a teacher or have anything to do with him.




    Baldrick....that rust on the border of metal and paint in your photo....how far out did that extend ? Because it can go quite a way. You did strip back the entire panel, didn't you ?


    I rarely get rust coming back. I discovered (the hard way) that rust converter only really treats a very thin layer of rust, so there is any thickness there will always be rust underneath. So I only use it in certain applications. I've even used 100% phosphoric acid on thoick rust and (after it takes a month or two to dry ) it tends to form a glaze, trapping in the deep rust....which can be ok I guess.


    For surface areas on panels, usually I hit the area with a couple of wire wheels on my drill. For any deep pitting I use a stubby wire wheel which is stiffer. I make sure the area is bright and shiny, then apply primer within a short space of time so that moisture from the atmosphere does not affect it. And I never touch it with my hands during that time, as moisture from skin will start rust. And of course I never blow dust off with lung power for the same reason.




    For any rust in seams I apply high-temperature wheel bearing grease if it is inside a panel, then just leave it there. The grease works its way into the seam via capillary action. On the outside I paint first, just so there is no chance of grease spoiling the paint adhering.
    If I cannot get inside the panel easily, fish oil works fine. Both methods smell a bit odd for a while, but not too long.
    Capillary action is your friend.


    Once I treated the boot lid of a friend's 504 (which had holes in the thin rear-facing edge...as they do) and poured in a small quantity of linseed oil because it was a hard to access space, then left it stand upside-down for a few days before I turned it right side up and poured out the excess. It smelt very nice, and I knew that it eventually gets gummy. I saw the car ten years later and there was no sign of rust, even though I had only applied a thin coat of body filler to the rust holes.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    22nd May 2018, 01:25 PMbaldrick56
    Thanks Schlitz, Dino, JBN, & Beano,


    No that's the panel just before I wiped it over with acetone & started putting back the layers. Yup there maybe a trace of light brown exiting about '5 o'clock' but I don't want to be in the business of an entire respray (yet). If you think of the pic as a 'target' the bit that failed was a little above 'bullseye' point then vertically downward - nowhere near any remnant that might now be visible. The failure was really one of 'debonding' of the original primer to the 'rust converter' (as the 'guru' could've looked at in the club carpark if he wasn't too busy telling me how to wire brush ) Also have reflected on the fact that my first car (read "Rusty heap") needed lots of similar repairs to the body, all were successful back then, haven't changed my technique in all those years, so why didn't it work as before? I half wonder if the paints & things we bought in the 1970's, made to (probably) very un-eco friendly specs were better (in terms of protection) than what comes out of the paint factories now - discuss. Haven't tried the 'POR15' stuff but I have used (on the Traction) 'KBS' coatings system which is the Aussie made equivalent of POR15.


    I waver wildly between going for the costly specialist products, then getting exasperated & just buying wotever's on offer at local Repco (think I was in that phase when I did thefirst fix on the panel in question thus it would've been Repco-branded rust converter, primer from the back of the cupboard & Dupli-colour topcoat), this time I've moved upmarket a bit with the 'Rustoleum' hooch. The other thing that annoys me is the practical impossibility of achieving the conditions set out on the tins of these things - sample "Apply in temperatures over 10 deg. C. and humidity less than 85%" - try achieving that in the Blue Mountains in Winter. And yes I probably haven't really got the patience - always try & get too much applied in one go.


    The internal box sections are a lot easier - after all doesn't matter what the end product looks like. I've given all my vehicles the 'Lanotec' treatment using a compressor to blow the stuff in. Didnt think about Linseed oil - that's a very traditional anti corrosion coating - the Victorians used it on their iron bridges & things.


    I'll let the putty harden off a couple of days, sand down, more primer & topcoat & we'll see what she looks like.
    R

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    22nd May 2018, 02:13 PMschlitzaugen
    Beano is right. The rust converter does not penetrate deep. In fact, the instructions tell you that much. When I tested the panel I mentioned above, I just applied rust converter directly with no prep to see what happens. After a few days when it had turned hard, I wire brushed the patch with a hand brush and a lot of dark powder came off uncovering more rust underneath. I repeated the exercise a few times until I got bored, but I am sure there was more rust underneath.


    POR15 and similar paints are also to be applied after you clean all the scaly/powdery rust, otherwise it doesn't bond permanently. The way I understand it, these products acknowledge the fact that you can never perfectly clean rust off metal and are designed to deal with a small amount of rust left after a good clean by reacting with moisture (rust is a complex mix of hydrated Fe oxides). I am not sure what reaction takes place, but it does look like the paint is well and truly bonded with the metal. In fact, POR15 reacts with atmospheric moisture so well, it goes rock hard in the tin after you open it.


    As for application conditions, you just have to wait. Too low a temperature and reactions don't happen. Too much humidity and the paint doesn't stick. Leave it for summer. Why do you think cars are painted in climate controlled factories? Did you think they were trying to create a comfortable environment for the workers?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    22nd May 2018, 02:31 PM1972Ren
    HI,
    I think the idea that POR15 won't adhere to non rusty bare metal, can't be true. If it was, then you couldn't use it until you let some surface rust appear across then entire object. It would be useless for, say, treating a sandblasted chassis and so on. There is an aussie competitor called KBS which does the same thing, is more widely available, and I think is cheaper.


    Regards,
    Andy

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    22nd May 2018, 03:57 PMdino
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by baldrick56 View Post
    And yes I probably haven't really got the patience
    Bugger... you are missing the vital quality for a decent repair...


    ahh well... i think we ve all been guilty of it... and a shitttyy climate certainly doesnt help...


    you ll get there...


    good luck...





    cheers


    dino

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    22nd May 2018, 04:44 PMschlitzaugen
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 1972Ren View Post
    HI,
    "I think the idea that POR15 won't adhere to non rusty bare metal, can't be true. If it was, then you couldn't use it until you let some surface rust appear across then entire object. It would be useless for, say, treating a sandblasted chassis and so on. There is an aussie competitor called KBS which does the same thing, is more widely available, and I think is cheaper.


    Regards,
    Andy"


    I am not suggesting POR15 is the only option, and it is indeed very expensive.


    I think the way it is formulated to work is by polymerising in presence of water, but I don't know what gives it the bond. You need to use a cleaner (which I think is alkaline) and a rust converter (which is acid, hence it neutralises the cleaner solution) and then wipe the metal with a damp cloth. This leaves the metal oxidised superficially, which together with the water film and whatever rust is left provides (I guess) the oxygen needed for the polymerising reaction to take place. I think it is a bit more complicated than that, but that is the gist of it as far as I can figure it out. I have used it, and adherence is very strong. POR recommend it ideally be used directly on sandblasted metal probably because it has the best key to grip on (again after treatment with the other two solutions in the package).


    I am very suspicious in general about paints that go directly on metal with no prep and haven't had good results with any I have tried. I have treated my car with POR15 and three years later seems to hold up very well. The paint goes almost as tough as an enamel, you can hardly scratch it with metal tools.
    22nd May 2018, 09:22 PMJBN
    I sandblasted the front and rear suspension arms, the suspension tubes and the spring tubes of Daffyduck and then applied POR15 directly onto the cleaned metal. That was in 2008 and it still looks good. The POR15 loses its gloss when exposed to sunlight, but since these are chassis items it makes no difference. With the new chassis, which was painted black, I coated this with Rustguard as POR15 is not recommended over existing (non POR15) paints.


    John
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

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  2. #2
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    NOW - Part TWO,

    Oh yes, well I had the impertinence to go off for a couple of days doing other things like earning a living and making a trip to the dentist. Came back to sand down & apply topcoats to complete repair and this is what I found:
    Painting - why so difficult-p1030336.jpgPainting - why so difficult-p1030337.jpg

    So I take back all the nasty things I said above about modern paints not being as good - they at least slowed the process that took a couple of days this time to between four & six months last time around.

    Worse was to come because when I loaded the wire brush back into the drill & (with overwhelming enthusiasm ) attacked the panels once more great chunks of the filler spewed off (which I was expecting), bonded to them was every preceding paint layer.

    Put some of these on a piece of paper, some face up, some reversed as below:
    Painting - why so difficult-p1030352.jpg

    So what's going on here? Interestingly there was one panel I removed from the car (between bonnet & windshield, just 'cos I could) and took inside the garage - that got the same treatment and doesn't appear to have failed (yet) in the same manner (though there is the tiniest crack at the edge):
    Painting - why so difficult-p1030338.jpg

    The 'culprit' is this stuff:
    Painting - why so difficult-p1030347.jpg

    I'm saying (in my previous rantiloque) that I was always successful in the past with my first car but I was never aware of the above stuff then & I was always mystified that no matter how many layers of paint I slathered on you could still see the 'crater' where the repair met the original paint - when (years later) I discovered the above it was like the answer to a maidens prayer - at last you could bring the levels to match before that final topcoat, so "successful" in those days meant rust didn't appear but the "patch" was obvious. I've looked upon it like "thickened paint" but it seems to have a sting in its tail

    GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
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    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
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    1988 Mercedes 300E
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts driven's Avatar
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    The black dots need cleaning up

    Your list of products being used does not have an etch primer to bond to metal

    As good as many how to fix including cleaning

    How To Spot Paint Repair On A Car

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    To me that bubbling and flaking looks like an incompatibility between the spot putty/ filler and the undercoat or even the rustoleum or the original paint.

    The last time I saw something like that was when a mate sprayed 2k over an original auto enamel finish.

    Paint compatibility is a minefield and there so many "gotchas" one can understand why the pros only deal in bare metal and 2k finishes.
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    There is some contamination there .... probably silicon (silicon is evil stuff). It appears to me that you need to go back to bare metal. Use a metal prep on it to remove any contaminants.... If you want to go cheap. Get this primer. It is the ONLY rattle can primer I've found that works as advertised:

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Hichem-S...QAAOSwuD9Z3MYl

    your local autobody shop will have it. Your putty must go against the bare metal .... I wouldn't use spot putty at all. Get the surface right first. Then top coat with whatever your favorite flavour of paint is

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    Not all fillers need to go onto bare metal, I use upol fantastic and it sticks to most things.

    If you are unsure on what filler to use go to an automotive paint shop and ask them. Then just hand over dollars.

    Hichem products are not great, upol makes a good acid etch primer in a spray can but expect it to be $30 or so.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    upol makes a good acid etch primer in a spray can
    Handy for "rub throughs" too.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c.lees View Post
    Not all fillers need to go onto bare metal, I use upol fantastic and it sticks to most things.

    If you are unsure on what filler to use go to an automotive paint shop and ask them. Then just hand over dollars.

    Hichem products are not great, upol makes a good acid etch primer in a spray can but expect it to be $30 or so.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Seriously .... Try that Hi-chem epoxy primer. You will not be disappointed. Its nothing short of brilliant. Being cheap is just a side benefit. I have never tried there top coats. Even the local auto paint specialists I use sell that Hi-chem primer!

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    Try that Hi-chem epoxy primer. You will not be disappointed. Its nothing short of brilliant
    But not over lead loading.
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    Sorry... just as an aside Baldrick... you dont mind if I ask you a question:














































    ARE YOU BLIND?....







    cheers
    dino

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    I m joking.... alrighttttt...

    Yeah I think the stop putty is definitely your culprit... I experienced similar recently working on an old bronco... Just had to redo the lot... I used a standard filler intstead of putty... all is well now...


    cheers

    dino

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    I agree with others who said so-called rust converters don't work. Have tried then all and the rust always comes back.

    Only solution is to remove ALL rusted metal and then paint with 2K epoxy primer. This is a 2 part primer which is expensive to buy but worth it. Paint onto bear metal to seal the metal from moisture then do any filling AFTER that, sand and prime again and then top coat. All other primers will allow moisture through to the metal and all fillers and paint will also allow moisture through to the metal so seal the metal first with epoxy.

    I took big 2 glass jars to my local panel beater and he filled them up with primer and hardener fir $50.

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    Default spot repair over rust

    Quote Originally Posted by nisspug2 View Post
    I agree with others who said so-called rust converters don't work. Have tried then all and the rust always comes back.

    Only solution is to remove ALL rusted metal and then paint with 2K epoxy primer. This is a 2 part primer which is expensive to buy but worth it. Paint onto bear metal to seal the metal from moisture then do any filling AFTER that, sand and prime again and then top coat. All other primers will allow moisture through to the metal and all fillers and paint will also allow moisture through to the metal so seal the metal first with epoxy.

    I took big 2 glass jars to my local panel beater and he filled them up with primer and hardener fir $50.
    The comparability of your products are key here check your paint product and if it is the same product as we have here you will find that it contains Acetone which is a harsher /stronger solvent than enamel or lacquer reducer ! with all the modern paints today to keep things from reacting I would follow the suggestion of a clean base metal than a seal coat of epoxy primer followed by a polyester 2 part filler if needed and than the same 2 part spot putty not the lacquer base spot putty. The paint with the acetone component should not react or the rustolem paint should not react with any of the base products . I have great success with spot blasting small area's than using the 2 part epoxy primer sealing the area for any of my rust repairs . if rust dose come back it may be coming right through a porous panel from the back side so a good oiling after the painting is done on the back side or greasing if you can get at it will also possibly help .

    The other thing I would be careful with is high humidity when doing repairs and also making sure enough time between each phase of repair to allow all the trap solvents to escape prior to the next step .

    hope this is helpful

    Manic GT

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    Thanks Guys,

    well my eyesight's not what it used to be I'll admit - but the earlier photo was where I left it at the point I judged wise to halt before impending cold & dark affected another layer of putty that it probably needed. I've bought myself a fresh tin of 'standard bog' now - polyester resin where you mix part A with part B then have to work like a manic dervish before it's hardened. Don't like the stuff for that reason plus the (condemned) putty I was using before went on like cake-icing whereas the bog is like trying to apply mozzarella by comparison. Then when you've finished & let it set, the polycrap you have to scritch away for ages using coarse/medium/fine paper whereas the putty was soft enough to do it all with just the fine grade.

    So away we go again tomorrow (weather permitting).

    Regards,

    Rob
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

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    Well, second attempt

    read the destructions on the tin of 'mozzarella bog' - first line it said "do not apply over painted surface".............................

    Guess what I did?

    anyway it went on, horribly stringy & air bubbly, let it set, sanded down with coarse wet n' dry, switched to fine & (predictably) there were a couple of divots where I hadn't put enough on. Primered it once more & topcoat's now on - no photos (maybe when I've hit it with the cutting paste in 7 days I'll post some.

    Happy fixing,

    Rob
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

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    Too many distractions taking me away from 404 efforts recently (as reported in "505 now it won't go" - shameless plug)

    anyway, there it is:

    Painting - why so difficult-p1030409.jpg

    Painting - why so difficult-p1030410.jpg

    Never going to win any prizes - but I'll just be happy if the ******ing rust doesn't come back.

    Happy fixing
    Rob
    may all your plans be cunning ones,
    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
    1988 Mercedes 300E
    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)
    That's one for each day of the week - I really should stop

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