205 road going track car build decisions
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Thread: 205 road going track car build decisions

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! amcc's Avatar
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    Icon5 205 road going track car build decisions

    Well itís been a while (4.5 years) but I think itís time to get a 205 project on the go again. Thought about selling up a few times but it just hasnít happened. A career change and now being self employed has left me with little spare time.

    Fishing for ideas and guidance in this thread, I will start a build thread as things get underway

    I would like to build a car for the odd track day and the occasional drive / run into town.

    I have:
    (all engines need a rebuild)
    -a S3 running a high comp mi16 - haltech e6s -quaif atb diff - gti6 frot brakes and some PeterT arb and torsion bars
    -a S1 rolling shell with S3 interior and font brakes
    -a gti6 complete engine
    -a 205 S3 engine
    -silicon hose kit for a 205gti6 conversion
    -many other 205/405/306 bits

    I want a good full cage and plenty of poke. Will strip back to bodywork inside and out for the cage and a paint job. Donít think I am serious enough (or a good enough driver) to take it back to bare metal

    So do I keep going with the xu9 or start again with the xu10? I have read through a few threads and the 10 is looking like the better option but open to suggestions. Dry sump, up the compression, quad throttle bodies, ecu etc

    I am also unsure which shell to use. S1 is nice and strait. S3 has had some front end damage, panels only so could probably get it fixed up. I have all the bits to make it a standard S3 as it looks like a nice standard 205 is quite the thing these days... one build at a time though. The S1 would make a simpler standard rebuild as hasnít been played with other then the S3 bits.

    Need to be able to get it registered (in some way or another) in Victoria so might need an engineer also. Any recommendations here?

    Iím sure much of this has been discussed before so links / thread suggestions are welcome.

    Step 1 will be clean out the garage and get them both inside.

    Thanks
    Andrew

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    French - 92 205mi16, 87 205gti and spares
    Other - Amarok V6, Iveco Daily 50C17, Isuzu 600

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    A road going track car with a dry sump tank in the back, on TB's, in Victoria?

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Welcome back though. What makes the XU9J4 high compression?

    With what I know now, I'd put the XU10J4RS in, standard, to begin with. Get it registered, then fit an accusump/morsillo accumulator etc as a minimum. This works much better on an XU10 as you can inject straight into the oil gallery.

    You'll have to make a decision on the shell.

    Sell the Quaife and buy a 3J.

    You always put the XU9J4 head on the XU10 block.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Fellow Frogger! amcc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    A road going track car with a dry sump tank in the back, on TB's, in Victoria?
    Why not? My intent in starting this thread is to flesh out what I can / should attempt to do
    French - 92 205mi16, 87 205gti and spares
    Other - Amarok V6, Iveco Daily 50C17, Isuzu 600

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    Fellow Frogger! amcc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    Welcome back though. What makes the XU9J4 high compression?

    With what I know now, I'd put the XU10J4RS in, standard, to begin with. Get it registered, then fit an accusump/morsillo accumulator etc as a minimum. This works much better on an XU10 as you can inject straight into the oil gallery.

    You'll have to make a decision on the shell.

    Sell the Quaife and buy a 3J.

    You always put the XU9J4 head on the XU10 block.
    You helped with the XU9J4 build back in 2007 I think it was. Wiseco pistons and bored out a bit. I would have to go looking but think it was over 11:1 unfortunately it was never the same after its dyno tune. It ran for a few years. Loads of torque but runs out of puff around 5500. Itís been sitting for a few years though and I donít think it would be a good idea to try starting it.

    I donít recall this head swap as a thing?
    French - 92 205mi16, 87 205gti and spares
    Other - Amarok V6, Iveco Daily 50C17, Isuzu 600

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    If you have any mechanical sympathy don't fit a 3J or plate diff on a road car, the clunking is just horrible and unless you are going flat out it will just want to understeer unless you back off when it will abruptly turn in to the corner. The 2 3js and a TranX that I've driven have all been the same. Drive shafts chop out in no time, I never had to change one until I started using the 3J, have gone back to a Quaife as a trial.
    If anything going to a 3J from a Quaife the car was slower, this is on gravel, increased traction but decreased cornering speed because you are stuffing around countering the effects of the diff.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Adjust the diff?

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    The 3 I've driven were all the same so I don't think that was the problem.

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Thats my point though? Did you try adjusting the diff and testing it?

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    Has anyone else used one of these on the road.

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Yea I had one on the road and track. Thats why Im asking. You can set the preload on load and overrun to be aggressive or not.

    Its one of the single most impressive things Ive added to a 205.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    You can adjust the pre-load and the ramp angles. I've got mine wound right up. It would be awful on the street but it's great on the track. It pulls out of corners so much better than a Quaife. Just adjust the 3J to suit your preference.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amcc View Post
    You helped with the XU9J4 build back in 2007 I think it was. Wiseco pistons and bored out a bit. I would have to go looking but think it was over 11:1 unfortunately it was never the same after its dyno tune. It ran for a few years. Loads of torque but runs out of puff around 5500. It’s been sitting for a few years though and I don’t think it would be a good idea to try starting it.

    I don’t recall this head swap as a thing?
    They were 11.25:1. They'll still be fine but I'd sell the bottom end.

    What cams are in the head? Strange that it ran out of puff at 5500. It couldn't have been timed correctly.

    If you have an investment in the head, then bolt it onto the RS block. You'll need to deepen the RS piston pockets which ever head you use.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    The way I understand it, having a full roll cage will make rego difficult in Vic, even on historic plates.
    Definitely talk to an engineer, but I think it's tough to have a cage with good side protection while not impeding egress according to the rules. Clearance to head impact may be an issue too.
    could get Rally reg, but it's limiting and the same price as regular reg.
    206 GTi 180 - Cat Cams, Remapped Group N ECU, AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg fixed camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, Yokohama A050, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Powerflex Engine Mounts & Bushings, Setrab Oil cooler, Quaife diff, Velo seats.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:45.6
    Phillip Island - 1:58.4
    NŁrburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    What about welding the rear and main hoops in, then have bolt-in side bars for race day?
    amcc likes this.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    What about welding the rear and main hoops in, then have bolt-in side bars for race day?
    Yes, potentially. I know Trackart here in Melbourne was getting some removeable hardware tested for FIA certification.

    There might still be issues with head to bar distances for the overhead bars.
    206 GTi 180 - Cat Cams, Remapped Group N ECU, AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg fixed camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, Yokohama A050, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Powerflex Engine Mounts & Bushings, Setrab Oil cooler, Quaife diff, Velo seats.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:45.6
    Phillip Island - 1:58.4
    NŁrburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

  17. #17
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    What happens when you go round a corner with power on but less preload?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    You can adjust the pre-load and the ramp angles. I've got mine wound right up. It would be awful on the street but it's great on the track. It pulls out of corners so much better than a Quaife. Just adjust the 3J to suit your preference.

  18. #18
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    Half price but only for rallies not even track days.

    Quote Originally Posted by speaksgeek View Post
    The way I understand it, having a full roll cage will make rego difficult in Vic, even on historic plates.
    Definitely talk to an engineer, but I think it's tough to have a cage with good side protection while not impeding egress according to the rules. Clearance to head impact may be an issue too.
    could get Rally reg, but it's limiting and the same price as regular reg.

  19. #19
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    You don't need overhead bars, only for National Championship events, my 309 doesn't have them. Too dangerous, the car might survive but your head won't. People get around it by dropping the seat but that makes it difficult to drive.
    You don't even need a cage for track days.

    Quote Originally Posted by speaksgeek View Post
    Yes, potentially. I know Trackart here in Melbourne was getting some removeable hardware tested for FIA certification.

    There might still be issues with head to bar distances for the overhead bars.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! amcc's Avatar
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    Thanks for the comments. I will look into the diff options. It’s an easy change at any point... I do want road reg as otherwise it won’t get driven enough. I don’t expect to make it to more than a couple of track days a year. I now live within an hour of Winton though so will have to check it out. Sounding like it might be wise to leave a few things until after it is on the road. Any advice on finding an engineer to go over things with? Cage especially. Only track I have driven to date is Philip Island and I want to go back. I think it’s wise to have a good cage though...
    French - 92 205mi16, 87 205gti and spares
    Other - Amarok V6, Iveco Daily 50C17, Isuzu 600

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    Fellow Frogger! amcc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    They were 11.25:1. They'll still be fine but I'd sell the bottom end.

    What cams are in the head? Strange that it ran out of puff at 5500. It couldn't have been timed correctly.

    If you have an investment in the head, then bolt it onto the RS block. You'll need to deepen the RS piston pockets which ever head you use.
    It pulls hard from 1000 rpm yes timing is likely the issue. Got 92fwkw on the dyno so not too bad. My original plan (years back) was to get some variable cam pulleys on it. Think exhaust was standard and stage 1 inlet from yours truly. Will see if I can find the info. Was before the af crash...

    What compression does the XU9J4 head on the RS block give? Why is the XU9J4 head the better option? Always wanted to use a gti6 exhaust manifold, O well.
    French - 92 205mi16, 87 205gti and spares
    Other - Amarok V6, Iveco Daily 50C17, Isuzu 600

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    There's no real advantage in having the XU9J4 head other than if you already have invested in it. ie cams, reconditioning, wedge etc. Cams are cheaper for an XU9J4.

    You'll need another wedge for the RS head and pipes. An RS head has dual valve springs, vernier pulleys and cam position sensor which are obvious advantages, along with better oil control.

    All in all, the RS head advantages outweighs any disadvantages.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    Yea I had one on the road and track. Thats why Im asking. You can set the preload on load and overrun to be aggressive or not.

    Its one of the single most impressive things Ive added to a 205.
    Hi Cam. I remember driving (and driving in) that car. You need to be truly hard core to live with that set-up on the road!

    Sent from my BBB100-1 using Tapatalk
    GRAHAM WALLIS likes this.

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Yes Rich thats right. That was before I adjusted it! After it was much easier.


    The OP is apparently driving to the track on the road not a daily. The plate diff on tarmac is light years agead of the quaife. If it were me dping it again I would still use a plate diff. I would run power steer though. I was running more castor and camber and toe out with a quick rack and no power steer. Was a handful for sure!!

    If its a track car. Put a plate in it.

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    Fellow Frogger! Brett's Avatar
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    There is thicker spacer that can be fitted to the 3J that increases the preload, but requires disassembly for fitting.
    I'm about to order another set to do my Father In Laws 206 as the clunking has increased over the last track day season.
    I'll grab an extra couple of spacers if you are interested Graham.

    I have one 3J and one torque biasing LSD in stock
    Bathurst______2 57.22 Sandown______1 35.29
    Mallala_______1 22.90 Phillip Island___1 56.41
    Winton_______1.43.90 Collingrove______38.08
    Wakefield Park_1 09.46 (Parry's car)

    http://www.ebay.com.au/usr/frogstomp_racing

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