Ash's track day 205
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Thread: Ash's track day 205

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Default Ash's track day 205

    I picked up this '91 GTI last week. It has been used as a track day car for the last 15 years and is in surprisingly good shape. The cage seems to have held it together, with no observable (yet) stress cracks, even the dash is excellent. Tough little cars!

    It is pretty standard apart from what you can see. Just an exhaust and air filter, brakes and suspension.
    Plan is to give it a second lease on life, with new paint and heaps of new bits. I think I will use it to entertain my mates at a few track days and hill climbs. It has actually been on full rego in VIC but I am looking into whether there is any chance of getting a RWC with a full cage. This will dictate whether it becomes a trailer car or not.

    Stage 2 will probably mean a worked 8v or 16v. I want an opinion from you guys about what makes sense in 2017 on engine conversions. I think I would be very happy with a NA cammy Mi16 that screamed up to the redline but perhaps a more modern engine with some internal work would be better? Graham has volunteered to do all the work for a slab so it has to be pretty easy :>

    Other questions: The car has a motorsport log book and CAMs approved cage from 15 years ago. The car feels fantastically rigid compared to my standard cars but the hoops are not tagged to the pillars - is this normal? should I improve the cage in some logical way before painting it?

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    Also, I see the effort Bluey went to seam welding Cam and Pats mystery race car. I am not looking to compete but are there parts of the shell that benefit greatly from a few extra welds? I am not going to go nuts getting every bit of panel glue off but will do the suggested basics before painting.

    Any general suggestions while I am at this point are very welcome.
    Ash's track day 205-file.jpgAsh's track day 205-file-1.jpg
    ta
    Ash
    SilverGTi_6 and CEyssens like this.
    S3 205 GTI x 5
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    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! SilverGTi_6's Avatar
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    Default Ash's track day 205

    Congrats mate, awesome project!

    I'd prob go for a GTI6 motor, but I guess anything you'd build would need a reco these days (rather than just plonking one straight in), so a well build lightweight MI16 could be cool too.

    I'm not a fan of turbo engines generally but a 200kw 308 GTI / RCZ-R 1.6 turbo would be insane in a 205
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    The Mi16 T was too much in my book and I think I want that NA sound and power build anyway. Yes, fun project, get your popcorn out.
    SilverGTi_6 likes this.
    S3 205 GTI x 5
    2013 Fiesta ST
    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

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    For what it's worth, you're welcome to try my stage 1 GTi6 engined car when you are in Sydney some time.



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    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Thanks Rich, very generous. I suspect you have the right combination.

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    Excellent choice Ash, the car looks great. From what I understand the issues with the cage will be due to the bars in front of the b-pillar. Have you read up on the regs on the VicRoads website?

    So are you painting it green? Or some racing colours?

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    I had a reply from Rowan at CARTECH auto engineers today and he said that basically a 6 pt cage was ok but I need to have him give me a VASS certificate, necessary for a modified car to get a RWC, then use that to put it on a club plate, which may be a modified version. I think I will get stage 1 tarting up done, then consider whether to pay for a review OR go straight to an engine conversion and get it done after, which probably makes more sense. The option to drive to the track and do a few drive days is appealing.

    Car will be a very pure white, same code as my Fiesta ST.
    S3 205 GTI x 5
    2013 Fiesta ST
    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

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    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    Ash, how often are you going to be driving it? Your other option is conditional registration that allows you to drive to and from events. But the best would be to get it on historic plates.

    As for engines, just be wary of sticky tyres and oil starvation. Never had any issues with the 8v motor on slicks, but destroyed 2 XU9 motors. I now run a XU10 with a dry sump.

    8V = 90kw at the wheels with cam, headwork and TBs
    16V = 140kw solid lifters, 12:1 compression, dry sump, forged internals
    16VSC = 200kw atw.....not tested yet, but expect strengthened driveline components
    K24 - 150KW atw....Standard engine runs all day everyday
    SilverGTi_6 likes this.
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
    1985 505gti (Shitbox Rally)

    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:54 (8v)
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)

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    Ill throw my 2 cents in

    Have a CLEAR goal of what you want out of the car to start with.

    Looking at what you have I would do the following or similar.


    Spend your money and time/enjoyment on KEEPING IT RUNNING.


    Get the cage sorted.
    Get a comfortable race seat.
    Solid mount the rear beam, add 23mm torsion cars and a 24/5mm arb along with a rebuild of the beam.
    Front coilovers and top mounts to gain as much castor and camber as possible
    C5 Alloys with sticky rubber
    Refurb gearbox with 4.4 FD and BE3 ratios along with a plate Diff
    Leave the engine, buy good pads and braided hoses for the brakes
    Drive the thing and learn


    Parry did it this way I believe and we should have done something similar. Everyone is different.

    Engine conversions bring up a whole re engineering of the front of the car. Which make it faster but take an awful lot longer than you can imagine.

    Do the basics right. Set it up and have fun. When your truly bored of that thrown money at the engine. But expect it to alter everything else while you there.

    Keep it running and on the track for maximum enjoyment.
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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Ps you are a true addict. Im glad there are more than one!

    Congrats on the purchase. Its becoming a good way to enjoy these cars due to the road safety issues with using their ability on the road.

    Enjoy the process. Seriously. Just make it your priority to get it on the track and then changes things to suit your ability and the cars along the way.

    Cam

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Thanks Parry and Cam - and Cal, Lauree and Graham for that matter so far. I am learning from all you guys because you have done it in some way before and this car can benefit from all this experience.

    I am not dead set on a conversion yet and I agree about learning to drive AND THEN get more power.

    I think I will speak with the VASS engineer first and devise a plan from there. It will be a longish project that is mostly just to keep me and everyone amused. Fortunately I have a few other toys to play with while its off the road.

    Some particular questions:

    Should the cage be tagged to the pillars or not? Surely makes it more rigid?

    Should I weld in a brace between the front arms, through the fire wall and onto the tower tops?, then obviously a tower brace?

    Should I remove the seam filler and seam/stitch weld at least part of the body for rigidity? All or nothing?Ash's track day 205-exterior-original.jpgAsh's track day 205-file-1-.jpg

    Also Cam, yes I am addicted! but I have a broad interest in other cars and this purchase again is about logic. I looked into building up a mk1 Golf or an e30 bmw but neither made sense compared to the 205, which has that rare combination of rarity, classic looks, classic car value, huge fun and easy to extract performance. I realise that a civic or something may be ultimately quicker, but no passion there me I am afraid.
    S3 205 GTI x 5
    2013 Fiesta ST
    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  12. #12
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    My car has been a race car since 98. It's not seam welded apart from a few spots that have broken like the engine mount. I would just drive it and tag the cage to the body


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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Thanks Adrian, I was hoping you would chime in too.
    S3 205 GTI x 5
    2013 Fiesta ST
    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

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    If I was stating fresh like you I would dry sump any of the motors straight away. It's an expense but it makes horsepower and is the only way to get reliability. Next I would do suspensions then motor etc


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    I agree. A dry sumped iron block is the best way forward.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    I agree. A dry sumped iron block is the best way forward.
    As I understand it, the original 8v has 160ks on it and been serviced well/not thrashed. It sounds OK and puts out good power. It also has survived all its track days so far. Do you get more power in relation to crankshaft operation? I can see the safety aspect but is appreciably much more weight added?
    S3 205 GTI x 5
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    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

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    Put the 8V to one side, for safe keeping. Buy a cheap, low km 16V, such as an XU10J4R. Dry sump it, add management etc. and all the other important running gear around it. Drive it and enjoy it. Then when you're ready, drop in a stove hot XU10J4RS.
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  18. #18
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    Probably not that much more weight. Sump and oil pump would be on par with what gets taken off, just the tank and lines extra


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    1000+ Posts parry's Avatar
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    Cam has reminded me of my development journey over the last 15years of building australias fastest peugeot. I spent all my effort on handling and got down to 1.11s in a 8v. Then i through in the hot 16v but have not touched suspension since.

    You will benefit from all our development over the years. Btw my front wishbones and driveshafts will up for sale. Its will widen the track and last.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    SilverGTi_6, Isis and CEyssens like this.
    90 205 Gti Cherry Red(Track Car)
    1985 505gti (Shitbox Rally)

    PBs:

    Oran Park: 1:27:9
    Wakefield: 1:05.6 (July 2015)
    Eastern Creek: 1:54 (8v)
    Mt Huntley: 34.44 (2004 stock 205)
    Ringwood: 35.06 (30/10/2005)

  20. #20
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    It sounds to me like the exact way to get good by being a faster driver.
    First figure out how to exploit all your grip with suspension and driver improvement. Once you plateau there, then get a faster motor and watch the times fall fast.

    Quote Originally Posted by parry View Post
    Cam has reminded me of my development journey over the last 15years of building australias fastest peugeot. I spent all my effort on handling and got down to 1.11s in a 8v. Then i through in the hot 16v but have not touched suspension since.

    You will benefit from all our development over the years. Btw my front wishbones and driveshafts will up for sale. Its will widen the track and last.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    Isis likes this.
    206 GTi 180 - Cat Cams, Remapped Group N ECU, AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg fixed camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, Yokohama A050, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Powerflex Engine Mounts & Bushings, Setrab Oil cooler, Quaife diff, Velo seats.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:45.6
    Phillip Island - 1:58.4
    Nürburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parry View Post
    Cam has reminded me of my development journey over the last 15years of building australias fastest peugeot. I spent all my effort on handling and got down to 1.11s in a 8v. Then i through in the hot 16v but have not touched suspension since.

    You will benefit from all our development over the years. Btw my front wishbones and driveshafts will up for sale. Its will widen the track and last.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
    Perhaps PM me Parry to further explain these parts. I wouldn't mind some keeping everything under the standard guards somehow, even if they need to be trimmed/ rolled.
    S3 205 GTI x 5
    2013 Fiesta ST
    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  22. #22
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    Parry isn't running anything like standard guards. Part of that is probably the 8" rims though.
    206 GTi 180 - Cat Cams, Remapped Group N ECU, AST Camber Tops & Coilovers, -2deg fixed camber hubs by Frogstomp Racing, 24mm Torsion Bars, AP Racing brakes, Yokohama A050, PeugeotSport Baffled Sump, Powerflex Engine Mounts & Bushings, Setrab Oil cooler, Quaife diff, Velo seats.

    Sandown - 1:31.5
    Winton - 1:45.6
    Phillip Island - 1:58.4
    Nürburgring - 10:23.ish (Fiesta ST)

    Previously, 2x 504 Wagon, 505 Wagon, 505 STi, 405.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speaksgeek View Post
    Parry isn't running anything like standard guards. Part of that is probably the 8" rims though.
    Yes I see his guards, way out there. I hoped to get some 6.75 X 15 sl434A Speedlines, which apparently just squeeze in the standard guards. Some coilovers and top mounts would bring the camber in too.
    S3 205 GTI x 5
    2013 Fiesta ST
    2014 Audi SQ5

    Previous: 1988 205 GTI Mi16 Turbo, Mk1Golf, MkV GTI , RCS 172 x2 , 306 S16, VW Bora V6 4motion

  24. #24
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    Parry has BX driveshafts and -4mm offset 8" rims, thus track is very wide. The SL434 rims will just fit under.
    Isis likes this.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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