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Thread: Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine

  1. #76
    Tadpole Ladydauphine's Avatar
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    The brakes are fixed!!!

    What a saga.

    The cylinders were leaking from the pipe join, as we discussed earlier. Thanks all for the suggestions! After picking up the cooling pipe from Renojet, we dropped in to Super Cheap Auto (only place open on a Sunday) and got some copper washers. We fitted them Sunday afternoon, and tried again.

    No joy. the pipe to cylinder join still leaked! We pulled everything apart again, and saw the washers were quite thin. Toby went back yet again to our friends at Sydney Brake and Clutch in Alexandria and got some proper sized copper washers to try again. We also learnt the correct technique to using these copper washers; apparently you need to tighten the hose, then loosen it again, and repeat this a few times before finally tightening it. This presses the washer into the cap and seals everything up.

    Confidently, we refitted the brake parts and put the drum back on and attached the air compressor to the bleeder. I went and pumped the brake pedal, and Toby said (dejectedly) to stop.. We still had a MAJOR leak!

    The join between the pipe and cylinder was perfect, with no leaks. The cylinders were now leaking out of the seals!! What else can go wrong!?! We spent the evening looking all over for new cylinders online, but resisted buying new ones and spent a couple of days to mull over our options. Another trip to Sydney brake and clutch, dismantling the brakes for what feels like the 500th time, and we changed the wheel cylinder seals, even though the existing ones were brand new and looked perfect.

    Tonight, we rebuilt everything again and sealed it all up. We bled the brakes, and resisted putting anything fully back together until we'd completely tested it... And it was perfect!!! Success!

    So, the new wheel cylinders had defective seals, which appeared absolutely fine. On comparison to the better quality replacement seals we bought, they seemed to be made from plastic more than rubber. Despite being soft, they obviously didn't seal at all, and the brake fluid leaked out like an open tap!

    We also got the radiator and heater core back, with a brand new core in the radiator. the heater core survived surgery and was almost 3/4 blocked before cleaning!

    Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_7810.jpg

    Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_7784.jpg

    We also had the flywheel machined and the clutch pressure plate rebuilt, ready for refitting:

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    The cylinder head is all ready for refitting. We couldn't resist putting everything loosely together to admire the nearly-finished product!

    Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_7786.jpg

    Tomorrow we'll complete the final bleeding of the brakes and that'll mean we're ready to refit the wheels when they arrive back from the powdercoater (hopefully this week).

    Thanks for reading!

    Liesel

  2. #77
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    What a saga. Where did those wheel cylinders come from? I bought mine from France when I did the spider wheel Dauphine conversion on the 4CV. As I mentioned, my Argentinian hoses failed in 18 months.

    If your experience is like mine, you won't need to touch the brakes for many years, and might even have forgotten the pain by then. You may also have forgotten the little tricks....

    Hope the rest is fairly straightforward, not least the sleeve protrusion matter!
    JohnW

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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    What a saga. Where did those wheel cylinders come from?
    Hi John,

    A saga it certainly was!

    I'm not sure where they originated, but I'm suspecting Argentina. The prior owner was saying he bought a bunch of stuff from Argentina too, further adding credibility to my theory! Comparing eBay images to the cylinders we had, I'm thinking they were these ones:

    https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/362067063746

    Anyhow, there's nothing left of them but the bodies now. The cup seals are new, and the dust seals had almost completely disintegrated, so we replaced them with Aussie made PBR seals. Much better.

    There was some chat about the cooling pipe in the cylinder head earlier? The one we got from Renojet is Aluminium, and I know that Bretagne Retro Auto also sells stainless steel pipes for 25Ä:

    http://www.bretagneautoretro.fr/crbst_12.html

    Not the kind of thing we'll ever need to replace again. It's satisfying knowing that not only are you bringing the car back to life, you're also doing it in a way that's in many instances more durable than original!

    Thanks again,

    Toby


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  4. #79
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I've a vague idea my rebuild used one of those SS tubes. The real improvement is in using the right coolant I reckon!

    Not surprised re the dust seals if my hose experience was anything to go by.

    Keep up the good work!!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  5. #80
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    Well, one of the most frustrating days work I've ever had.

    I removed the gearbox end plate (front) to replace the leaking selector seal.

    Seal came out easy enough and replaced without a problem.

    I've been trying to replace the end plate/selector fork assembly for 5 hours now.

    The gears are locked and replacing the assembly sees the gear stick wobble around with huge resistance- obviously something's gone horribly wrong with the selector shafts.

    I can't understand how. Nothing moved, I managed to push in the top selector shaft, so they're not stuck.

    Worked perfectly before. Doesn't work now. Things in hundreds of pieces... I think that's called progress.

    Any ideas?




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  6. #81
    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    HURRAH!

    A huge thanks to Frank (Renojet) for your help in solving the drama, and the gearbox is all back together.

    Tip for those giving it a go: the 316 type gearbox is different from the 289 and 314 and, to reassemble the selector shaft/fork assembly, the gearbox needs to be in first gear. First gear is selected when the left hand selector pin (viewed top down standing at the back of the car) is "out" (ie. sticking out further towards the front of the car).

    Also, don't try and test the gear mechanism without tightening the cover plate. The selector shaft will "skew" and bind, meaning you can't select gears.. don't ask me how I found that out.

    Also rebuilt the carbie with a NOS rebuild kit. I cleaned the body and internals using my home made soda blasting rig (inspiration from here http://www.aircooledtech.com/tools-o.../soda_blaster/)

    Came out well!






    The wheels are all powder coated with new tyres fitted. We didn't go the michelins this time round, mainly because they weren't available quickly and cost more than twice as much as these Bridgestones.



    The colour is "shoji white satin", which looks excellent.

    So now all the seals on the gearbox are replaced and new, meaning everything should be leak free! Spent a few hours making gaskets, but happy with the results.









    A few hours closer to her triumphant return to the road!

    Thanks all,

    Toby


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  7. #82
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Yes, everything "should be" leak free

    Loving your standard of workmanship! Looks great Toby
    cheers,

    John

  8. #83
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    Default Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine

    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Yes, everything "should be" leak free

    Loving your standard of workmanship! Looks great Toby
    Thanks John!

    I find it very rewarding working on the Dauphine, and a worthwhile challenge to restore everything as sympathetically and as close as possible to original.

    It'll be an absolute treat when it's complete!

    I picked up the 'spare' engine today from Peter, the lovely gentleman we bought the car from, along with a spare early gearbox.

    The engine builder called me today to confirm we're chasing some 10 thou oversize main and big end bearings, which I managed to source through Ken Bailey (ex Caravelle Imports). I've been using Ken for over 10 years now (how time flies!) and he never fails to impress with his stock and service!

    All the machining work should be completed on the engine by the end of the week. I'm hoping for a two-week completion time- hold me to it!

    Once it's back on the road, we need to get the rear bootlid (bonnet?) re-painted, and it'll be ready to enjoy for another 56 years!

    Till tomorrow,

    Toby
    Last edited by renault12; 6th September 2017 at 07:15 AM.
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  9. #84
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    Unfortunately we suffered a loss in our family last week, which necessitated an interstate trip for the last few days.

    Today I got back into things and made a little progress.

    I got the engine back from the crankshaft machining with new bearings and a sandblasted sump and engine trays.. no point putting dirty things back on!



    I went to an auto paint supplier in Western Sydney and got a spray can matched to the original engine green. I primed everything up and started to make it all look nice and original again!



    I'm extremely happy with the results; next stop will be to start engine reassembly and then the final refit!




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  10. #85
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    Very nice. Looks like you have the double lip seal on that selector shaft too. Deep in the wording in the manuals for these gearboxes it tells you which gear to put it in before you pull the end off. If you want real fun, do it with the gearbox in situ!!!

    Driving it, you'll find it very sweet if you drive within its comfort zone. Have fun.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  11. #86
    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Thanks John!

    Yes, it's a double lip seal. I got it with a bunch of other stuff from Bretagne Retro Auto in France.

    I started engine reassembly today:




    Sorry I didn't take more photos, I was too busy enjoying myself and pouring over the repair manuals!

    Good news on the liners. All came up to about .010mm, smack-bang in the tolerance given in the manual. There is really no significant (it'd be .002mm) deviation between the liners either which I'm happy with.

    I'm going to read through the rebuild notes you provided again JohnW just to make sure I'm not missing anything, but I'm happy with how it's all going together!

    I'm also happy with the paint colour I got matched up!

    Toby


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  12. #87
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Looks good. Nice and even, unlike my last effort! What type of head gasket have you obtained? I've given up on the old copper ones as coolant leaks so much through the laminated construction. I think my last one was one of those black compound ones. You might ask Renojet what protrusion he got with the engine he built recently - I'm presuming there's only one copper shim size available these days anyway.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  13. #88
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I would skim that block. Looks like the head gasket has leaked in the past. That would of course require a check of the liner protrusion again.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  14. #89
    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Default Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Looks good. Nice and even, unlike my last effort! What type of head gasket have you obtained? I've given up on the old copper ones as coolant leaks so much through the laminated construction. I think my last one was one of those black compound ones. You might ask Renojet what protrusion he got with the engine he built recently - I'm presuming there's only one copper shim size available these days anyway.

    Cheers
    John,

    I'll ask Renojet, but I've actually got 2 gaskets here already. I was given a gasket set when I bought the car, which was for the later R4 motor, meaning not all the gaskets were correct. I bought a Dauphine set, which is all good, so now I've a spare (hope I didn't jinx myself!).

    They're both the modern compound ones, so it should be fine.

    Schlitzaugen,

    The block was checked by the builder when they did the crank machining, and they reckoned all was fine.

    It looks worse in the photos after having sat face down on the workbench (yeah, I know, should have been cleaner!), but I'm sure it'll be fine.

    Thanks all,

    Toby



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    Last edited by renault12; 6th September 2017 at 07:17 AM.
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  15. #90
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Forgot, did you mean 0.01 mm or 0.1 mm? 1 mm = 40 thou in Christian units. So a few thou protrusion gets you up to 0.1 mm or so. And that's what the photo looks like. My block is less than perfect across the top but it all seals OK as it remains in spec for protrusion. Others know far more than I do, but I reckon 0.1 mm (4 thou) is the least protrusion I'd want given my measurements of 4 thou for the indentation of the copper rings after use. I am a self-taught amateur though and claim no more.
    JohnW

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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Forgot, did you mean 0.01 mm or 0.1 mm? 1 mm = 40 thou in Christian units. So a few thou protrusion gets you up to 0.1 mm or so. And that's what the photo looks like. My block is less than perfect across the top but it all seals OK as it remains in spec for protrusion. Others know far more than I do, but I reckon 0.1 mm (4 thou) is the least protrusion I'd want given my measurements of 4 thou for the indentation of the copper rings after use. I am a self-taught amateur though and claim no more.
    G'day John!

    Thanks for mulling it over and taking the time to reply! I haven't been lazy (well, I suppose I have), I've just been in Port Macquarie for the weekend! Even the most workaholic of us need to take a break sometime.

    You're right, I meant .1mm. .01mm would almost certainly be a recipe for disaster!

    I had a solid afternoon to start reassembly proper today.

    I assembled the conrods onto the pistons, then the crankshaft, then torqued everything down. It's starting to look like an engine again!









    I used loctite 262 on everything too, the manual says to use threadlock compound, but doesn't specify the strength. I figured the stronger, the better!

    I painted up the timing cover and refitted the seals too.. looking good! Glad I took Simon's advice and took the time and expense to get the green colour correct.



    I couldn't resist balancing everything back on to see what it'll look like!



    Until tomorrow!

    Toby


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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    G'day Toby, it goes without saying that this thread is looking great. Did you happen to record the formula for the green paint, there's always someone trying to figure it out..?

    Graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12 View Post
    I couldn't resist balancing everything back on to see what it'll look like!

    I'm guessing it is yet to be done, but just pop the crank pulley in place before bolting the timing cover in place, to centralise the crank seal on the pulley. Also, just use a light coating of grease on the gaskets. It seals them nicely, and they won't stick if the cover needs to come off in the future.
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  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    G'day Toby, it goes without saying that this thread is looking great. Did you happen to record the formula for the green paint, there's always someone trying to figure it out..?

    Graham
    An honour coming from a man of your skills Graham!

    It'll be on the receipt, I'm sure.. let me have a look tomorrow.

    Toby


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  20. #95
    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I'm guessing it is yet to be done, but just pop the crank pulley in place before bolting the timing cover in place, to centralise the crank seal on the pulley. Also, just use a light coating of grease on the gaskets. It seals them nicely, and they won't stick if the cover needs to come off in the future.
    Thanks Simon! I just finished putting the timing cover on then, I'll throw some photos up tomorrow night. I used the pulley to centralize the cover and it went on a treat.

    The only thing I did differently was use Permatex number 3 (non hardening) aviation gasket cement on the cork gasket. I've had huge success on my other engine builds / general overhaul with number 3 on soft gaskets and number 4 (hardening) on paper gaskets. The non-hardening comes apart quite easily if required and seals a treat.

    I'm having a great time putting this back together! Super satisfying.. I almost don't want it to end, but then firing it up and driving it will be even better, I'm sure!

    Toby


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  21. #96
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Looks nice.... I'm looking forward to the paint recipe too!

    Have fun. Don't forget to lubricate that spigot bush....
    JohnW

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  22. #97
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    Ok.. a little more work yesterday!

    Sorry for the lack of paint code, I was too busy getting greasy. I'll have it up ASAP.

    Timing cover is now fitted, engine all timed, crank pulley and starter dog refitted along with the oil pump!







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    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Liesel, Toby .... where are you?

    Hopefully no set-backs
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    cheers,

    John

  24. #99
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    Liesel and Toby
    Wow I'm reading this tonight with Gr8 interest as I have started restoring a Dauphine with my son whom has an R10
    and will be waiting to see it at some of the FCD's
    Unfortunately our sweet lady has many more hours before she will leave the safety of the garage.
    Best of luck with the rest of the work
    Cheers Mark C.

    Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_0011.jpgLadydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_0007.jpgLadydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_0001.jpg
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  25. #100
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Good to see another Dauphine rescued! Good luck with the work - are you a member of the Renault 4CV Register of Australia? Lots of support out here.

    Regards
    JohnW

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