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Thread: Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine

  1. #51
    Tadpole Ladydauphine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    OK, that's one part, the other I just remembered. Check the gudgeon pins. On the Dauphine, they are a floating 14mm pin, on the later (1970 onwards) R4 they changed to an interference fit 16mm pin. So you will need to check to make sure the pistons will fit the rods.
    Simon,

    Thanks for the information! We did a test fit of the gudgeon pins in the conrods and they fit perfectly.. It's looking like everything should go back together just fine!

    Thanks so much for all your help and information, I really appreciate it!

    Liesel

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    HUGE thanks to Simon.. the NOS clutch friction plate arrived today!



    The generosity of Aussiefroggers knows no bounds... Thanks so much Simon!

    I also got the re-lined brake shoes back yesterday and had a chance to refit today. Good news.. the drum slid back on with absolutely no problems!




    Cheers, and thanks again Simon!

    Toby


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  3. #53
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    All good. So glad the brake drums went on OK.

    Don't forget to check the condition of the spigot bush in the flywheel before re-assembly of the clutch. I could lend you a driveshaft to centre the clutch by the way.... Just shout, and I'll post one over - give it back to me at the Muster in Inverell in 2019!

    Actually, you need that shaft to check the spigot bush - it's probably fine but don't assume anything on a 55-year old car. It should be sintered bronze, so I'd be inclined, subject to other advice on this thread of course, to fill the hole with engine oil and leave overnight, then empty it, and wipe it "dry" before reassembling the clutch. They don't usually give trouble but.... (Mine's OK after reassembly in 1970.)

    Cheers
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    JohnW

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    All good. So glad the brake drums went on OK.

    Don't forget to check the condition of the spigot bush in the flywheel before re-assembly of the clutch. I could lend you a driveshaft to centre the clutch by the way.... Just shout, and I'll post one over - give it back to me at the Muster in Inverell in 2019!
    John,

    I've actually dropped the flywheel off to be machined; I want to make sure it's all a-ok when it goes back in. I'll check the spigot bush as soon as I get it back.

    I was going to ask you about the shaft I saw you had in another thread; I'll need it when I reassemble the engine/transaxle combo anyway. I'll send you a PM.. you'll have it back long before the muster in Inverell!

    Thanks,

    Toby






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  5. #55
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    No rush, I have more than one of them!!

    PM me an address and I'll dig a shaft out for you!
    JohnW

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    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
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  6. #56
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    It feels like we only made a little bit of progress today, but at least we're a little bit closer to having her back on the road.

    Toby had a day off, and reassembled all the brakes and got the final rear drum back on after cleaning it all up. Looks great!



    The handbrake cables had rusted seized on the passenger side, which meant the handbrake was half on and the drum wouldn't go back together. He figures it out pretty quickly though, soaked the cable in oil and freed it up before adjusting the handbrake. Both rear wheel bearings got re-greased and everything was put back together.

    One of the clips which holds the flexible brake hose on the rear drivers side was missing, so we bought a new one and fitted it:



    I cleaned the brake fluid bottle and polished the cap when I got home from work and fitted the new rubber grommet at the outlet. Came up amazingly well. I polished the bottle with soapy water and steel wool in case anyone's interested!



    The bracket which holds the bottle was all rusty too, so we cleaned it up with the wire brush on the bench grinder, repainted it and refitted the bottle.

    We bled the brakes and, for the first time in over 10 years, she can stop herself! Success!!

    So, to re-commission the brake system, we had to replace and repair:

    - All new flexible brake hoses
    - Rebuilt master cylinder
    - All new wheel cylinders
    - Relined rear brake shoes (front had already been relined but never used)
    - New brake fluid reservoir grommet
    - Brake hose clip on drivers side rear wheel
    - New brake fluid
    - Adjusted handbrake and freed handbrake cable

    The engine has been dropped off at KVK engine reconditioning in Western Sydney to have the crankshaft machined and everything balanced.

    We dropped the wheels off at The Powder Principle in Marrickville to be sandblasted and powdercoated too which should take a couple of weeks. I chose Shoji white, a satin white. Should look good and very close (from what I've seen) to the original colour.

    The radiator place called today, the radiator has been re-cored and the heater core rebuilt and cleaned. We'll pick it up next week and it'll be ready once the engine is finished!

    Until the next update, and thanks for reading,

    Liesel







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  7. #57
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    You can also check the flywheel bush by using two twist drill bits. Those are precision ground. Just buy one the diameter of the spigot and one a bit oversize (imperial/metric combinations should yield a very tight tolerance). One should go in, the other shouldn't.
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  8. #58
    Tadpole Ladydauphine's Avatar
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    Today we went and picked up the cooling tube from Renojet- thanks very much!

    We also managed to score manual P.R 650, Catalogue de pieces de rechange. This manual was the only one I was missing from the collection of original Renault workshop manuals, and is very useful for working out how everything goes together!

    We also discovered a tragedy on arriving home.. 4 pools of brake fluid under the car at each brake drum!

    After about 5 hours of sleuthing, disassembling and reassembling, we worked out what the problem was...!

    The old wheel cylinder:
    Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_6185.jpg

    The new wheel cylinder:

    Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine-img_6184.jpg

    The photos were the best I could get, but it turns out that where the old wheel cylinders had a flat 'seat' for the brake hose to screw into (with a copper washer), the new ones have a 'chamfered' seat. The brake hoses won't seal properly, even with copper washers, and fluid leaks out of all four where the brake hose screws in.

    So I need 4 new wheel cylinders. According to our measurements, and the workshop manual, we need 22mm front cylinders and 19mm rear cylinders.

    Can anyone help...?!?

    1 step forward, 2 steps back!

    Thanks,

    Liesel
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  9. #59
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    Can the "original" wheel cylinders be stainless steel re-sleeved to suit? I'm thinking another alternative is to have a set of flexible brake hoses made to suit the "new" wheel cylinders, though I'd prefer to have the originals re-sleeved to have a corrosion proof cylinder.

    Just check the condition of the original wheel cylinder pistons, as there would be no point having the cylinders re-sleeved if the pistons are in poor condition - or are the pistons in the new cylinders of EXACT same size and shape, and therefore interchange into the re-sleeved originals?

    Either way, I'm sure a good brake place will be able to assist in using the parts you have at hand.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Can the "original" wheel cylinders be stainless steel re-sleeved to suit? .
    Simon,

    This was my preferred option. Unfortunately, the original cylinders didn't come with the car, only the "new" incorrect ones. So sadly that's not an option...

  11. #61
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    Hmm. What a bugger.

    When I fitted Dauphine brakes to my 4CV (huge improvement) I took the new wheel cylinders that I bought from France to the local brake place and they made up hoses for me with end fittings to suit the slave cylinders. So my hoses have the old fittings at the inner end and the new fittings at the wheel cylinders. About $50 per hose and worth every cent. Everything sealed first time, I'm pleased to relate. I'm presuming all the leakage was outside so the linings aren't contaminated? If so, perhaps just dismantle one front wheel to get the cylinder sitting on the counter, and go from there. These cars all have imperial threads for the brake hydraulics (Lockheed) so the local brake places have a big range of fittings.
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    JohnW

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    Try power brakes in Adelaide, they do a postal service. The recently helped me with the rear brakes on my traction. Also be careful that the handbrake cable doesn't seize on in the future. I had this issue with my traction and ended up having to replace the cable. No amount of oil, wd40 etc would keep it free.
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  13. #63
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    Hmmmmm.. I think new hoses may be the best bet.

    As soon as we realized they were leaking, Liesel insisted we pull the drums off straight away to save the linings- so thankfully they're ok. The other pro with leaking from the hose union is that the majority of fluid just ran cleanly down the backing plate and out the bottom.

    As soon as we have a chance, we'll dismantle everything again :-( and take it to a brake place (or maybe even a pirtek?) and have them make up some new hoses. Then the braking system will finally be fixed..!

    Good to know it's all imperial fittings John, not something I'd have thought of! In fact, looking online, I assumed the majority of the wheel cylinders were incorrect as they were listed as having imperial threads!

    Radiator and heater cores are finished and ready to be collected. It'll be Friday before we have a chance to grab them, but at least we're getting things back instead of sending yet more away.

    Thanks for the help,

    Toby




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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnSafari View Post
    also be careful that the handbrake cable doesn't seize on in the future. I had this issue with my traction and ended up having to replace the cable. No amount of oil, wd40 etc would keep it free.
    Thanks for the advice.

    I've never come across this before. Did you end up having to replace the cable?


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  15. #65
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    I don't think you should need to dismantle much at all. Just one wheel cylinder and two hoses (front and rear) as samples and off to Adelaide. OnSafari isn't the only one to praise Power Brakes..... And they've been around for decades, what's more.

    Handbrake cables can seize of course but it has never happened to me. Start with a new one and use the car......

    Good luck with what should be a minor glitch.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12 View Post
    Thanks for the advice.

    I've never come across this before. Did you end up having to replace the cable?


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    Yes, the left side would not release the shoes when you released the handbrake lever. So I decided to replace the whole cable assembly, and I did both sides while inwas at it.
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  17. #67
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    John's suggestion with proper tapered fittings is a good idea, but I would try something else first.

    Get some crush copper washers (the round cross section ones) that fit close around the OD of the hose end fitting so they go inside the taper in the wheel cylinder. That'll fix your problem.
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    John's suggestion with proper tapered fittings is a good idea, but I would try something else first.

    Get some crush copper washers (the round cross section ones) that fit close around the OD of the hose end fitting so they go inside the taper in the wheel cylinder. That'll fix your problem.
    Good idea. All you really need is enough annealed copper thickness for the end of the hose to tighten against the copper instead of against the bottom of the female thread on the slave cylinder, it seems to me.
    JohnW

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  19. #69
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    I think long term that is a better solution as well because tapered fittings are no longer used (I haven't seen them on any of my cars) and you might have to have the hoses custom made every time you change them.

    Plus steel on steel means all sorts of problems and eventually the sealing surfaces get damaged and don't seal anymore. Copper won't hurt anything.

    If I had this problem, I would first try to make my own copper washers from some thick electrical cable and solder the ends. It may not work, but I would take a punt it will because tightening the fitting will push the washer down in the tapered section where the gap will be crushed not pulled apart, so the ends of the ring will push against each other rather that spread out.

    That, and I am a tight arse and if I can find a solution that cost zilch, I would totally take it. Either way, interesting experiment.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  20. #70
    Tadpole Ladydauphine's Avatar
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    Default Ladydauphine's FIRST 1961 Renault Dauphine

    Thanks all for the suggestions! We're going to try out a couple of them when we get some more time to spend a solid few hours in the garage.

    This afternoon we changed the tube in the cylinder head with the one we collected from Renojet- thanks again Frank!

    The old one was well and truly past its best.

    We had to heat up the cylinder head with the heat gun on the end the tube was still held (and not completely rusted away) and then tap it out with a socket of the right size. A few minutes and we had some progress:



    Not much left once we had it removed!



    So, success on that front! A new backing plate for the water pump arrived which fits perfectly, so we're completely ready to start refitting the cylinder head once we get the rest of the engine back!

    Until tomorrow,

    Liesel




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  21. #71
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    Good work with the tube - really happy that you got it out. The old one is better than some I've seen - it even came out in one piece!! Note the two holes close together at one end...... I think you peen it out a bit at the ends to hold the new one in place.

    Good luck with the brake connections.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  22. #72
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    Oddly, the replacement of the tube isn't covered in the various Dauphine manuals, even the later MR93 combi manual. But it is covered in the R4 manual, obviously the Dauphines were maintained better.......
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Oddly, the replacement of the tube isn't covered in the various Dauphine manuals, even the later MR93 combi manual. But it is covered in the R4 manual, obviously the Dauphines were maintained better.......
    Yeah, I thought that was quite strange actually- I couldn't find any reference in any of our manuals. Thanks for the extract, I'll be sure to peen the ends of the new tube tomorrow.

    "Removing it can sometimes be a delicate operation". Certainly true, of was a delicate task, especially when it broke up inside the head and had to be pulled out piece by piece using long nose pliers and a screwdriver!


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  24. #74
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Weird thing that tube. Typical french engineering quirkiness, I guess.

    Isn't it possible to install a permanent fix? Say an aluminium tube ?
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  25. #75
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    Funny, it being in the R4 manual, given that the R4s ran coolant, did they not? All Dauphines and 4CVs in Oz are likely to have been on tap water for some of their lives. The new tubes are aluminium I think from memory, but the suppliers in France don't specify (Web Pieces Retro, Ichard for example).

    The one I had done a few years back was fully blocked with calcium carbonate deposits and the water flow was all out of the one or two holes at the water pump end - no sludge in the block for cylinders 1 and 2 and huge amounts in 3 and 4.

    Presumably all of us run anti-corrosion fluid of some sort these days.

    PM me your email address and I'll send a write up of some of this stuff from Fourword.
    Last edited by JohnW; 11th August 2017 at 03:25 AM.
    JohnW

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    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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