Phil's HOS 205 GTI6 budget build.
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Thread: Phil's HOS 205 GTI6 budget build.

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    PDJ
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    Default Phil's HOS 205 GTI6 budget build.

    Yep, another 306 goes to the scrapper whilst its heart lives on in a 205.

    This is going to be a budget build as it's a project that I wasn't planning on tackling any time soon.

    I got the S3 way back in late 2011 (the Rego label says it expired in Feb 2012) as it was for sale at a "too good to miss" price and was less than a kilometre away from where I was living at the time.
    I bought it from a fellow frogger with a stuffed master cylinder and some bits of trim missing, rear seatbelt missing, a stuffed dash, you know the score.
    It then got sent off to live in a barn over at a friends place where it stayed for the next 5 years
    Then, early this year, I received the eviction notice, bugger.
    Whilst it was there the rats got into it a bit. They ate through the injector wiring, spark plug leads and a few other wires I'm sure. Luckily they didn't get into the cab.
    When I went to pick it up, I opened the bonnet and a little face popped out of the airbox (I'd removed the induction and flow meter to save it) and went scampering off.
    So, knowing that the wiring was stuffed and needed replacement I followed my man logic and bought a complete GTI6 (which was recently for sale on here) which had a couple of weeks Rego left. This meant I could fang it around for a couple of weeks and make sure all was good. All was good  and it went really well. A twin cam at high rpm makes a great noise.
    So that's the engine and management wiring sorted.
    Luckily, last year I finally finished wrecking an Si I'd bought 4 years ago which had a really good dash in it.
    So that's the dash and missing trim sorted.
    And about 8 years ago (not long after I arrived in Australia) I bought a really good, complete, late model half leather interior.
    So that's the interior sorted.

    Now, we come to the sticky bit. All of this has come along a project or two too soon.
    I already have a good (enough) S3 GTI to have some 205 fun in. Unfortunately it's got a sunroof. So the idea was to eventually give the rough one (no sunroof) a full resto using all the nice bits listed above.
    I've recently bought a mini (funnily enough from Ash on here) which has taken some funds to get roadworthy. Then the next project was going to be my MK1 Escort which is just a rolling shell at the moment.
    I should really sell the sunroof car to help fund the 6 build but I really can't bring myself to be without a 205 for a long period again (the sunroof car spent 4 years in the same barn).

    So, the plan now is a get it running and presentable 205 GTI6.

    Gti engine out
    get the engine bay sprayed.
    Drop the complete 6 engine in, including the 6 speed as I know everything works well.
    Fit the GTI6 brakes (I know they aren't ideal) but I've got them.
    The 6 also has coilovers a Remus exhaust with a high flow cat.
    Fit a larger 306 master cylinder.

    I was also gobsmacked that the A/C in the 6 still worked so I'd love to keep it.

    Other things to consider would be around the gearbox.
    I have the box out of the Si. I'd just need to get a 1st from an Mi16 box and have it fitted.
    I could also use the S3 box.
    i did enjoy the 6 speed when driving the 306 though.
    Changing the box would involve time, parts but more importantly $$$.
    I don't want to be doing 3 point turns to get through Galston Gorge when going for a blast though.
    The other thing too is that I should do it properly whilst the engine is out. So a new clutch, cam belt, water pump and most importantly a quafe would be the logical thing to do. And if the engine bay has also been painted there is no reason that the engine would need to come out again. But then I'm starting to spend $$$ again.

    At the moment the 205 is as I picked it up and the 306 is still running but out of Rego. So nothing has been started yet.
    I'm located on the Central Coast, NSW.
    306 bits will be available once I get cracking.
    Advice, parts, leads, strategies, help filled garage days,etc, are all welcomed.
    I'm sure I'll be seeing Hue and Peter at some point too.

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    Here are some pic (hope they work)

    http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...psft2naqke.jpg
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    http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...psmt1ujgqu.jpg
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    Great project mate. Look forward to hearing the updates.

    The 306 is still a beautiful car too.
    Lotus Elise Sport 111
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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Good plan!

    I would make a fresh gearbox up while you fit an LsD. Speak with AdrianW about the options. Its not as expensive as it sounds and really makes a difference to how the car drives.

    You will need a Non ABS 406 MC for the brakes. I think Dapco stocks them.

    Spend the time fitting new spade connectors to the 6 wiring harness and use the 205 multiplug (from the loom you remove) to make it a nice connection. Then you can just plug it in no splicing required. Just match up the numbers required.

    Work out how you will get around the MC clearence BEFORE final fitment. Will save you ALOT of work. Theres a few ways to do it properly

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    There's nothing wrong with GTi6 brakes. I use them on my race car. You have lots of gearbox options, including using 6spd bits in a 5 spd box. I'd take all the boxes to Adrian and ask for a custom.

    eg
    1st & 2nd from the S3 1.9L GTi
    3rd, 4th & 5th from the GTi6
    3.94:1 cwp from an early GTi

    Maybe even put 1-5 from the GTi6 into a 5spd case?
    Last edited by PeterT; 9th April 2017 at 05:37 PM.

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Use the GTi6 coilovers on the 205.
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    [QUOTE=PeterT;I'd take all the boxes to Adrian and ask for a custom.

    [/QUOTE]

    Strongly second this, costs are very reasonable and he knows his stuff.
    87 S1 205 GTI / GTI6 powered a project underway

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    1000+ Posts Isis's Avatar
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    Cool project Phil. I think we would be interested to follow the 850 progress too.
    Ash

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    PDJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isis View Post
    Cool project Phil. I think we would be interested to follow the 850 progress too.
    Ash
    Been waiting for minispares to get new wheels back in stock since Feb ��
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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterT View Post
    There's nothing wrong with GTi6 brakes. I use them on my race car. You have lots of gearbox options, including using 6spd bits in a 5 spd box. I'd take all the boxes to Adrian and ask for a custom.

    eg
    1st & 2nd from the S3 1.9L GTi
    3rd, 4th & 5th from the GTi6
    3.94:1 cwp from an early GTi

    Maybe even put 1-5 from the GTi6 into a 5spd case?

    I would normally agree here Pete. Only having driven a 'road car' back to back with Gti6 calipers verses say a 266mm setup is diferenciating. Especially the ride quality. At the end of the day though there are many other things you can do first. Plus! You have them already and they definitly work well! Splitting hairs!?

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    PDJ
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    Yep, with the brakes I know the 6 ones will work well but am fully aware of the addition unsprung weight. As you said Cam, it's a case of use what I've got to keep the costs down.
    What cars can I raid for the 266mm set up and what will I need?
    standard 307? 206 GTI? S16? (I'm pretty sure there are no S16s left)

    Are there any 306 vultures? With so many 306s getting wrecked for 205s there is an abundance of parts out there.
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    Nope any normal 306 will have 266 rotors and calipers to suite S3 hubs or 206 I believe. The 306 is dime a dozen and cheap.
    87 S1 205 GTI / GTI6 powered a project underway

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    I just did a return trip to Armidale last weekend in my 205, 1020km. I was not letting the grass grow under my wheels. Did not find the standard brakes lacking once!
    Present fleet:-
    Peugeot 93' 205 Gti 16v
    Peugeot 73' 504 Ti from new
    Peugeot 08' 407 Hdi Coupe from new

    Previous fleet:-
    Peugeot 95' 605 Sv
    Peugeot 92' 205 Gti
    Renault 72' 16TS from new
    Renault 69' 10
    Renault 71' 10s
    Renault 68' 10 from new

    "Be reasonable do it my way!"


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    Are the gti6 calipers and rotors a direct swap on a standard 306? If so, I would be interested to talk about a swap if you like... my XSI has 266 rotors and calipers and I'd be interested in upgrading to gti6 brakes.




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    They should be same hubs etc,
    87 S1 205 GTI / GTI6 powered a project underway

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    Haha. I'll swap my XSi brakes too. And I'm closer.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    PDJ
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    A brake swap might not be a bad option.
    Any recommendations on an Engineer?
    If they don't insist on uprated brakes then a set of good pads all round will do me.
    WD-40'll fix It! If it don't, use a big hammer

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    The 306 XSi is a lot heavier than a 205 so its front brakes will do the job nicely and a more than suitable. (Elec Eng) but its simple weight comparison thing.
    87 S1 205 GTI / GTI6 powered a project underway

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    PDJ
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    I've got the Mrs and the young fella going to the UK soon so I get 3 weeks to get cracking.
    Realistically I'd be happy with getting the 306 stripped and off to the scrapper in that time.
    Ive got an engine hoist but are there any specialist tools I'll need?
    Whats the best way to drop the engine? Out the top or drop the engine with subframe and wheels attached?
    Do I need to take the dash out to get the required wiring or is everything I need in the engine bay?

    All hints tips and volunteers are greatly welcomed. ��
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    PDJ
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    Phil's HOS 205 GTI6 budget build.-img_3885.jpg

    A bit bit later than planned but at least I'm moving in the right direction.

    I've got a quaife and a new clutch to go into a VTS box. Cam belt and water pump and possibly a new head gasket replacement whilst the engine is out as some preventive maintenance.

    Now, the biggest decision is.....
    1. Do I drop the engine in once those those things are done
    2. Change the inlet cam and run the standard ecu.
    3. Change both cams, new pistons (hopefully with just a hone) and after market management.

    It's a case of do it once do it right or get it going with a plan on upgrading it down the track.
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    I'm not trying to be a wet blanket in saying this, just sharing some information.

    Any aftermarket ECU worth using on a 6 motor costs $1900 on its own, new. Once you add in loom, sensors and materials it's about $3500 with all new parts and that's not including the wire-in labour or tune.

    The GTi6 motor uses pressed in gudgeon pins, as opposed to floating. There are no aftermarket piston suppliers that make a piston as a direct fit to the GTi6 rod. That means you have to buy pistons and rods to rebore an RS block. None of the aftermarket pistons have low enough compression to be run with streetable camshafts therefore the only option is a set of custom pistons at a cost of $2000 landed. Add in a set of cheap h-beam rods, a bore & hone and the cost is $3000.
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    PDJ
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    That's good enough for me then.
    Option 1 or 2 it is then.
    The other option is the pug1off 200bhp kit. I'm a bit sceptical and the upgrades they list seem to be a bit optimistic. A new exhaust manifold, ecu chip, and a polished throttle body for 200bhp?


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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDJ View Post
    The other option is the pug1off 200bhp kit. I'm a bit sceptical and the upgrades they list seem to be a bit optimistic. A new exhaust manifold, ecu chip, and a polished throttle body for 200bhp?
    Actually, I think you should consider the Pug1Off kit.

    The power increase from the Pug1Off kit will come mostly from the cam change (CatCam 106's, which you don't mention above) and the remapped ECU to suit. My understanding is that the benefits from the different exhaust and the modified throttle body are marginal, so I don't know that you'd bother with them.

    As I understand it, the power increase you get from a hotter cam with no remap will be limited. To change the fuel and ignition maps to take full advantage of a longer duration cam you would normally need an aftermarket ECU. Huw has outlined above some of what this involves. I think he has actually understated the trouble and costs that an aftermarket ECU entails.

    When we installed a Haltech ECU for my GTI6 conversion (Haltech Platinum Sport 1000), not only did all the engine wiring all have to be redone, we then couldn't get the Haletch ECU to work with the Peugeot idle stepper motor. I had to buy a Haltech stepper and pay Huw to build adaptors to install this. Huw then still couldn't get my car my car to start reliably or idle when it was cold. The car needed several visits to a tuner (at additional cost each time) and further modifications to get it to run properly when cold. The rest of the tune also took time and cost to get right.

    I am now very happy with my car, but it was an ordeal and cost lots to get it to work.

    It seems to me that the Pug1Off option offers an option for a hotter cam matched to a remapped ECU that should get most of the benefit out of the cam without the cost and considerable pain of setting up an aftermarket ECU. If I were to do my car again, it is the way I would go. You don't have to rewire the whole engine, you don't have to pay thousands to get the tuning sorted out, and because you are keeping the original ECU and cold running maps, it should idle and start when cold from out of the box. It seems to me the whole thing has the potential for 80% of the benefit for 20% of the pain and cost that goes with installing and setting up an aftermarket ECU properly.

    You could also get more power from increasing the compression without new pistons by instead just using a thinner Cometic head gasket (I happen to have one here spare, seeing as how I ended up going down the path of custom pistons instead - another thing I would definitely not do again!). If you were to increase compression this way you may also need to get someone like Huw to pocket the standard pistons, but that is much less cost and trouble than custom pistons and rods.

    Of course, if you went with the Pug1Off remapped ECU instead of a full aftermarket ECU installation, you would have no way to adjust the tune for the increased compression ratio. In that case I don't know whether you would still get the full benefit from the increase in compression. I would be interested to hear views from Peter T or others on that.
    Last edited by Richard W; 21st January 2018 at 11:15 PM.

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    PDJ
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    Thanks Richard.
    I knew I'd left something off the Pug1off kit (the most important part). I think with all the reading I've been doing I've got a bit confused with if you change the cams (particularly the exhaust) you need to run an aftermarket ECU.
    With you reminding me about the cams and being able to "chip" the standard ECU I'll now be sending an email to Pug1off. ��
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    +1 for any info/experience on the pug1off cams and re map...watching with interest!!!

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    Just out of interest, what do you have left of the GTi6? Seats? Door cards? Parcel shelf etc... The exhaust?

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