R12 Motor Transplant for R10 ?
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  1. #1
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    Default R12 Motor Transplant for R10 ?

    G'day All,
    The 16TS is coming along nicely but will need to be trailered to Boonah for the R16 Workshop on 7th March - really looking forward to that!
    Meanwhile, I have been staring at the motor that is in my R10 and thinking that an R12 motor might be a better option than trying to get this one working properly.
    Would appreciate any advice on that concept, also any info about prices/availability (I am in S E Qld).
    Cheers,
    BP
    PS noticed a rusty 16 in the little wrecking yard in Yamanto, near the Aluminium Warehouse - will try to have a look asap.

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Transplanting a 1289 or 1397 motor out of an R12/Virage into an R10 is quite achievable and relatively straight forward.
    Before you start, you need to work out what clutch and bellhousing you currently have on your R10, and what input shaft in the gearbox as some or all of these will need to be changed - some of that you may only be able to tell once the engine and gearbox is separated.

    Water pump and heater hoses will need to be altered as the R10 and 12 use slightly different outlets on the pump and housing. You may have to change from a dynamo to an alternator and change the location of the alternator to where it is on the R12 (with associated wiring changes). I seem to recall the bracing from gearbox to engine has to use the 12 stuff not the 10 plates (I think), and lastly work out what you do for carbies and exhaust.

    I used to use the R12 water pump backing plate with an R10 pump; alternator up where R12 goes and run the heater hoses (shielded) up over the top of the alternator, creating a sleeve joint on each hose down near the engine. I use the r12 exhaust manifold with a custom mandrel bent exhaust. I cut the inlet part off with a hacksaw so I could run a side draft Weber, removed the heat shield so you can fabricate a plate bolted on so the R10 accelerator cable mechanism works in much the same way as std.

    You will need the later bellhousing, clutch to suit the flywheel your engine uses and may need to upgrade the input shaft unless it matches the clutch you need (number of splines on shaft). If you have to change bellhousing, you may also need to change the clutch fork too so grab that as a package.

    That's all I can think of for now. Others may confirm, deny, add extra.
    KB


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    Yep, that's about the long and short of it all, it's all doable if you can find all the bits required..

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    Time to look at conversion to electric?

    Would have better weight distribution with batteries in front

    Convert Your Car to Electric: A How to Guide - CarsDirect

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Time to look at conversion to electric?

    Would have better weight distribution with batteries in front

    Convert Your Car to Electric: A How to Guide - CarsDirect
    A Resla ? or Tesault ?
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    Adding to renault8&10 accurate comments: it was a common conversion back in the 1970s and 1980s when the parts were common, and if you are linked up with the Q'ld Renault Car Club folk I imagine you'd find the bits.

    Equally, the standard 1100 engine isn't at all bad, not hard to fix and the car very usable with the standard engine. You might find any R12 engine you find needs fixing anyway.

    Have fun.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Time to look at conversion to electric? Would have better weight distribution with batteries in front Convert Your Car to Electric: A How to Guide - CarsDirect
    Well yes, but if you add a lot of extra weight at one end you will assuredly change the weight distribution.... The R10 certainly has the boot volume!! It's not a bad candidate car, is it?
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    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Having passed a new Holden HR X2 (slowly) leaving Seymour and indicating 100 mph on my speedo in the almost new R10 round headlight, two-up, (assisted by a tailwind) watching great spurts of brown stuff emanating from the twin carb Holden's exhaust as I passed, I figured I was pretty happy with the performance of the Swiss Watch-like and very bog standard 1108 Renault motor. In comparison, the R12 engine is like a hammer drill.....rough and ready.....
    It's another lovely day! Again!

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    The 1289 is probably the pick. Sweeter revving, enough torque and arguably similar power to its "bigger brother"
    Don't bother with twin webers. Even a 10S downdraft carbie and manifold would do if you can find one, rather than a DCOE Weber or Dellorto. Port the head, add a mild cam and enjoy.

    A very worthwhile upgrade in driveability even in std form over the 1108.
    KB


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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    The 1289 is probably the pick. Sweeter revving, enough torque and arguably similar power to its "bigger brother" Don't bother with twin webers. Even a 10S downdraft carbie and manifold would do if you can find one, rather than a DCOE Weber or Dellorto. Port the head, add a mild cam and enjoy. A very worthwhile upgrade in driveability even in std form over the 1108.
    If you do the change, I agree with this. The 1.4 is a dull motor, judging by our two Virages. Reliable, perhaps a bit more power but just dull.
    JohnW

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    I prefer the 1.4 in my R10 Alconi because of the torque around 3500 to 4000. The R8G is stronger over 5000 rpm which is OK on the track but most road use is around 4000 so the 1.4 R10 is better to cruise around in. In 3rd to 4th gear, acceleration is almost on a par with the R8G from 90 to 110 kph. My 1.4 has a single 45 DCOE side draft, mild cam and headers. It is not a lazy combination in an R10 Shell.

    I have a spare engine that I am about to rebuild with more compression and a bigger cam but otherwise the same specs.
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    I reckon you should take that out to 1600cc!
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    KB


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    I have thought about that. It is not too hard to do, but if I did that, I would also like to run an alloy cross flow head. The problem is that they are a little hard to come by for a 1.4 unless you are prepared to spend some serious money. I could then run two 45's like you have.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post

    [...]

    I use the r12 exhaust manifold with a custom mandrel bent exhaust.

    [...]
    From foggy memory, my 1289 engined R10 used its original exhaust manifold. Is there any reason why this is not possible and/or desirable?

    Seem to remember the inlet and exhaust manifolds are a two piece affair on both engines, so would guess mix and match possible?
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    I have heard so much info on both motors in these cars the cast iron sierra vs a aluminum 807 style motors ??? The questions about weight differences comes up but does any one actually have actual weights for these motors and is there a significant difference ?

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yes, there is but not 1:2.

    Then again, the power of the 807 in stock trim is about 100Hp whereas the Sierra in its best trim is about 54Hp, so I would say it is totally worth the trouble.

    This may be a concern on rear engined cars but I think moving the fuel tank and radiator upfront would totally offset the weight penalty.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 23rd February 2017 at 01:52 AM.
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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Re the exhaust question. You probably could use the std exhaust, inlet and manifold but it would be a compromise. The std exhaust isn't the best design power wise. The two R12 heads go back to an 8 port design I believe where as parts available these days are more likely to be R10 which the op has. Hence the R10S suggestion if one can be found. Still uses the standard exhaust setup.

    Colliers used to maintain the R12 manifold gave just as much power with less noise over bespoke headers (lynx etc). The R12 manifold does bring the exhaust back towards the radiator panel so the exhaust is usually a convoluted switch back type system running the muffler back alongside the engine, or across the back of the rear of the car like Frans, Ross etc.

    Having the mandrel bent component made, then bolting on a readily available sports muffler was relatively cheap, available and gave good results (and a nice understated sound). That's why I did it.
    KB


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    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by driven View Post
    Time to look at conversion to electric?

    Would have better weight distribution with batteries in front

    Convert Your Car to Electric: A How to Guide - CarsDirect
    Wow, this has got to be the skinniest "How to Guide" I've every come across.
    CarsDirect are very economical with the details (probably don't want to confuse the readers with too much detail).

    To summarise:
    Take out the petrol motor.
    Put in the electric motor, batteries, vacuum pump, and controller, don't stuff it up.
    Finished.

    Dur, this is on a par with Monty Pythons how to do it sketch:

    How to rid the world of all known diseases. Well, first of all become a doctor and discover a marvelous cure for something, and then, when the medical world really starts to take notice of you, you can jolly well tell them what to do and make sure they get everything right so there'll never be diseases any more.

    Now, how to play the flute. Well you blow in one end and move your fingers up and down the outside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    The 1289 is probably the pick. Sweeter revving, enough torque and arguably similar power to its "bigger brother"
    Don't bother with twin webers. Even a 10S downdraft carbie and manifold would do if you can find one, rather than a DCOE Weber or Dellorto. Port the head, add a mild cam and enjoy.

    A very worthwhile upgrade in driveability even in std form over the 1108.
    I did the 1100 to 1289 conversion to my R8 some 6 years ago and it was a noticeable improvement. Just need to match up the clutch and thrust bearing to suit the later R10 gearbox and spline. The 1100 manifold bolts straight on too. Of course you will need to fit a R8/10 water pump as the R12 is different. Again use a new one as they are relatively cheap and available.
    But I upgraded from single to twin down throat carb (32 DCOE) from a 10S and went even better.
    If you can source some Sonic extractors, you will be even happier!
    My hillclimb times dropped by over 10 secs on Mt Tarrangower, and I could even achieve a wheel spin!
    You will extremely happy with the upgrade and can be achieved relatively easily, but if using a second-hand engine (which I did) it might be wise to replace the seals as once its all in, you don't want to pull it apart again because of an oil leak.
    good luck
    Angelo
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    The down draught Weber from a 10S would be a 32DIR, but a 28/36DCD (ex Cortina gt) or a 36DCD7 would be even better as these have changeable choke tubes which give a greater rang of tuning options. The R12 water pump can remain if you keep the alternator in the normal R12 position.
    Although the 1100 revs more freely, the lower end torque of the 1289 makes the car much nicer to drive, i.e. less gear changing.

    Henry
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    not sure what's going on here with replies - I got the first reply from KB (R8&10) but no others - I just decided to have a peek at the thread and am amazed at the replies - thanks to All!
    not sure what's going on with my 10 either - I'll head down to the batcave and write down all the numbers - it's got 10S instruments and a 32 Weber carb but I don't think it's a 10S...
    Will post those numbers in a bit...
    PS
    the only idea missing from the engine swap concepts put forward is a mid-engine 16TS layout - wotcha think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by boleropilot View Post
    not sure what's going on here with replies - I got the first reply from KB (R8&10) but no others - I just decided to have a peek at the thread and am amazed at the replies - thanks to All!
    not sure what's going on with my 10 either - I'll head down to the batcave and write down all the numbers - it's got 10S instruments and a 32 Weber carb but I don't think it's a 10S...
    Will post those numbers in a bit...
    PS
    the only idea missing from the engine swap concepts put forward is a mid-engine 16TS layout - wotcha think?
    Plenty of Franken-10S cars around, using bits from write-offs back in the day.

    There was a mid-engine 4CV hillclimb car in SA 30+ years ago, using a supercharged 16TS motor. Simon may know what happened to it. Great idea. Fairly serious effort required! Might be easier to find a nice Matra Jet and keep the R10 as an ....... R10!
    JohnW

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    ok - here 'tis:
    plates under bonnet - Oval plate - cut-out numbers R1190 and 421 19S and it also has a stamped number 800
    - diamond plate - stamped R1190 and cut-out numbers 6698541
    plate on motor - stamped 68802 cut-out numbers 673422 and a little star

    sorry about previous post - carburettor is Solex - got mixed up with the 16...doh

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    hey John - I'm more inclined to get the 16TS and the 10 looking lovely and then selling them both to finance a perfect little French Blue 4CV - hopefully a 1950 model - just like moi !
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    Quote Originally Posted by boleropilot View Post
    ok - here 'tis:
    plates under bonnet - Oval plate - cut-out numbers R1190 and 421 19S and it also has a stamped number 800
    - diamond plate - stamped R1190 and cut-out numbers 6698541
    plate on motor - stamped 68802 cut-out numbers 673422 and a little star

    sorry about previous post - carburettor is Solex - got mixed up with the 16...doh
    Simon will know.....
    JohnW

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    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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