Peugeot 205 GTi Road? / Track? car
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  1. #1
    Member slash.dot.dash's Avatar
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    Default Peugeot 205 GTi Road? / Track? car

    Ok so I am about to start on the restoration of my 1989 Peugeot 205 GTi. First things first I have prepared my space that will be my home away from home for the next ????? years.
    Originally it was the space where everything was crammed for storage but now after more than 6 months it is actually a workshop with room for a car. Shelving all around and room to move around the car. I have unistrut hanging from the ceiling to shove bonnets, seats parcel trays all the big items (as soon as I clear my timber away).
    This is going to be a bare metal full restoration. Tear everything down and rebuild it. I havenít done this sort of thing for about 30 years. Back then it was Mk I & Mk II Cortinas. But since then I have a French love. My every other daily drive is a 1990 205 GTI. It came from Brisbane and was built as a track car. The engine is rubbish and I donít know what has been done to it but the suspension is fantastic. The plan was to restore this one as a road car but the body work has a few dings. Iím good with mechanical but not so much with panel work so I sourced myself a beautifully straight silver 1989 car.
    After driving my current car, however, I am thinking I would like to get involved in some sort of motorsport with it.
    What sort of options are available for the Peugeot 205. I am thinking hill climb or circuit racing. I did some rally back with my Cortinas those many years ago but I donít think I have the cash or commitment for that now. I am asking now so that when I start rebuilding I might incorporate some necessary features into the rebuild. I am mostly thinking about a roll cage. I donít want to leave it in so I guess it will be a bolt-in but now is the time to cater for that.
    So here is my plan for the car:-
    I want to build the lightest weight 205 I can, but still with some daily drivability. So I wonít be stripping out all the trim, carpet etc, but if I can save 1 kg on 20 items it gives me the equivalent of an XU9 block weight. Iím not going to throw the baby out with the bath water but as opportunities arise I will replace items with the lightest weight option I can find.
    I havenít finalised the engine yet and am debating whether to go the 16V route. My main concern is power/weight or torque/weight ratio. I think I could get a good power/torque increase from the 8V. I am probably more interested in mid range torque, although it would be great to open it up and feel the power come on at higher revs. I did drive a 16V 205 before I bought my white car but as I have been driving a 308 HDi for many years that pokes along at 110km/h at 1900 rpm I was driving the 205 the same. I commented that I wasnít really that impressed when he told me to get it up above 4500rpm and then I smiled.
    I am also thinking about building the car to run on E85. Not so much for the race aspect but for environmental reasons. Itís a bit of a oxymoron to build an environmental race car but when Iím burning rubber and screaming around a track or up a hill I guess I can take some solace.
    But anyway I guess the next weekend I should start stripping the car. So the first question to pose to the aussirfrogs experts is...... Should I get myself an engine stand? I was planning to take my engine out and sit it on a workbench and strip it down. Despite all the effort I went to clearing out space I am still pushed for it. I imagine the engine would be much easier to work on on an engine stand and when I am finished I guess I could push it back into the engine bay for storage between Monday to Friday. Any learned lessons here would be appreciated......

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    1000+ Posts lion5's Avatar
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    impressive garage, good to finally see pics of it =]

    My engine stand cost me $50 from a member here, it was an aldi one that went for $50 to $100 new from aldi.

    Chinese ones on ebay cost about $90 to $150 brand new, and they are very good bang for buck, just like my chinese made press.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    You'd be struggling (and failing) badly to take out the head bolts without the engine held properly in something. Not to mention when it comes to apply the proper torque on engine reassembly. It's gonna be a real bitch. Engine stand is the go, and if you want my advice, make your own adaptor plate so you can bolt it in sideways. That way you can work on the flywheel end as well (installing main bearing seal, etc). If you make the plate such that you can attach the g'box to the engine with the engine on the stand you'll thank me. They come out and go in as a complete assembly.
    I assume you have an engine crane.
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    That's the sort of info I thought I would get. Thanks I didn't really think about that it that much. That is probably the way I would want to do it now that you mention it. Also having it transverse means less cantilever on the stand and means I can park it in the engine bay the way it came out. No I don't have an engine crane. You can't see it but the garage roof is a formed slab with bondek base. I designed it so I can suspend all my stuff from the roof for storage as well as being a deck above. From memory I think it will take about 500kg/m2. There is also an attachment that goes in the ribs on the bondek that can support 680kg so I will use a chain block to get it out onto the engine stand.
    Rowan

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    Found myself a engine stand.
    533852 - Tools Online
    I know I might lose some stability with the single leg but I think I will be happier when it comes to manoeuvring around my garage.
    So I am working on the assumption that if i do end up with a XU9J4 engine and gearbox i will be supporting
    150kg for the dry engine + 35kg for the gearbox. So it looks like the 750lb will be the go. I can't seem to find a lighter one anywhere. Clarks makes a 500lb in the UK but I can't find one here. The rear wheels look a bit pissy but I think I will change these to locking casters anyway.

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    Dont bother making it lighter. They are already light.

    Imho I would make a hot 8 valve, get a shart gearbox a set of konis, lower it 30mm and add a rear 21-22mm rear arb.

    It will be good on the road, still light and enought power to have fun on the road (without having to drive silly speeds) and quick and responsive on the track.

    Its deminishing returns with weight saving in a 205. The only things you could do would be a lighter battery, lighter wheels(c5) and loose the spare on the track. Apart from that everything you remove will make it less livable.

    Cam
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    Thanks Cam. I was looking over your track car thread last night. I think I may have to revise my title as I don't think I can justify calling my restoration a track car when I look at what you are doing. I was interested in some of the stuff you were looking at so I might come back and pick your brain when the time comes. I guess I am not really building a track car.... what I want is exactly what you said.....a fast road car that I can run an occasional hill climb or social track day. I agree with what you are saying about diminishing returns. I see you and Pat are chasing weight saving which I could never achieve without sacrificing daily use. What I am more interested in is things like the battery (Superstart had a lithium ion one that was just under 2kg. Expensive at around $500 but I don't have a battery at the moment so I am thinking about this. They say that it should be OK as daily drive as long as I don't have alarm etc that drain while the car is sitting around. I don't have a starter motor either so when I get one I will get the slim version and save another 2kg. It is just these types of items that I was planning to concentrate on.
    As for the suspension I really like the one in my daily drive. I will swap this onto this car when it is finished. I don't know what the setup consists of but the front has Tracer coilovers. I can't find any details on them at the moment but I believe they are made in Germany. The car corners with almost no body roll so it must have some mod to the ARB. One of the things I remember about my old red 205 I have was that every time I turned into a corner it just begged my to turn in more. This one at the moment does so even more. I get a smile just driving around corner at 50 km/h. This is the main reason I have changed my mind about maybe doing some sort of occasional motorsport in it. I am still leaning towards a worked 8V engine.

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    If looking to go into some motorsport it would be prudent to look at what class you are building the car to. Generally you would go into Improved Production. Race

    There are some up front rules about engines used and weight and age if you decide to get serious after you start running at some club events. Nobody will be very worried until you get up to the sharp end of the field, and then the protests will come in if you are deemed to have gone outside the competition rules.

    If say you decided to fit an Mi16 motor or even just a 16V head to your "Late model" built after 1/1/86 you would have to lift your vehicle weight to 1045Kg to comply, losing much of the advantage of a 205s light weight.

    I have this SSB Lithium battery in my BMW 2002 racecar, 1.7 Kg 420cca $282 delivered. Very happy over the last year of use.
    SSB LFP20HL BS Ultralite Lithium CB16CL B YTX20L BS CB16L B HVT 1 Honda Yamaha | eBay
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    '92 205 Mi16
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    Do you guys run these batteries total loss, or do you find they are okay running on alternator charge? I've been told they won't warrant them if used in a road car.

    Sent from my Q10 using Tapatalk

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    Wouldn't a 1kg battery be fantastic. I first got onto these guys when I saw someone start a car with one of these powerbricks that was about the size of a VHS cassette (for those of you that remember them). I thought if that can start a car why are we carrying around lumps of lead in our cars. Unfortunately it's a bit more complicated than it sounds. I contacted SSB a while ago and they came up with a battery for me (for my road car) The issue isn't CCA rather it is the Ah. It has to do t=with the drain on the battery. Things like the dash clock and the radio clock - stuff that continually draw from the battery are not what these batteries are good at. I guess if you had a race car with a master switch that could isolate everything that would work as these batteries can sit around for months without losing charge. Apparently the one he recommended for me was about 600-700 CCA just to get the Ah I needed for a road car. He said he runs one in his daily drive V8 commodore. I thought I had an email from him so I will see if I can find it and let everyone know which one was recommended for the 205 as a road car.
    Rowan

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    Thanks Alan for the info. I have been reading Cam & Pats 205 Race Car thread and I have picked up a little on the different races. It seem this IPRA has a few too many hoops that restrict the 205. I assume CSCA (is this Supersprints?) or MRA might be the go. It seem to be a common class on this site. Although 3J sounds like it fits this bill so maybe this might be the go. ITS ALL SO CONFUSING. Also I might need to look at AARA that parry mentioned. Or is this the equivalent of Beta tapes (again for those that remember). What I really want to fix on at this stage is welding my shell before I paint it. So I am really after an idea on what sort of mods to do now to the shell to allow me to bolt in a cage that will meet the requirements later if I want to race. It is a road car essentially so the cage will need to come out. I don't know.... maybe I just need a main hoop and back braces. I haven't got a CAMS manual yet so maybe I should get one of these but the engine / brakes / suspension mods can come later. I just don't want to weld up my newly painted body later.
    ......mmm BMW 2002. What a great car. This may not go down well on a French car site but I still have a love for well designed front engine rear wheel drive car. I have always loved this car........
    Rowan

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    The weekend of 27-28 June is a good opportunity to see both a CSCA and an MRA round at Wakefield. On Sat Round 3 of the CSCA Supersprint series is running. Then on Sunday, Round 3 of the MRA race series. My son John has entered both. Like the CAMS Supersprints, CSCA has a number of different classes, both marque and non-marque. We run in what's called NM3A(modern). ie non-marque (Peugeot isn't a CSCA member club), 3A (unregistered <2L cars), modern - post 1985. The modern class is only a recent addition. The guys with pre '85 cars were getting upset that 205's and Clios were winning everything. In MRA we run in <2L slicks Super TT. Basically anything goes, other than engine size. As you've probably gathered, a 205 isn't a good IPRA car if you want to be competitive.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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    Ok so maybe I am going about this the wrong way. I guess i want a road car that I can take to the track rather than a track car I can register. So I think the only thing I really need to do is have a roll cage just in case. So maybe I need to decide on what I want to do to my road car and then see what categories this allows me to race in. I'll start putting together a wish list as this is needed anyway for my project.
    Rowan

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    Have you driven one?
    Pretty harsh and cheap feeling, the Datsun 1600 not only copied it but improved on it in my opinion and this is born out by motorsport results over the years.

    .
    Quote Originally Posted by slash.dot.dash View Post
    Thanks Alan for the info. I have been reading Cam & Pats 205 Race Car thread and I have picked up a little on the different races. It seem this IPRA has a few too many hoops that restrict the 205. I assume CSCA (is this Supersprints?) or MRA might be the go. It seem to be a common class on this site. Although 3J sounds like it fits this bill so maybe this might be the go. ITS ALL SO CONFUSING. Also I might need to look at AARA that parry mentioned. Or is this the equivalent of Beta tapes (again for those that remember). What I really want to fix on at this stage is welding my shell before I paint it. So I am really after an idea on what sort of mods to do now to the shell to allow me to bolt in a cage that will meet the requirements later if I want to race. It is a road car essentially so the cage will need to come out. I don't know.... maybe I just need a main hoop and back braces. I haven't got a CAMS manual yet so maybe I should get one of these but the engine / brakes / suspension mods can come later. I just don't want to weld up my newly painted body later.
    ......mmm BMW 2002. What a great car. This may not go down well on a French car site but I still have a love for well designed front engine rear wheel drive car. I have always loved this car........

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    1000+ Posts cam85's Avatar
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    What are you referring to graham?
    98 Xantia CT
    94 205 Gti Classic #9
    92 405 Mi16
    87 205 GTi Race Car
    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/res...-race-car.html

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    2002..

    Quote Originally Posted by cam85 View Post
    What are you referring to graham?

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    So this is what I was thinking for my car. Based on this what would restrict me from running in certain events..... I still have ruled out running a 1.9 Mi16 engine later on.

    Body


    • Some seam welding. Within reason....I heard of a guy that fully welded his body and ended up using a full 20kg spool of MIG wire. Not much point in this I think.
    • Attachment plates for bolt in roll cage.
    • Leave in place all my carpet / trim. Although I did see some nice carbon door trims. (not so much for light weigh but just because they look cool.)
    • Definitely some new seats (Recaro Speeds or Bride Low Max or something similar). Tilting so I can still get my ittle ones in the back.


    Engine

    • Keep my exiting 8V and work it. Headwork incl cams, porting, polishing, etc (maybe get the existing valve size).
    • Keep the existing OEM exhaust manifold.
    • Initially just port the inlet and maybe run a K&N filter that I have laying around. Eventually run some throttle bodies and a programable ECU.
    • I have heard there is a 90.9mm crank available. I guess it would be a aftermarket grind but it would be nice to have a little more stroke for torque. Intention is to stay under 2L. Maybe this may be prohibitively expensive.


    Gearbox

    • Run a close ratio box built out of existing gears from BE1/BE3 boxes.
    • Quaife LSD (which I believe may be in my daily drive car).



    Brakes


    • Replace existing front discs with upgraded brakes. At this stage I am considering a big brake kit (286 x 22) with 4 or 6 piston alloy calipers. These are 2-piece semi floating iron rotors rings with aluminium rotor hats. I am trying to get better brakes without too much of a increase in rotating mass.
    • Replace the rear drums with discs (most likely just standard 205 or 306 rear discs).
    • I would like to follow Pat & Cams lead with a twin cylinder pedal with bias bar but I am also leaning towards Grahams wish for an arrangement that keeps the vacuum booster. I'm just not sure if this is possible. Maybe I might just use a proportional valve in the rear brake line.


    Suspension

    • Replace my existing trailing arms with 306 (or 309) arms (to get the disc brakes and slight increase in track, toe and camber)
    • Reuse my existing daily drive Tracer coilovers and rear shocks.
    • Reuse my existing daily drive rear ARB which is a traditional adjustable bolt-on rose jointed bar.



    Sound system

    • 500 megawatt subwoofer provided it adds no more than 125g of weigh to the car.
    Rowan

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    No Graham just admired from afar. I have driven a E30 & E36 M3 so I assumed this heritage came from somewhere. Datsun 1600s were my nemesis when I rallied my Mk 1 Cortina so I know what you mean.
    Rowan

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    I'd say run in Autocross, the cars are much more competitive on gravel.
    However, there are virtually no tracks in NSW.
    The odd Khanacross though.

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slash.dot.dash View Post
    Found myself a engine stand.
    533852 - Tools Online
    I know I might lose some stability with the single leg but I think I will be happier when it comes to manoeuvring around my garage.
    So I am working on the assumption that if i do end up with a XU9J4 engine and gearbox i will be supporting
    150kg for the dry engine + 35kg for the gearbox. So it looks like the 750lb will be the go. I can't seem to find a lighter one anywhere. Clarks makes a 500lb in the UK but I can't find one here. The rear wheels look a bit pissy but I think I will change these to locking casters anyway.
    NO. Get the proper one with 4 wheels, otherwise you'll be cursing the day you bought it. It is terribly easy to tip that one over once you have the engine weight above it. The price difference won't break even a greek bank.

    The wheels (castors) are pretty solid (cast steel?). Don't worry about them.

    The problem with using a chain and block is that you have to fiddle about a bit to get things in and out of the engine bay. I assume you don't have a rail running across your ceiling, so you'll have to move the car away once the engine is out. This means more work to put the wheels/suspension back on.

    I say forget that idea and get an engine crane. One of those load levelling devices would be handy too, once you have the 'box on, you'll need it.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

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    Point taken.... I was also concerned about stability. But this is part of a complete strip down. This is what I was planning to have the front end looking like prior to removing the engine.
    Peugeot 205 GTi Road? / Track? car-205gti-bay.jpg
    I have shown my boys what a spanner and torx bit looks like so I guess i'm ready. I don't have a rail but was planning on transferring the engine straight to the engine stand (sideways as you suggested as this is an excellent idea.) What is a load levelling device????
    Rowan

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    1000+ Posts Andrew Ch's Avatar
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    It allows you to adjust the balance of weight of the engine you are removing from the car and attaches to engine hoist hook or eye.Peugeot 205 GTi Road? / Track? car-imageuploadedbytapatalk1434023587.338791.jpg

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    Ok I'll look into one of these. I was working on the assumption of using the lifting lugs on the block. Has anyone experience with these lugs. I assume Peugeot put them there to lift the whole engine g/box out so I thought they would be close to the centre of gravity.
    Rowan

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    1000+ Posts PeterT's Avatar
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    I always lift the engine/gearbox combo with the standard lifting lugs. No need for a balance bar.
    FIVEDOOR likes this.

    '92 205 Mi16
    '90 Mi16x4

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