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Thread: 1962 dauphine Gordini Project

  1. #76
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    You might need to go to a Barnes store in person to see the full array of products. 'shore 85A' is what you need for bushes, it's quite firm but needs to support the weight of the car without squashing.

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    The prices charged for the completed bushes from your supplier are quite reasonable, so I would go that way because as you correctly stated, the steel tube diameter needs to be precise so a press fit into the suspension arms can be achieved.

    A lathe isn't essential, just makes it easier.

  2. #77
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    Default Steering Wheel Removal.

    1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1376.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1377.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1378.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1383.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1384.jpg

    I've hit an obstacle here.

    That 35mm "nut" (I'm pretty sure) is actually part of the splined hub that the s/wheel bolts to via 3x12mm M7 nuts & bolts. Crazily enough, the heads of the bolts can spin freely (why weren't they welded on?) but I was able to hold them still by pushing down on the wheel. The nut that holds the wheel on is a 27mm jobbie. I thought it was a lock nut & a 35mm nut held the wheel on! The most convincing evidence is special tool Dir21 in the manual. This is a puller to remove the steering wheel. There is a lip on the circumference of the 35mm nut that the jaws of Dir21 lock onto.

    Anyhow, I adapted a puller I made to remove Kombi steering wheels & tried to get the hub off. As you can see the trafficator arm has broken off & I'd like to replace it. But despite a fearful amount of tension it just won't budge.

    I think I'll leave it alone- discretion may be the better part of valour here. I don't really have to remove the hub.

    I may just drill the stump of the trafficator arm & glue in a painted 4 inch round head nail!

    Comments?
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  3. #78
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Hi George, I think that boss will need to come off as you may never get the 3 bolts done up again. Now is the time to get it off while you have the chance because it will only be a problem later on. I had a job getting my wheel off for the first time too, had to give it a bit of a bang with a hammer from memory.

  4. #79
    My Supermodel 63-1092's Avatar
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    I had trouble with a Floride last year, I even rang for advice, gas bottle and some heat first then pull.
    John
    Александър Кристоф Шанел

  5. #80
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Hi George, I think that boss will need to come off as you may never get the 3 bolts done up again. Now is the time to get it off while you have the chance because it will only be a problem later on. I had a job getting my wheel off for the first time too, had to give it a bit of a bang with a hammer from memory.

    OK Graham.

    I'll hit it with Big Bertha: my Ingersoll rattle gun.

    I think (hope?) the flat steel on the bottom the puller that is applying the pull will bend before the hub does. Either that or the thread will strip.
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  6. #81
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 63-1092 View Post
    I had trouble with a Floride last year, I even rang for advice, gas bottle and some heat first then pull.

    All I have is a butane kitchen blowtorch. I refuse to pay BOC's exorbitant fees for oxy acetylene.

    Is there no risk of the plastic melting??
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  7. #82
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    All I used was a little gas bottle, as a sparky, that we have to solder with.
    All the plastic stuff for the stork and so on I'd already removed.
    If I'd known last night I could of come over with the gas bottle as I was in Geelong for the football.
    John
    Александър Кристоф Шанел

  8. #83
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    Not even a mm of movement & the hub is starting to flex. Plus there is a rubber disc in there too which will burn with heat

    Can someone show me a picture of what's meant to come off?

    I AM correct in saying the 35mm nut slides off, yes??

    Will the steering column come out with the hub? I can use a press then
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  9. #84
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I'd go onto ebay and look for a factory parts manual - they do come up from time to time - then you'd have exploded diagrams of everything. Look for "Renault manual". I think I saw one recently. I'll have a look at mine and scan the page if it seems useful later today.

    It used to be "get your knees behind the wheel and give the centre nut a good whack" to shock it off. You might have the wheel off its hub.

    Cheers
    Last edited by JohnW; 9th January 2016 at 12:08 PM.
    JohnW

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  10. #85
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    The attached pic probably won't tell you anymore than you already know but The spline is on a slight taper and will release if you persist, you may need to consider a bit of shock therapy via the liquid nitrogen method, it's available in a pressure pack and usually works.

    When you do finally get it off, remember to apply a dob of Vaso so it doesn't stick again.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_3034.jpg  

  11. #86
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    More diagrams....

    I see Graham moved fast!

    I reckon you've got the plastic wheel component off its hub, and that is what remains firmly stuck on the column. I presume you've unfastened one nut and are seeing the hexagonal steel centre of the steering wheel's hub, not a removable nut. Does this hex. fitting have a slot around it to get puller feet into? It's narrow, and designed for a Renault service tool, illustrated on one of my attachments. WD40, patience, maybe the freezing pressure pack instead of or as well as heat?

    Cheers
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1962 dauphine Gordini Project-steering-wheel-diagram-2.jpg   1962 dauphine Gordini Project-steering-wheel-instructions.jpg   1962 dauphine Gordini Project-pr-650u.jpg   1962 dauphine Gordini Project-mr-42-cover.jpg  
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  12. #87
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    Default I've Answered My Own Question (AGAIN!)

    1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1385.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1386.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1387.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1388.jpg


    It suddenly dawned on me that I got another steering wheel with the spares.

    Well, duh! All is revealed!

    Graham, here is a photo of the old one as well. Yes blue/black IS correct.


    I've left it under permanent tension. You can see the flat bits of the puller giving way and the threaded shaft actually bending! Hopefully time lubricant & liquid freeze will do it.


    As I have another hub on the black/white wheel, it won't be a disaster it I have to cut it.


    HANG ON A MINUTE!

    I'm pulling on the second disc. Is that one fixed?? Doesn't seem to be according to the diagrams. But I can see the bolt heads on the spare wheel.


    Sacre Bloody Bleu!
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  13. #88
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    I have always removed my Renault steering wheels by giving the center steering shaft/splines a very hard BASH with a good sized hammer before then just removing by wiggling.
    Have you tried the BASH method ?? Make sure the nut is level with the end of the steering shaft so as not to burr the threads of the steering shaft.

    Phil

  14. #89
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I think you are pulling on the right place - normally, with the wheel attached to that hub, you'd have the puller just under the top part of the hexagon, as the only option of course.

    Leave the load on and keep adding WD40, maybe shrinking things with the freezing pressure pack. I had one sit with a puller for a few days and it went bang one night and all was free.

    I suspect most of us have used Phil's "BASH" method too - shock loading. But I've never seen anyone remove the wheel from the inner hub before either. The old wheel seems beyond polish! Did the car live in the sun for a few decades??
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  15. #90
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Yes, the bash method works well. As suggested screw the nut to line up with the end of the column for load sharing. This won't help you George but jam yer knees behind steering wheel and give it either a big bash with a small hammer or a small bash with a big hammer, but a bash will work.

    Naturally I would never normally suggest such a brutal method but since others have let the cat out I should concur.

  16. #91
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1390.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1391.jpg


    ***** But I've never seen anyone remove the wheel from the inner hub before either.******

    I had a secret weapon:

    a 1/4 drive 12mm socket sharpened to a fine point on the bench grinder.
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  17. #92
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    Have you got it off yet?
    John
    Александър Кристоф Шанел

  18. #93
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1392.jpg

    Naah!

    It's just hanging there & the outer ends of the hub under tension from the puller are slightly bent.

    I need one of these, methinks:

    NEW 10pc Hydraulic Bearing Separator Tool SET Gear Puller Remover Extension ROD | eBay


    I might have a go at splitting the hub.

    There must be 2 discs because there is a rubber cushion. A sort of a shock absorber?
    EDIT
    Top disc is just a washer. not splined
    Last edited by geodon; 9th January 2016 at 06:40 PM.
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  19. #94
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    Default Yeeeehah!

    1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1393.jpg

    This did it:

    Whilst maintaining tension, I held a long screwdriver under the lip of the hex section & gave it a few hits with a bolster hammer.

    Half turn Repeat. Half turn repeat etc. About 6 times. Nothing. Then while I uttered certain Italian profanities, I heard a lovely "snap"!
    59 Floride and JohnW like this.
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  20. #95
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    Great, but the secret must have been those "certain Italian profanities"
    Any day I wake up and don't have to go to work, is a good day
    Every day is a good day

  21. #96
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    Yup, it does need to understand that you mean business.

    You'll never have that problem again if you don't over-tighten the big nut. Just enough to keep the wheel hub on the column and not come undone is all it needs, with occasional checking to make sure you tightened "just enough".

    Great.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  22. #97
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    Default Don't Look if You're Squeamish

    OK!

    Removing the steering wheel made b-all difference to accessibility. The rack stayed put.


    Apologies to the purists but I then elected to cut an access panel.

    Seriously I estimate the removal of the flex coupling's 2 split pins & castellated nuts then removal of the master cylinder is a full days work of a high level of frustration. The master cylinder has 3 outlets. The two for the front wheels can stay on & come out with the cylinder but the one feeding the rears has to come off. Where is that one? At the bottom, naturallement, where it's almost invisible unless it can be got at from above. These things are really hard to get off if rusted in and as for lining them up without cross-threading them when you can't see what you're doing? Well, Bon Chance with that!

    So! I got to use my $19.95 Aldi die grinder with a very narrow disc.

    The bridge piece is 2mm steel and will be attached to the cut-out via plug welds.

    I WAS going to use 6mm rivnuts to re-attach it but they need 10mm holes to be drilled. So, I've decided to go with up to 15 pop rivets. My reasoning is access won't be required all that often so drilling out & re-inserting pop rivets will be a small price to pay for the great access.

    The panel & bridge piece will naturally be the same colour & I will dip the rivet heads in the paint so they match. If you visualise the panel & rivets in the body colour I don't think it will look TOO bad. It will be under a rubber mat anyway.

    Once the hole was done it was a 5 minute job to remove the rack. Yes! That's a tiny nick in the brake line. About 1 mm deep but it didn't go thru. I'll but a blob of braze over it when it comes out.

    I was lucky with the top wishbone pivot pins- they pushed out real easily & are now stewing in the electrolysis tanks. I'll do the rack the old fashioned way- manually. I'm not sure what the alloy will do in the tank!


    1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1394.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1395.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1396.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1397.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1398.jpg1962 dauphine Gordini Project-img_1399.jpg
    Last edited by geodon; 10th January 2016 at 11:03 PM.
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  23. #98
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I've never taken as long as a day for that job, be reassured. You just unfasten the bolt/pressure switch from the end of the master cylinder (socket spanner with long extension and reasonable length breaker bar) and leave the banjo union with the three copper pipes in place - I've never even tried to undo those pipes from the brass union in decades of ownership. Then unfasten the input pipe from the reservoir, awkward but not impossible, and only then the 10mm bolts that hold the MC in place. Maybe an hour or two?

    The steering flex joint has never taken me more than an hour or two, even from the side, with appropriate spanners, and you've "opened up" the access, that is for sure. Thanks for the photos of that. Will you write it up for Fourword please, with photos?

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  24. #99
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
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    There's a banjo union there?? How very British!

    You have more patience than me, John

    Don't forget accelerator & clutch cables will be easier too.

    What's Fourword?
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  25. #100
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    On my Alpine GTA V6 turbo, removal of the very large plastic fuel tank is necessary to get to the brake master cylinder. It's not that bad of a job, only that it seems to happen at the inopportune time when the tank is full. The master cylinder is in a similar position to the Dauphine G.

    I agree with John that the Dauphine brake master and steering flector replacement aren't all that much fun, but I have done worse jobs. (Try a starter motor on a 16.) When taking out an old master cylinder I have been successful in purposely snapping the two 6mm mounting bolts off. Heaps easier than trying to undo tight 10mm nuts one flat a time. I upgrade the bolts to 8mm Unbrako style bolts. We all know how hard we push on the brake pedal in these cars.
    JohnW likes this.
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