Panhard 24 CT restoration
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Thread: Panhard 24 CT restoration

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Default Panhard 24 CT restoration

    The first phase of this restoration was done before the great crash, when most of the posts were lost. They described this very unusual bit of engineering and the restoration of the noisy bits. The car had had a rear end crunch and had been crudely repaired with resin and rivets. The floor pan was corroded and had been repaired with angle iron, scrap steel plate and more rivets. A couple of year's ago I raised sufficient energy to restore the bodywork and began by cutting out the floor, rivets and all. I then started the project to make a new floor to the original design. That involved several hundred TIG welds and had been abandoned several times through health and other priorities. Now as we are moving house, it has moved to priority 2 after the need to prepare the house for sale.
    The floor is a few welds away from completion and I have to clean and prepare the frame to weld it in place. This weeks project has been to turn the body on its side to give access and to avoid welding overhead. With the help of friends Michel and NoŽl and two cranes it is in place.
    You can track the work by the photoalbum which will be updated as I go. it is at the moment unsorted and unannotated, but there are only 28 hours in the day. Follow it at
    panhard

    The photos taken this week already show the unusual frame structure. It consists of a rectangle of tubes with the front end split
    by a section fitted with tenon joints and secured by two large bolts. That section carries the cradle (red) which supports the front drive train.
    Before turning the body we removed the drive train which just involves undoing the two bolts and removing all the electrical and other connections to the engine. The gear shift, cable linked to the box and normally floor mounted came with it.
    You can see the unusual rear suspension. It uses a triangle fixed to the body on a central rubber bush. Each end is sprung by torsion bars and shocks mounted to the rear body panels. The unusual wheels have a narrow rim bolted to a ribbed alloy centre which, with a steel liner, forms the brake drum, proving external cooling.
    There is at least one photo left over from the pre-crash era that show the gear box design. To minimise size and weight the third of the four gears is direct and the output shaft drives a conventional but small crown wheel and pinion. The crown wheel then drives another shaft through reduction gears and that one carries the diff and the shafts to the front wheel shafts. Very clever and very expensive to make .
    The rear corners of the tubular frame are reinforced by an L tube welded over the side members. This in turn is stiffened by a corner plate that carries the jacking point and in some later versions, a seat belt fixing. One is still in place, the other I cut out to use as a template to replace both. The floor is not really stressed, that is done by the tubes. It offers little to the torsional rigidity as its ribs only run front to back.
    Much more to come.....................

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Wonderful photos Gerry and thanks for sharing. I just love the Panhard engineering. Not a trivial job you are tackling.... Best wishes for not too many nasty surprises.

    I saw a cutaway engine/transmission unit at Retromobile on my lucky visit - factory material I think. So compact and, as you observed, so expensive!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    You certainly have your work cut out for you there Gerry! Bon Chance!
    Your replacement floor is looking very neat.
    That rear suspension looks very 'Traction'
    Cheers Gerry

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Thanks for the encouragement. The album is now fully operational with the comments to each photo.
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    I like the way you have used the engine crane to roll the body. Much cheaper then building a rotisserie. I think I will use this method to access the underside of my 11BL. It is not nice refinishing the under floor lying flat on ones back!
    Cheers Gerry

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Panhard 24 CT restoration-dsc01367s.jpgThe best method that I have found is the one I used to roll my 11BL. The garage roof was supported on transverse H beams. So I fitted a chain hoist on rollers. End of story.
    Here it is alongside another project of the era (2003)
    Last edited by gerry freed; 3rd July 2014 at 06:59 PM.
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    The way they make garage roofs these days, I would not chance suspending anything heavy from the roof beams. C section trusses are good for supporting roof panels but that is all!
    In my previous old fashioned garage I was able to suspend a chain block with a six motor and gearbox on the end of it!
    I think I will go the engine crane route!
    Cheers Gerry

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Yes I made a lucky choice of house with a 9 car garage underneath. The beams were there to hold the house up, not the garage roof. Our recent house hunting showed up nothing like it.
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    wonderful those pictures tell a million stories ,i see those engine mounts connected to the exhaust pipes you have mentioned before ,the complete body structure must be very light ,cant see there being a lot of turgidity in that floor design ,the rear suspension is amazing ,pugs

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The rear suspension uses a very short torsion bar each side. These are fixed in plate which twists on two thinner bars that are at their extreme ends clamped to the chassis. The result, as you see, is a very compact arrangement.
    The overall empty weight is 840kms with fuel etc. It is divided 470kgms on the front wheels and 370 on the rear. With the engine and most of the gearbox ahead of the front wheel, the front assembly is very nose heavy which is apparent when you try and move it. I jack the front of the cradle up and slide a trolley under it. Then the assembly rolls quite easily with the trolley carrying most of the weight.
    The rigidity of the floor is a concern. The rectangular round tube frame is very rigid but I suspect provides limited torsional rigidity. The floor has longitudinal stiffeners but nothing special transversely. It is very thin and depends for its stiffness also on the seat fixing rails. The front bulkhead below the dashboard is only 0.7mm steel and its welding to the floor can't do much I think that the intention is that in a frontal crash the mortice joints shear and the people capsule climbs over the front drive train. The bolts are hollow and quite thin walled.
    More pictures (old) added to album
    panhard
    Last edited by gerry freed; 7th July 2014 at 10:45 PM.
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Cleaned up some of the floor fixing strips prior to anti rust treatment and welding. I did a trial fit of the floor and it it is perfect. Sometimes I get these things right. However, it made it clear that it could only be put in position from under the car. That meant the two front corner flanges had to come out also. So all four are now destroyed and I am making copies in 2mm steel. I will conserve the jacking points and reuse them.
    The very thin lower front bulkhead was flexing badly with the use of the accelerator. I removed the hinge assembly and find that it had amost seized and that was doing the damage.The bearing is an afterthought in the Panhard drawing office. The pedal arm has a bolt welded to it at right angles. This bolt screwed into tapped tube welded to a bracket. It can't fall out but pressing the pedal involves turning the bolt in 3cms of thread which has never been greased so far as I can see. It needs a rethink but I haven't the time and in the interests of preserving the original design........
    The album is updated
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The project stopped as it become obvious that I could not thoroughly de rust the tube frame and other parts underneath without sand blasting. Two choices, take it to a sandblaster or do it in situ. The work involved in lifting it onto a truck etc was too much, so I ordered a sand blasting machine. It has just come and work will restart over the weekend.
    Meanwhile, we experienced an unusual side effect of Panhard restoration.
    Yo doesn't see too well but likes to watch her weight. We have a talking weighing machine on the wardrobe bedroom floor which tells her in no uncertain terms that she is not happy with the daily efforts at weight reduction. Recently her voice, (the scales' not Yo's) became somewhat hoarse and over a few weeks dropped to a whisper. Feeling lazy I went out and bought a similar contraption. This one was male and spoke much louder in a choice of six languages but he couldn't manage the intricacies of counting in French (quatre vingt and all that stuff) . That forced me to undo the 18 screws holding the first one together. Inside I found a flat loudspeaker talking downwards though a moulded grill. It was fitted with a plastic diaphragm and a high powered rare earth magnet, being Chinese. The coil was locked firmly down by a ring of steel filings on the diaphragm, concentrated around the magnet gap. It was much more efficient than gaffer tape across the mouth.
    The filings must have travelled on our shoes and clothing from the garage where I have been grinding welds and got sucked in by the magnet. Powerful though it is I don't think it could have attracted them upstairs by itself.
    With a lot of patience I forced them away from the magnet and removed them two rooms away to stop a re-migration. Once re-assembled the gentle tones reappeared at a practical volume. She remains accurate and as impolite as ever. She merely says "l'appareil est prÍte ŗ fonctionner" when turned on.
    The kitchen scales, however, are much more involved with family life. She says "Bonjour, comment allez-vous? " and when you turn her off she finishes her work with "Au revoir". If she gets clobbered by steel filings I am going to be very worried about my diet!
    Last edited by gerry freed; 17th August 2014 at 06:46 PM.
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The sand blasting of the underside of the panel that supports the rear seat is now done and the result protected with Restom epoxy paint. That enabled me to fit the floor in place and check the tubular frame for alignment. It is an accurate rectangle to a couple of mm so I have started welding it in. Photos are on the album. I have also put up photos showing the construction of the drum brakes derived from the PL17. The finned aluminium drum has a steel liner. It is bolted to the stub axle and forms the centre of the wheel. The wheel rim is bolted to an exterior flange. It makes for a light spare wheel. The actual braking system is conventional Lockheed, one of the few bits of normality on the car. These brakes were replaced early in the model life by one of the first disk brake systems. They were notorious for pistons sticking in the calipers and now spares are hard to get.
    The large hole in the floor holds the gear change mechanism which goes via cables to the gearbox. The casting hangs in fresh air and is vulnerable to hitting the road. There is a small protective cover which was not fitted on my car and so I am trying to borrow one to copy.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    The sand blasting of the underside of the panel that supports the rear seat is now done and the result protected with Restom epoxy paint. That enabled me to fit the floor in place and check the tubular frame for alignment. It is an accurate rectangle to a couple of mm so I have started welding it in. Photos are on the album. I have also put up photos showing the construction of the drum brakes derived from the PL17. The finned aluminium drum has a steel liner. It is bolted to the stub axle and forms the centre of the wheel. The wheel rim is bolted to an exterior flange. It makes for a light spare wheel. The actual braking system is conventional Lockheed, one of the few bits of normality on the car. These brakes were replaced early in the model life by one of the first disk brake systems. They were notorious for pistons sticking in the calipers and now spares are hard to get.
    The large hole in the floor holds the gear change mechanism which goes via cables to the gearbox. The casting hangs in fresh air and is vulnerable to hitting the road. There is a small protective cover which was not fitted on my car and so I am trying to borrow one to copy.
    I've just come back to this thread after a couple of months away. Wonderful work, photos and descriptions Gerry, for which many thanks. The drum brake shoes are almost the only conventional component on the whole device it seems to me. Just deliciously original thinking from end to end. You have to marvel at the thinking, detailed design and actual machining of that gearbox-transmission. I'd say the chevron gears are the icing on the cake! The one square cut gear looks a bit tired, but presumably is fine for a long time if not abused?

    We have the French Car Festival in Perth in ten days' time, and it'll be interesting to see whether the emergent Panhard in WA comes again, with or without progress.

    I enjoyed your description of the bathroom scales issue too. Not an obvious cause, that is for sure. And, I imagine, less than easy to get the bits of one of those amazingly powerful little magnets.

    Best wishes for the further work!
    JohnW

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    If she gets clobbered by steel filings I am going to be very worried about my diet!
    Gerry, with all the dirty work you're doing, have you thought about investing in a couple of those throw-away painter suits, the ones that cover shoes-to-throat? Use one during work, remove it in the garage. You're less likely to have metal filings all about, wrecking your scales. When it finally gets too grungy to use or wears out, toss it and use a new one.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post


    Gerry, with all the dirty work you're doing, have you thought about investing in a couple of those throw-away painter suits, the ones that cover shoes-to-throat? Use one during work, remove it in the garage. You're less likely to have metal filings all about, wrecking your scales. When it finally gets too grungy to use or wears out, toss it and use a new one.
    I bought several 2 packs of these and they gathered dust on the garage shelves. The problem was that I am short and diametrically challenged. They are only sold here in XL sizes and not in a range of haeights and widths. The size that fits me centrally leaves lengths of sleeves and trousers that prevent walking and working. It only just occured to me after reading your suggestion that I could have attacked them with scissors as they are throwaway. Instead when I hired helpers to paint our 3metre kitchen ceiling I selected tall individuals and gave them the suits.
    The brain moves slowly and has also concluded that the transfer mechanism is more shoes than clothes. So over the weekend when we go shopping I am going to find some steel capped boots that I can magnetise.
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  17. #17
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    I bought several 2 packs of these and they gathered dust on the garage shelves. The problem was that I am short and diametrically challenged. They are only sold here in XL sizes and not in a range of haeights and widths. The size that fits me centrally leaves lengths of sleeves and trousers that prevent walking and working. It only just occured to me after reading your suggestion that I could have attacked them with scissors as they are throwaway. Instead when I hired helpers to paint our 3metre kitchen ceiling I selected tall individuals and gave them the suits.
    The brain moves slowly and has also concluded that the transfer mechanism is more shoes than clothes. So over the weekend when we go shopping I am going to find some steel capped boots that I can magnetise.
    You could just glue some high power Chinese magnets onto the shoes you have...... They are cheap as chips on ebay.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Have the same problem with my mobile speaker gathering all sorts of sundry iron filings from the workshop (so to speak). Solution is some really sticky duct tape or cloth tape. That's stronger than the magnet. Stick on, peel off, voila! No rubbish on the speaker.
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    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The Panhard is back on four paws. The floor is welded in place with new gussets, supports and valances. The front drive train was reattached today and the next task is to reconnect all its pipes,cables and wiring so that the car can be driven. Then there is the interior trim and the body panels to fit.
    I have been use the Restom range of chemicals and finishes as I have done on other cars.
    Restom - Produits pour la restauration des vťhicules anciens
    I reccomend them, they provided an integrated industrial chemical solution to metal treatment and protection. I am trying their system for protective coating of the inside of fuel tanks which may not work perfectly first time because of the baffles. It is worth a try!
    Pictures will go up on my site shortly.
    Last edited by gerry freed; 24th November 2014 at 01:35 AM. Reason: typos
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    The Panhard is back on four paws. The floor is welded in palce with new gussets, supports and valances. The front drive train was reattached today and the next task is to reconnect all its pipes,cables and wiring so that the car can be driven. Then there is the interior trim and the body panels to fit.
    I have been use the Restom range of chemicals and finishes as I have done on other cars.
    Restom - Produits pour la restauration des vťhicules anciens
    I reccomend them, they provided an integrated industrial chemical solution to metal treatment and protection. I am trying their system for protecvtive coating of the inside of fuel tanks which may not work pÍrfectly first time because of the baffles. It is worth a try!
    Pictures will go up on my site shortly.
    Interesting product range for which thanks. Good she's on her wheels too.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    The fuel tank is coated internally and painted externally. It is bolted in position between the boot and the rear seat. The unique exhaust system is in place, the battery installed and the engine is running. For some reason yet to be explored the rev counter which is cable driven off the distributor shaft is not working.
    Next task is to drive the car onto ramps upfront and to jack the rear onto another pair of ramps. Then I can complete the repair of underbody corrosion and the paint protection of the exposed bits of the tubular frame.
    More pics on
    http://globalfreed/panhard
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Connected the electrics and the fuel and it started as if it was last run yesterday. Did a 180į turn to get the engine compartment in line with the garage space heater. It was -5C this morning. Now to tidy up the front assembly.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry freed View Post
    Connected the electrics and the fuel and it started as if it was last run yesterday. Did a 180į turn to get the engine compartment in line with the garage space heater. It was -5C this morning. Now to tidy up the front assembly.
    Nice work! It is always nice to get a good startup after a long break.

    I once was at Gazolene's Sunday morning gathering (bliss) at about that temperature and was pleased not to be working on anything. About zero is Perth's minimum and it doesn't last long! There was a superb, unrestored Panhard there too, some sort of coupe. Worn and weary but complete and very active.
    JohnW

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    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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  24. #24
    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    You may be amused to know that the 24 has no fuses. The electrical system is protected by a rotary circuit breaker on the inner front wing. The main -ve lead from the battery is connected to it. It has a rotary ratchet actuated by pulling and then pushing a rigid cable like a choke cable with a similar knob on the dash. When rotated to the "on" quadrant it couples the -ve lead to its frame which is bolted to the wing with star washers. In the other quadrants it is disconnected. To make sure that the battery gets to the engine block there is a flexible cable from the wing to the shock absorber mounting on the front cradle. There is then another braided flexible from the cradle to the engine which is mounted on rubber blocks. Why do anything simply when with a little thought you can make it that complicated?
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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Photos updated at
    panhard

    Details, details, details but real progress is being made and assembly of the body panels is but a few days away. When I ran the motor to turn the car round, it revved like made or died, the carby had little control. Michel and I took the lid off and found that the needle valve was hanging loose so that the floats did nothing. How it got that way I have no idea. When I tightened it the fuel level was too high so I went through the procedure or setting by adjusting the washer thickness. Now runs very smoothly.
    Couldn't get a new cork float for the fuel gauge sender so I sealed an old one in epoxy. Works just fine.
    The body panels are held on by bolts fixed into prisoner square nuts. These are a great idea for assembly but the nuts are a sitting target for corrosion. I have had to make a number of prison cages and nuts to supplement a source from the few Panhard parts suppliers that remain. The previous owner had replaced half of them with modern clips but it is not my style.
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