A110 Restoration
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default A110 Restoration

    As part of the restoration of my A110, I have acquired a R8G motor from Rob Sealey and it will be mated with a 5 speed box built by Richard Mann also in Melbourne. It came with the car when I bought it from Neil Tollich in Auckland 2 years ago. A lot of work has already been undertaken and it made its first appearance at our Canberra French Car Day last November with the original motor (Type 688) and gearbox (Type 330). It has passed rego and is on historic plates. It was after the gearbox lost reverse gear last January, I decided that I might as well fit the 5 speed box and a new engine while I was at it. Now I have discovered that I will need to instal a front mounted radiator as predicted by Rob. A "dummy" fitting of the R8G motor showed that while the rear radiator fitted, there was no room to fit the fan so am biting the bullet and have decided to instal a front radiator with all the plumbing that this entails. Has anyone done this task and re there any pitfalls to watch out for? I note that the suppliers of the gear like Mecaparts, GBS Alpine and Simons Auto all supply the bits including aluminium tubes and rubber hoses (one does supply silicone hoses). I know Al Kelly went for stainless steel for his rally Alpine but does any one have any experience of the type of tubes that should be fitted and if it is worth going for silicone hoses over rubber?

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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thank God I have had no responses. Big boo boo. Now discovered that the rear radiator and fan do fit with the R8G motor after a further dummy fit with both the engine and gearbox. Will now save on getting a front installation done but nevertheless will still instal a thermo fan at the rear of the radiator. There is enough room. Have been getting costings anyway from overseas suppliers of front radiator installation bits anyway and can supply if any one is interested - still not complete as yet as some still to advise freight cost. PM me if interested.

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    hey great car and a new 5 speed and G engine sounds like a really good move
    in my view a front radiator is much more efficient and worthwhile in its own right
    there is always copper pipe or stainless flex hose that is bendable it is corrugated.

  4. #4
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    So far the overseas suppliers want to charge heaps of freight to get the bits out here eg GBS Alpine say 550 Euros air freight to Canberra - ridiculous! Overall cost of the gear, including freight, is over 2000 Euros with freight comprising nearly 27% of the cost. I think part of the problem is the need to package up the longer pipes that go down the central chassis tube so it sounds like a good idea to get your own piping here in Oz. Al Kelly used stainless steel in his rally A110. Copper pipe is an option but curious about stainless flex hose as I think it would be quite expensive - flex stainless steel hose for my oil cooler cost over $33/metre and that was with a trade rebate. So I'd imagine larger diameter hose would cost a bomb.

  5. #5
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    I used copper tubes & rubber hoses for the front radiator in my 4CV - works a treat.

    I'd also recommend fitting a Davies-Craig electric water pump & controller (which will control on electric fan as well). Not only is the flow rate better (especially if stuck in traffic) but it circulates after switch off for a bit. You can, with a bit of fiddling, remove the existing water pump altogether. The electric ones are available for around $25O (pump & controller) on Ebay Australia (my Renault mechanic, who installed mine, has just got one for the R18 motor in his R12).

    On an Easter trip from Tasmania to Junee (North of Wagga) the fan on my 4CV didn't cut in once on the highway. Another benefit of a front radiator (for not just handling balance but, more significantly, for wet road braking) is the weight shift to the front.

    cheers! Peter

  6. #6
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    I am fitting a Davies- Craig thermo fan behind the radiator - there is room to do this in the A110 and the relevant thermo fan is narrow enough and, at Tim Moore's suggestion (he is a fellow Alpinist in the UK), will also fit a Renault Trafic fan in place of the existing metal one. I was thinking of removing the water pump and blanking off the space and installing an electric water pump as per Davies-Craig.

    However, I endevouring to keep the car as close to the A110 1300S format as much as possible and was considering the installation of a front radiator only because I thought (wrongly as it turned out) there would not be enough clearance for a fan between the R8G motor and the rear radiator. I am sure that a front radiator installation would improve handling and weight distribution but it looks to be an expensive option and one which I will put on the back burner for now and will reconsider at a later a date.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    If the pipes are too expensive, have you considered black irrigation pipe? Cost is negligible, shaping is fairly easy, no rust and already black as it should be. Although it won't be original if you want to keep it that way. Original water pump will be just fine so the only cost will be in the radiator. Remember that no fan will give you the air of traveling 100kmh. You are going to have more hp. More HP=more energy= more heat. The rear mounted radiator will be OK for normal traveling but in Aus temp a bit of spirited driving or a long uphill on a summer day could lead to a hotter than normal engine.

    Frans
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

  8. #8
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    Hi Frans

    With the rear radiator, will be using a fan (from a Trafic) on the motor as well as a thermo fan pushing behind the radiator. This should give cool air but have to wait for summer to really try it out. If too hot, will them consider front radiator installation. Just have to remove the whole drive train but getting used to that now.

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    [QUOTE=bazzamac;1156970]<snip>
    a 5 speed box built by Richard Mann also in Melbourne.
    <snip>QUOTE]

    hmm!
    would you mind elaborating on what you've done here and about Mann? (If some of that info is unsuitable for a public post, then I'd appreciate a PM.) I ask because I might be a candidate customer for Mann.
    cheers! Peter

  10. #10
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    Will PM you with Richard's email address. What I have done is mated a R8G motor with a 5 speed box built by Richard. It is not finally in the car yet as I am waiting on larger spline universal joints.

  11. #11
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    I had heard that to fit a 5-speed transmission you have to modify the chassis to make room for the longer box.
    Is that what you're doing? Or are you pushing the whole engine/transaxle farther to the rear?

  12. #12
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    You do not have to modify the chassis to make room for the longer box or push the whole engine/transaxle to the rear. The only modifications that are needed is a shorter gear shift rod (these are available or you can make the existing one shorter with an adjustable headless screw) and slotting the gearbox and engine mounts by about 5mm to centralise the engine/transaxle. The later is needed as there is a 11mm spacer on the right hand side of the gearbox to accommodate the larger diff. Without slotting, your rear wheel track will be too far out on one side relative to the other. The gearbox itself is a little longer but it is the casing is the same as a Type 330 except with the 385 internals from a R16TX or R5 Alpine. The universal joints have to be modified to fit the larger splines of the gearbox.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzamac View Post
    ...so it sounds like a good idea to get your own piping here in Oz. Al Kelly used stainless steel in his rally A110. Copper pipe is an option but curious about stainless flex hose as I think it would be quite expensive - flex stainless steel hose for my oil cooler cost over $33/metre and that was with a trade rebate. So I'd imagine larger diameter hose would cost a bomb.
    Aluminum tube is not so expensive and also works well - I have it on one of my A110s.

  14. #14
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    Aluminium tube is the standard fitting. Problems are finding it in the right size 35mm here in Oz and making sure it doesn't break when bending it into shape. Same applies to copper but can find in 35mm size. However, looks like steel or stainless steel in size 32mm is the go using silicone hoses with reducers where needed. Good selection of hoses available at autoperformance in the UK at Silicone Hoses - AutoSiliconeHoses.com - Buy Silicon Hoses Direct or Call 0844 8000 669

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    A compromise could hard drawn brass tube. Similar price to copper and not as soft.

    However if bending a bit of a pain. You really need to sand bend brass.

    This mob have a comprehensive range of not only brass but most other non ferrous materials. They sell short lengths and are fair in pricing.

    George White | Australia's leading stockist & distributor of non-ferrous metals - Product List - brass tube

    George White | Australia's leading stockist & distributor of non-ferrous metals - home page

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzamac View Post
    Aluminium tube is the standard fitting.
    Interesting - I assumed it was supposed to be copper.

    Quote Originally Posted by bazzamac View Post
    ...and making sure it doesn't break when bending it into shape.
    Mine is just welded with a sharp 90 deg turn instead of being bent.

  17. #17
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    I am told there is one other problem with copper. Electrolysis. Aluminium heads and copper don't mix very well due to this so there is a need to earth the copper pipes. Have heard that the way to bend copper and aluminium is sand bending. Havn't thought of brass tubing - will check it out but note that it also requires sand bending.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzamac View Post
    You do not have to modify the chassis to make room for the longer box or push the whole engine/transaxle to the rear. The only modifications that are needed is a shorter gear shift rod (these are available or you can make the existing one shorter with an adjustable headless screw) and slotting the gearbox and engine mounts by about 5mm to centralise the engine/transaxle. The later is needed as there is a 11mm spacer on the right hand side of the gearbox to accommodate the larger diff. Without slotting, your rear wheel track will be too far out on one side relative to the other. The gearbox itself is a little longer but it is the casing is the same as a Type 330 except with the 385 internals from a R16TX or R5 Alpine. The universal joints have to be modified to fit the larger splines of the gearbox.
    so, if the casing is 'the same as a Type 330', why is it longer? In short, what is the casing from?
    cheers! peter

  19. #19
    Tadpole
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    Here's a pic of the one with welded tubes instead of a bend:


    I'm sure it causes a little bit more restriction than a smooth bend but I don't think it's much and it's never had any issue with running hot. Depending on the material you use this might be easier than trying to bend. Also it might give you more flexibility to use bigger tubes (which would reduce the restriction) and still keep it away from your 5-speed box. These tube are bigger than the other set I have with smooth bends for another car (last pic):

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Firstly Barry - this is not a restoration thread without pics...seriously!

    Secondly - sublimate - how do you find having those solid aluminium gear linkage bushes versus rubber ones?
    I sheared a set of rubber ones in less than 2 yrs with only occasional driving.

    does it jump out of gear, or basically OK?
    KB


  21. #21
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    Never had an issue with it jumping out of gear.
    The lever may buzz and vibrate a bit more than normal, but it's hard to tell - it's on a race car with no carpet, trim, etc. so the whole car is louder and rougher than normal.

    -Victor

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    so, if the casing is 'the same as a Type 330', why is it longer? In short, what is the casing from?
    cheers! peter
    The casing is longer because it has a 5th gear added.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzamac View Post
    The casing is longer because it has a 5th gear added.
    which leaves a question: what's the casing from?

    cheers! Peter

  24. #24
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    I think the casing is the same, the cover on the back of the box (toward the front of the car) is just deeper to contain the 5th gear.
    I can snap a pic of the 2 side by side tomorrow.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sublimate View Post
    I think the casing is the same, the cover on the back of the box (toward the front of the car) is just deeper to contain the 5th gear.
    I can snap a pic of the 2 side by side tomorrow.
    so where is the cover from? an r8g five speed? or custom made? or some other box?

    cheers! peter

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