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  1. #1
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    Default R10 gearboxes

    Hi,

    Does anyone know the part numbers(s) for the 330 gearbox syncro cones and are they the same cone for all 4 gears?

    Wouldn't mind the part number for the carrier bearing seals as well.

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    Can anyone sell me a set?

  2. #2
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I bought mine from Caravelle.

    There is more than one different synchro cone. What you must have too is the energiser springs for the synchro hubs.

    If you go on line (e.g. Web Pieces Retro in France) you'll find the synchro cones for sale too.

    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Hi,

    Does anyone know the part numbers(s) for the 330 gearbox syncro cones and are they the same cone for all 4 gears?

    Wouldn't mind the part number for the carrier bearing seals as well.

    Can anyone sell me a set?
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I bought mine from Caravelle.

    There is more than one different synchro cone. What you must have too is the energiser springs for the synchro hubs.

    If you go on line (e.g. Web Pieces Retro in France) you'll find the synchro cones for sale too.
    Thanks JW, they do have enrergiser rings on the web site and 3 different types...1 for first gear, 1 for second and 1 for both 3rd and 4th. at the knockout price of 134euro for a set of 4....ouch

  4. #4
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    I have a motorbike mechanic mate who has rebuild Renault gearboxes in the past and can sort out a rebuild.

    Does anyone know where I can get a manual for a 330 gearbox online?

  5. #5
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    1/2 synchro ring 0428 406 100
    3/4 synchro ring 0427 521 900 superseded by 0428 756 800

    Carrier bearing seals 0855 181 100 (36 x 62 x 7)
    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
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  6. #6
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    Thanks Simon, what would we do without you.

  7. #7
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    Meca parts have a set of 5 rings for 97.92 euro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    1/2 synchro ring 0428 406 100
    3/4 synchro ring 0427 521 900 superseded by 0428 756 800

    Carrier bearing seals 0855 181 100 (36 x 62 x 7)
    Thanks Simon. Good to have those numbers recorded!

    I have this vague feeling (rather, I'm feeling vague!) about the synchro cones - do you know whether the split case gearboxes all have the same ones?

    Regards
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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  9. #9
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    Are you sitting comfortably ?
    Pre '68 renault split case boxes have 7 degree cones.
    Post '68 are 6 degree 40 minute cones.
    Without wanting to go into the protectionism conspiracy theory you need to know which type you have. Identification is fairly easy
    The early type 1st/2nd have equal sized segments all the way round 3rd/4th have no segments at all
    Late type have groups of three segments in a large then small pattern Renault state the rings are different colours as well but after 40 years in manky oil i have found they all look the same
    Some of the repros in circulation are not great quality I had a set which were supposed to fit a 353 (early type) but were not a good fit on either early or late gears and I ended up using a secondhand set culled from an old 4 speeder.
    1st gear synchro has 3 knuckles on it which 2nd gear synchro does not, so there are separate part numbers
    3rd,4th and 5th (if applicable ) are the same part
    Oil seals are easy enough to get I would suggest using R23 double lip type rather than original R21 single lip type as they hold oil a bit better
    Time for my meds
    cheers
    Steve
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dauphproto View Post
    Are you sitting comfortably ?
    Pre '68 renault split case boxes have 7 degree cones.
    Post '68 are 6 degree 40 minute cones.
    Without wanting to go into the protectionism conspiracy theory you need to know which type you have. Identification is fairly easy
    The early type 1st/2nd have equal sized segments all the way round 3rd/4th have no segments at all
    Late type have groups of three segments in a large then small pattern Renault state the rings are different colours as well but after 40 years in manky oil i have found they all look the same
    Some of the repros in circulation are not great quality I had a set which were supposed to fit a 353 (early type) but were not a good fit on either early or late gears and I ended up using a secondhand set culled from an old 4 speeder.
    1st gear synchro has 3 knuckles on it which 2nd gear synchro does not, so there are separate part numbers
    3rd,4th and 5th (if applicable ) are the same part
    Oil seals are easy enough to get I would suggest using R23 double lip type rather than original R21 single lip type as they hold oil a bit better
    Time for my meds
    cheers
    Steve
    Many thanks Steve. I had this niggling feeling that a friend in France had said there were two angles, which you have confirmed. Double strength coffee for breakfast after that description!

    So the 353 gearbox is the early type - I'll go and dig out my late R8 manual and all will become clearer now.

    Good idea re the oil seals.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  11. #11
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    This is all getting a bit hard for a novice like me, I might just have to keep driving until it breaks and then swap it for a spare...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    This is all getting a bit hard for a novice like me, I might just have to keep driving until it breaks and then swap it for a spare...
    No doubt it will break. Best to conserve these gearboxes I reckon, as one day there won't be so many lying around.

    The synchro energiser springs break and can destroy the gearbox when you least need trouble!

    Yours of course. Best of luck.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    No doubt it will break. Best to conserve these gearboxes I reckon, as one day there won't be so many lying around.

    The synchro energiser springs break and can destroy the gearbox when you least need trouble!

    Yours of course. Best of luck.



    Cheers
    I hear you JW,

    Although I do have spare gearboxes I shudder at the thought of the box destroying itself in heavy traffic of out on the freeway somewhere,

    At the least I should crack one of the cases open and see how worn things are because one never knows how many miles the box has done...It may be quiet ok..

  14. #14
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    Speaking from the point of view of a seasoned gearbox destroyer and now repairer and modifier I would say this
    If the box is quiet and shifts sweetly there is nothing wrong with it
    In standardish (under 80 bhp) use it is a very good piece of kit and will last a lifetime
    However in the approaching 50 gearboxes I have had to bits all the ones that had issues could be traced back to contaminated oil or lack of oil as the root of the problem
    If you have oil leaks I would advise repairing them,all the seals can be changed (except input) with the box in the car
    Next is drain the oil into a clean container and have a look at it. It should be the same colour as when it went in (which you may not know or remember) a trace of brass in the oil is not a big deal if the box feels good and is quiet.Bigger bits of steel shrapnel are not usually good
    If the oil looks good then refill with a good quality EP75/90 multigrade this gives the synchros less of a workout when cold and protects the crownwheel and pinion teeth when hot
    If the oil is dirty and you cant see through it check if it smells burnt,this is not easy as it smells bad in the first place,but if it does have a burnt smell then I would advise stripdown to see the source of the heat ,there will be a black bearing in there somewhere caused by lack of oil sometime in the past
    If it smells OK then it needs flushing through a couple of times, use a cheap EP80 then refill with good multigrade
    Finally (you'll be glad) another big problem is condensation,some of our cars are not used very much and are exposed to temperature and humidity variations this causes condensation to form inside the box which will not be absorbed by the oil (unlike engine oil)and lurks about looking to cause trouble
    The only way to help this is to change the oil regularly I would suggest every 2 years
    I am always amazed at the people who spend a fortune on the most expensive engine oils and change them frequently,who have never changed their gear oil or made sure they had the corect type in the box
    Happy Motoring
    Steve
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

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    Thanks for sharing the knowledge Steve,

    The 330 I am currently using is quiet as a mouse but does leak oil from all the seals, as far as shifting sweetly most of the time it does shift sweetly but occasionally it doesn't drop into top gear (4th) and needs another go. Maybe the oil needs a top up..

    Apart from that all is well and I do have spare boxes if I need them but it is reasonable to assume none of these boxes have ever been pulled down or repaired so inevitably a breakage will occur, just not in my lifetime I hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dauphproto View Post
    <snip>
    a trace of brass in the oil is not a big deal if the box feels good and is quiet.Bigger bits of steel shrapnel are not usually good
    If the oil looks good then refill with a good quality EP75/90 multigrade this gives the synchros less of a workout when cold and protects the crownwheel and pinion teeth when hot
    <snip>
    Steve
    Hello Steve, one thing that I have had suggested to me by my local engineering works (who also sell oil) is that one should make sure that one gets transaxle oil not just rear axle style EP as some of the additives in the latter attack the brass synchro rings etc in the boite.

    cheers! Peter

    P.S. I have a 66 Matra Djet which has the 329 Estafette all synchro boite de vitesses. One thing that it will be up for is a rebuild using new synchros & springs (2&3 currently weak). I think that 3&4 are R8 330 style but there is a question mark over 1&2. Know anything about these (or know anyone who knows anything)?

  17. #17
    Member dauphproto's Avatar
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    The best way to kill a gearbox is to run it Dry. The second best way is to use the wrong oil !!
    I currently run Millers Race EP 80/140 synchro multigrade. On a cold day the car will propel itself along on cold gear oil (like an automatic) when in neutral
    However when hot enough to fry chips in as it usually is at the end of a race the box is quiet and sweet I have to live with this tradeoff and warm the box carefully whenever I take the car out,SO THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR A ROAD CAR!!
    Most modern scrap does not require an Extreme pressure lubricant as it will not have a Hypoid bevel
    Putting non EP oil in may kill the pinion in a coule of thousand miles or 30 miles on the circuit
    Using Ep oils with friction modifiers (for dog boxes and LSD'S) will kill a synchro box as well
    SO Called gearbox medicine should not be used in our old renault boxes as it will do more harm than good
    Its a question of using good quality oils and of the correct type for the application modern EP multigrades are a good way of having the best of both worlds
    hope this clears it up
    cheers
    Steve
    Well if it was easy everybody would do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by dauphproto View Post
    The best way to kill a gearbox is to run it Dry. The second best way is to use the wrong oil !!
    I currently run Millers Race EP 80/140 synchro multigrade. On a cold day the car will propel itself along on cold gear oil (like an automatic) when in neutral
    However when hot enough to fry chips in as it usually is at the end of a race the box is quiet and sweet I have to live with this tradeoff and warm the box carefully whenever I take the car out,SO THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR A ROAD CAR!!
    Most modern scrap does not require an Extreme pressure lubricant as it will not have a Hypoid bevel
    Putting non EP oil in may kill the pinion in a coule of thousand miles or 30 miles on the circuit
    Using Ep oils with friction modifiers (for dog boxes and LSD'S) will kill a synchro box as well
    SO Called gearbox medicine should not be used in our old renault boxes as it will do more harm than good
    Its a question of using good quality oils and of the correct type for the application modern EP multigrades are a good way of having the best of both worlds
    hope this clears it up
    cheers
    Steve
    In the deep past I used Castrol Hypoy 90 for my 4CV then found the R8 and it specified EP 80.

    I'm using Penrite Hypoid 80W90 at the moment - does anyone out there have a alternative recommendation that I'd like to hear?

    Thanks again for the post Steve.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Out of curiosity I cracked open one of my spare 330 gearboxes for a look and so far all looks really good except for some wear on the end of the primary shaft gear pic 1. There is some sign of minor pitting on the gear teeth and I would say they are looking a bit thin.

    Ths syncro cones all look brand new as do the syncro bars, bearings and the secondary gears themselves.

    The crown wheel and pinion look new as do the carrier bearings. The speedo drive is also good.

    At this point I am tempted to close the case up and be finished with it but to keep JW happy, tomorrow I will make up a spanner to take the secondary shaft apart (partially) and check out the energiser springs.

    R10 gearboxes-021.jpgR10 gearboxes-027.jpgR10 gearboxes-028.jpgR10 gearboxes-029.jpgR10 gearboxes-031.jpgR10 gearboxes-032.jpg

  20. #20
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    John I have just removed Penrite's so called 80 from my R17 Gearbox because after about 2000 kilometres it started to crunch going between 1 and 2 when cold. I have always sworn by Castrol VMX 80 from previous experience with these gearboxes. But no Castrol close at hand so settled for Penrite. How wrong I was. I have replaced the Penrite with Castrol VMX 80 and hey presto no problem after 150 kilometres all is good again. I went on the net to check up on the various levels of Zinc and I thought Penrite was close. Interestingly in one of those CSI shows on TV the other night they found the owner of a classic truck because of the oil he dropped in the driveway. They said old vehicles needed high levels of zinc. I am very sure. Castrol VMX 80 is suitable.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    John I have just removed Penrite's so called 80 from my R17 Gearbox because after about 2000 kilometres it started to crunch going between 1 and 2 when cold. I have always sworn by Castrol VMX 80 from previous experience with these gearboxes. But no Castrol close at hand so settled for Penrite. How wrong I was. I have replaced the Penrite with Castrol VMX 80 and hey presto no problem after 150 kilometres all is good again. I went on the net to check up on the various levels of Zinc and I thought Penrite was close. Interestingly in one of those CSI shows on TV the other night they found the owner of a classic truck because of the oil he dropped in the driveway. They said old vehicles needed high levels of zinc. I am very sure. Castrol VMX 80 is suitable.
    Gee, that's interesting. Thanks very much for the information.

    The Penrite was a straight EP80 was it?

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    That is what the container said but if I remember correctly the specifications on the internet state 80 - 90.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    That is what the container said but if I remember correctly the specifications on the internet state 80 - 90.
    Actually, I think I've outsmarted myself over here (it is two hours earlier in the morning).

    I think I have Penrite Hypoid 80W90 in the 4CV, one old gearbox with pretty slow synchro, and BP Energear Easishift in the R8, given its baulking habit from first to second when cold. I bought the BP oil years ago and don't even know if it is available still.

    The 4CV needs pretty gentle handling (always has) in the gearbox department. If the rear driveshaft seals ever start leaking, I'll change the gearbox to a 289 with the 8x35 ratio and be done with it. Come to think of it, I haven't driven the 4CV since I did the gear selector seal and refilled with new oil.

    The R8 remains perfect and unbeatable in the synchro department but is a tad growly on over-run, as it has been for many years now. Again, if it gets worse after the Junee trip, maybe it will be getting time for some work.

    It's disappointing at your end given Penrite's persistent line of supporting older vehicles, isn't it. I have no idea why your gearbox would be any different from the R8 with respect to lubrication - did anything significant change in the technology?

    Thanks again for sharing the information.
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  24. #24
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    As much as I wanted to I just couldn't dismantle the secondary shaft to check the energiser springs, it's as though they didn't want anything coming loose, so I just put it back together and installed a new set of seals because the original ones were shagged.

    Now At least I know this box doesn't show very much wear in the bearings, syncro rings etc...no broken gears and hopefully it won't leak oil and should see many more years of service.

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