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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Default well I never.....

    I'm blown away.
    I never thought changing your oil could make such a difference to an engine.


    SOme of you may know I have an engine sitting on the stand ready to bolt in when I have the time to take the car off the road (and the strength in my arms to do the job without injury).

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    Because of this, I sort of let my oil change on the existing motor slip further and further behind, to the point where it got to 20k k.

    I realised there is probably another 10k km before this motor is expired, so I figured I'd beter change the oil.

    I decided to change brands from the cheap black bottle nulon to penrite, which had 'ZINK' written on its front label.
    I'd previously bought some snake oil ZDDP additive, so figured zink sounded more compatible than teflon which I believe is what nulon use as a friction modifier( hapy to be corrected if thats not the case).

    Being a bit of a fan of snake oil, I poured some weird brand of oil stripper into the donk before i drained the motor, and gave it a good 30 min drive at highway speed.

    After topping up with the 20-60 penrite, and adding a little ZDDP to the mix, The change in the car was immediately obvious. It cruised better, was quieter, the noise that I thought was the gearbox had dimminished, and all in all it felt like a fresher motor.

    On my trumpet valves, I can feel the difference between different oil products but on a car motor I'd never been aware of any difference, and only changed oils because thats what you do.

    Interestingly, my mom who is the total opposite to a car-head (she drives a white automatic hyundai) even commented that something was different and the car seemed smoother and quieter and less of a displeasure to travel in.
    I hadn't told her anything about the oil and her comments were unsolicited.

    Maybe the oil stripper made its way into a gummed up oil ring ??
    Maybe the slightly raised oil pressure is doing something. I dont pretend to know anything about how oil viscosity and recipe effect a motor so its all a guess.

    Anyway, I think I'll stick with the penrite oil from now on as its also an Australian product, and on par price wise with the Nulon.



    Jo

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! rubyalpine's Avatar
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    Yes, I do believe that different oils can make a difference.
    I can remember changing from Castrol GTX, to Duckhams (just because it was cheaper) in my R10. The motor suddenly started rattling and sounding so rough that I had to double check to see that there was oil in the sump!
    Needless to say, I drained the sump and put back GTX.

    Cheers, Henry

  3. #3
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    Interesting Joe,

    Everybody kept saying just chuck any old crap 20W50 into the Fuego they don't give a s*&t what you put in them.
    Well my opinion is that the big boys don't spend money developing these whizz bang new oils for nothing.
    Am currently sussing out what mine does with 10W50.
    Mine only gets used once a month so the 10 to me is more important that the 60 at 6k rpm you may see.

    David

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts FIVEDOOR's Avatar
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    Tappets got quite noisy when my daughter got her car back from the mechanics. Put some decent oil and the tappet noise all but disappeared.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I like Penrite oils, they just seem be of nice quality, but I couldnt really say why I think this.

    I do know i ran el cheapo Castrol GTX2 in the R21 once (usually the Shell or Valvoline was on special somewhere) and was amazed at how fast it went bad - went black twice as fast, and had all this frothy crap on it when drained.

    Ran a Nulon 20/50 the next time and that stayed clean for a while and came out normal.

    So don't really notice the good stuff in the way a tractor motor like the R21 runs as such, but sure notice when its a really crap oil!

    I use the synthetic pentrite stuff in the xsara and will in the Megane.

  6. #6
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    I remember a similar experience after putting cheap tyres on my old Suzuki. I couldn't believe how bad it felt to drive. I guess you'd expect tyres to have more of an impact than oil though. It really sounded worse, and just didn't feel right to drive, even at carpark speeds.

    I ended up replacing the front ones after 10,000k's, and keeping them as spares for the rear. My mother (who sounds similar to yours) asked what I'd done to the car, because it was so much quieter, and felt more like like a normal car to drive in.

    So I have no idea what oil was used when I had the Clio (1.4) serviced, but I am 100% sure it wouldn't have been Elf. Is it worth getting the Elf oil for a 1.4 Clio?

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! young 4 old pug's Avatar
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    I've seen two cars (307 / Clio priv) come into work with Pensh!te oil in them. Both cars lifters were rattling their brains out. The clio had its oil replaced 1 week previously. We drained the oil and replaced it with Elf oil, and after starting all top end rattles had gone.

    My experiences with pensh!te oil mean i would never ever use it in anything. Ever.


    But hey, that's my view.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon View Post
    I do know i ran el cheapo Castrol GTX2 in the R21 once (usually the Shell or Valvoline was on special somewhere) and was amazed at how fast it went bad - went black twice as fast, and had all this frothy crap on it when drained.
    Never really used Castrol stuff but the fact it went black quickly could just mean it has more/better detergents in the oil which will result in a cleaner engine in the long run (if used over multiple oil changes).

    Some people recommend using diesel oil as a less severe alternative to an oil flush as it has a higher concentration of detergents.

    Many people seem to have their favorites for one reason or another.

    I've used Valvoline DuraBlend (Semi Synthetic) for ages.

    10 or so years ago I bought some when it was on special and detected a noticeable improvement on the arse dyno and kept using it for years on my old Fuego, clocking up 300K without any engine trouble or drop in performance (despite thrashing the crap out of it).

    Several years ago I read a test preformed in Street Commodore that rated it forth in a field of 18 fully and semi synthetics...

    You can read the test here...

    http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

    Apparently the test is not all that relevant (different viscosity and no temperature etc) and is more suited to grease than oil, but is fascinating nonetheless.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Yeah I thought about that, but it didn't look or feel like good oil that had detergented (new word for the day) it's way through the motor, it just seemed degraded...

    Dunno. Maybe it was just a good detergent and a grubby motor.
    Last edited by Haakon; 20th August 2012 at 10:48 AM.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Gamma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by young 4 old pug View Post
    I've seen two cars (307 / Clio priv) come into work with Pensh!te oil in them. Both cars lifters were rattling their brains out. The clio had its oil replaced 1 week previously. We drained the oil and replaced it with Elf oil, and after starting all top end rattles had gone.

    My experiences with pensh!te oil mean i would never ever use it in anything. Ever.


    But hey, that's my view.
    I have found the complete opposite.
    I ran a 505GTi for over 300,000km on Penrite, (531,000km in total) and it was sold still in perfect running order, (no rebuild). Oil changed every 5000km.
    I will conceed that different motors will behave differently using different oils, but to dis....an entire brand is a long bow to draw.

    Then again, arguing about oils is is just like the old "Holden Vs Ford" chat....
    /// 1986 SII 505 GTI
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  11. #11
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    In regard oils for older motors there is a long dissertation relating to "our" Targa A110 and the issues with oils. New oils are not repeat one thousand times, right for the flat tappet motors. I was, heaven forbid, reading a site involved with original Minis and they now have problems with modern oils.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110 View Post
    In regard oils for older motors there is a long dissertation relating to "our" Targa A110 and the issues with oils. New oils are not repeat one thousand times, right for the flat tappet motors.
    The independent test of the different oils I linked to above used a test apparatus that seemed to fairly closely resemble the action of a flat tappet and cam arrangement which is why I thought it may be of interest here.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Any recommendations, Kiwi???

    Jo

  14. #14
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    Hopefully Frans will kick in, but the zinc content was a big issue.

  15. #15
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    For what it is worth, all 4 of my toys run flat tappets (3 Sierra 1.4s & an A series 1.3 in my Moke). All 4 have been Dyno tuned by a bloke who builds & runs many competition engines. At the time of fitting a Collier cam to the R8, my mind was focused on cam lobes & I raised the issue of oils & that of declining organic Zinc/Phosphorous levels in modern oils (catalyst fouling). I sought advice on oils & the possible use of additives to replace those levels (as Jo has done).

    He observed that the Zn/P compounds only came into effect when the oil film has failed & that the primary task was to establish & maintain that film. A very good oil should suffice & he did not recommend the additives (not bad, just pointless).

    His recommendation was an oil that he used in his competition engines in preference to even the full synthetic ester-based oils. Curiously, it is a "plain vanilla" mineral oil, albeit one designed for competition use. A supporting anecdote he advanced was that of an L34 engine in Targa Tasmania which lost all of its oil in a special stage but maintained enough of a residual film to finish the stage without concern & then continue the rally after re-oiling. The engine wasn't damaged.

    One issue is start-up. Either one pumps a light oil quickly to relevant surfaces or relies on a residual film from a heavier one that drains off less. He thought that enough of a film would remain for the cam lobes not to suffer at start up. As for bits having extra load from a running engine, my practice is to turn the motor over without ignition for around 30 secs. to get oil pressure to those surfaces. (I've had starter buttons fitted.)

    The oil he recommends? Fuchs Titan Formula 60 (25W - 60).

    cheers! Peter

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    The problems we had with the 807 motor was cam/tappet problems. The cam/lifters destroyed themselves on the 3rd day of Targa NZ.

    The ZDDP is a huge issue. It has been ommitted from oil because they damage the cataliser.

    My findings were.. stay with mineral oils for the old type engines. If it is an 807 motor add a ZDDP additive and use a motorcycle oil (4T). They have, or used to have, more zinc in because motor cycles do not have catalisers. If it is a Sierra engine, then just use oil, they don't care. I use Penrite in both my G's. That is the 20W-70 grade(plus 10). It says on the container "for use in older engines to minimise oil consumption". Race car and street car. Ross has seen a lab test result where Penrite was close to the best.

    I have "heard" that Castrol is one of the worst oils you can find. I have seen 2 independant lab tests, one of them were done in Aus, where Castrol came 2nd last and the other test last. I can give the test results when I get back home. The story goes that Castrol do not have their own wells. They buy in bulk from where ever they get the best price at that point in time. They will then add their additives but the base oil is the cheapest they could get. Then they rely on their marketing team which is very good.

    Frans.
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Shobbz's Avatar
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    I tried penrite 20w-50w fully synth at my last change.

    Very happy with it so far. Not sure what was used before though as done by dealers.

    Shobbz
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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! rubyalpine's Avatar
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    I know for sure that back in Durban (S.Africa), Castrol used to have Mobil oil delivered by the truck load to their depot, where they blended it with "liquid tungsten" and other additives. I dont believe there are any Castrol oil wells or oil refineries anywhere.
    Despite this, I have always used Castrol GTX (since the 60's) and even with some 7000 rpm driving, I have never suffered any bearing or camshaft damage to any of my R10's.

    Cheers,
    Henry
    Last edited by rubyalpine; 21st August 2012 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Mistake!

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    I found the magazine and here are the results of the 10 oils that have been tested.

    1st was Amsoil, 2ndBP Visco 5000, 3rd and 4th Mobil 1, 5th Hi-Tec HTO, 6th Shell Helix Ultra, 7th Royal Purple, 8th Castrol R, 9th CastrolSLX, 10th Torco.

    Castrol didn't fare that well as one would expect when you see the marketing.

    Frans.
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    Young enough to do it anyway.

  20. #20
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    There must be thousands of links to low zinc in oils on the web.
    Talking to quite a few of the oil techs out there they seem to be based around the yanks and their crap oils as required by the US EPA.
    I follow a VW forum and they have "problems" with cams and followers with the VW 505.01 oils.
    I personally have never heard of aussie VW's loosing cams/followers.

    The same techs have said that strict saps/zinc levels are required in manadated oils ie ACEA etc.
    However, out of "the run of the mill oils", zinc levels are not mandated.
    That leaves us with 'exotics' like 25W60 0W50 40W70's. that have zinc levels up to 1800PPM.
    See below for Penrite levels:
    http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pd...Sep%202012.pdf

    I may be wrong but there may have been a discussion about (incorrect?) resurfacing of cams/followers that may have had something to do with failures?????

    How many cams have failed in non reconditioned renaults from the 60's other that that of high rpm/oil starvation that have used modern oils?

    What were the zinc levels of oils in the 60's/70's/80's and even 90's that were SOOOO much better that today?

    AND, as it would apply to this thread, how many Douvrins are there that have chewed out cams/followers?

    How can we lead this discussion to a direction that gives us relevant info not hearsay?

    I don't want to appear flippant but we need a sample size of more than 1.

    David
    Last edited by 85Fuego; 22nd August 2012 at 05:32 PM.

  21. #21
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    For those of you who are Penrite lovers - tabulated info of Penrite oils as provided by them. Here.

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