R10 Springs and Mods
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Default R10 Springs and Mods

    OK,

    So I've got the base engine sorted. Still trying to get the twin weber manifold and custom extractors sorted, but now I want to divert to suspension for a while.

    The current springs seem to be std cut down extra low, with refurbished Koni shocks. It is currently a fraction too low and I want to raise it up and put in slightly heavier rate springs. The end use is Classic Rallies (80-90% tarmac); and circuit events (100% Tarmac if I stay on track!)

    What front and rear springs do people recommend and where can I get them. Also what other mods - sway bar etc. I've had the adjustable camber done, with increased camber already.

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    What height; spring rates etc that I can use to source the right ones. I was looking at a set of front Gordini springs on mecaparts (the 225mm spring I think it is) but hoping to find something locally. And of course, they don't seem to carry any rear springs apart from the Gordini twin shock rears (do they use standard R8 springs on those?) so rears seem to be a problem from them anyhow.

    Cheers
    KB
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R10 Springs and Mods-dscn1549.jpg  
    KB


  2. #2
    Member renogade's Avatar
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    G'day,

    you should be able to ring or get in contact with king springs and they will be able to make up anything you want.

    as far as i am aware the lowered springs on mecca parts are the same diameter wire and the same number of coils just wound tighter giving a shorter hight and a firmer ride so KingSprings should be able to make them up.

    I Know KingSprings have R8 pattern on file because Peter had his r10 ones refurbished there a fue years back and they weren't very expensive.

    Don't quote me on this but i am pretty sure the twin shock rear ends and the regular ones used the same springs.
    Kind Regards
    Ryan

    61 Dauphine Gordini r10 running gear - restoration

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  3. #3
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    Given what you want to do with the beastie, I think that Frans might be your best source of advice. Why not slip him a PM?

    cheers! Peter

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    I will PM Frans for advice.
    Renograde - I contacted Kings Springs. They don't have the details on file it appears. To save others having to call, here is their reply:

    Unfortunately we do not manufacture coils for this particular vehicle,
    however we can manufacture but would require samples of your original coils.

    Also we would require the attached form to be filled with the coils.

    Approximate production time 10-12 Days.

    RRP $300.00 + GST per pair (2 coils).

    Regards ,

    Kris Tarrant

    Sales and Technical Services
    IT Manager
    KING SPRINGWORKS PTY LTD


    The form is too large at present to attach. I'll see if I can reduce it's file size and attach, but essentially it is asking to measure the cente of hub to guard height and compressed spring height in vehicle currently.
    KB


  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! keith mcelroy's Avatar
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    Default Beware!

    Hi all,
    Two years ago I ordered King springs for my Round-eye R10. I supplied all official measurements from R10 factory manuals, incl diags. the extra measurements off my (sagged) car and from my VV low km Square eye R10. In addition, I supplied the original springs as a pattern. I asked for original new specs to be replicated. I got back springs about 25mm too long, giving massive POSITIVE camber at rear. Fronts also too long but may have worked if I always had 100 plus Kg in the boot. Essentially >$400 wasted. Told tolerances of that order were to be expected.
    Only way I did my big trip North was to borrow the springs from my R8.
    Keith

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by keith mcelroy View Post
    Hi all,
    Two years ago I ordered King springs for my Round-eye R10. I supplied all official measurements from R10 factory manuals, incl diags. the extra measurements off my (sagged) car and from my VV low km Square eye R10. In addition, I supplied the original springs as a pattern. I asked for original new specs to be replicated. I got back springs about 25mm too long, giving massive POSITIVE camber at rear. Fronts also too long but may have worked if I always had 100 plus Kg in the boot. Essentially >$400 wasted. Told tolerances of that order were to be expected.
    Only way I did my big trip North was to borrow the springs from my R8.
    Keith
    Doesn't fill me with confidence.........

    I imagine there are still a fair few sets of old springs around that haven't been chopped?

    Or, as you said, maybe Mecaparts gear might be the go - they do know what they are doing and maybe you have to pay for this?
    JohnW

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  7. #7
    Member Jabin's Avatar
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    An 1967 promo picture. The rear seems to be low when new?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R10 Springs and Mods-scan0002.jpg  

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Anyone know what the standard spring rates and heights were for a Square eye?

    Kevin
    KB


  9. #9
    Member Jabin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Anyone know what the standard spring rates and heights were for a Square eye?

    Kevin
    I always assumed they were the same as the round eye.

    Number of coils: 9
    Flexibility rate: 27%
    Wire diameter: 12.3mm
    Free length for aus version; 307mm
    Length under load of 661 lbs: 227mm

    (this from the Haynes WS Manual)

    The rear RH side on my round eye is approx 8mm lower than the LH, I'll try another spring
    soon.
    Last edited by Jabin; 19th July 2012 at 10:10 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    OK,

    So I've got the base engine sorted. Still trying to get the twin weber manifold and custom extractors sorted, but now I want to divert to suspension for a while.

    The current springs seem to be std cut down extra low, with refurbished Koni shocks. It is currently a fraction too low and I want to raise it up and put in slightly heavier rate springs. The end use is Classic Rallies (80-90% tarmac); and circuit events (100% Tarmac if I stay on track!)

    What front and rear springs do people recommend and where can I get them. Also what other mods - sway bar etc. I've had the adjustable camber done, with increased camber already.

    What height; spring rates etc that I can use to source the right ones. I was looking at a set of front Gordini springs on mecaparts (the 225mm spring I think it is) but hoping to find something locally. And of course, they don't seem to carry any rear springs apart from the Gordini twin shock rears (do they use standard R8 springs on those?) so rears seem to be a problem from them anyhow.

    Cheers
    KB

    ok, some further thoughts:

    First, a cut down spring is already operating at a higher rate than normal. Getting a set of good standard ones & lopping one coil (& flattening the coil base again to seat properly) might be as good an option as anything else.
    Second, if spring height is a problem, then one could always fit the smallest (113 mm as I recall) of the alloy beneath-spring spacers that are sometimes fitted for rough road rallies but could suit your purpose.
    Third, I'd consider a transverse leaf camber compensator; I, at least, am persuaded of their merits on my 4cv& my R8. There's an old thread where I picture my setup. There's also an extended dialogue on the theory of them. Even with your presumed fitting of shorter droop straps, they are still worth it.

    cheers! Peter

  11. #11
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    you mentioned sway bars - don't put a rear sway bar on , tried that on my old square eye and it turned it into a fully sik drift machine . scarey

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Frans' advice was to fit a 25mm Front sway bar and stiffer rear springs; or a double original sway bar setup at the front.

    KB
    KB


  13. #13
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    Back when My Renault Floride still had Floride suspension it was badly sagged and was like driving a boat ...so I took it to pedders and they took all the critical measurements and has a full set of springs made at Kings Springs and the result was nothing less than perfect.

    So the option for you might be to take it the whole car to Pedders and let them measure the heigts and spring lengths with their own gear and know how...it worked for me.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Back when My Renault Floride still had Floride suspension it was badly sagged and was like driving a boat ...so I took it to pedders and they took all the critical measurements and has a full set of springs made at Kings Springs and the result was nothing less than perfect.

    So the option for you might be to take it the whole car to Pedders and let them measure the heigts and spring lengths with their own gear and know how...it worked for me.
    I'm starting to think that. There is an agent for Kings Springs not far (~20mins) away called Wholesale Suspension who refurbed the Koni's for me. King Springs recommend you take the completed form and the sample springs to an agent to be sent to them anyhow so I may as well get them to help sort it I think.
    KB
    KB


  15. #15
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Default R10 Koni Shocks !!!

    Not wanting to Hi-Jack the thread, but who are the main agents for Koni in the east, and do they still have for the R10 front and rear?????

    Thanks,
    Ray geckoeng

    Think Old, But Run Modern !!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    Not wanting to Hi-Jack the thread, but who are the main agents for Koni in the east, and do they still have for the R10 front and rear?????

    Thanks,
    I can't remember the distributor (did once know) but when I bought for my R10-suspended 4CV, the advice was to use R8G (classic red) for front & rear. (Just one per side for the rear obviously.) There was some fiddling of the rears' mounts & the dustcovers had to come off but this was all minor & they work well. One retail outlet is/was Bursons & buying through them was the cheapest I could manage to find in 0Z.
    cheers.' Peter

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Hi Ray,
    I think the distributor is based in Albury/Wodonga of all places.
    Wholesale suspension were able to order new classic reds in, but due to the cost I chose to have them refurbish the older ones I already had.

    I haven't tried Lovells yet, but if I draw a blank there, I will definitely try wholesale for some kings springs and see how I go for a front sway bar of 25mm.

    I also see some one is now about to start remanufacture of KMac gear too.

    KB
    KB


  18. #18
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Hi Ray,
    I think the distributor is based in Albury/Wodonga of all places.
    Wholesale suspension were able to order new classic reds in, but due to the cost I chose to have them refurbish the older ones I already had.

    I haven't tried Lovells yet, but if I draw a blank there, I will definitely try wholesale for some kings springs and see how I go for a front sway bar of 25mm.

    I also see some one is now about to start remanufacture of KMac gear too.

    KB
    Albury does ring a bell, as does Proven Products.

    Another thought is that adjustable Spax shockers seem to be available in UK if anyone is interested at www.spaxdirect.com and on ebay France (direct would have to be easier you'd think).

    Cheers

    John
    JohnW

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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Default Back Suspension !!

    As I have never played much with 4 shock rear suspensions, does anybody have experience with interchange ability of G shock to the mono shock. Are they the same size (lengths)????

    Thanks,
    Ray geckoeng

    Think Old, But Run Modern !!

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    As I have never played much with 4 shock rear suspensions, does anybody have experience with interchange ability of G shock to the mono shock. Are they the same size (lengths)????

    Thanks,
    Give Proven Products a call (I'm sure JohnW is right about the name). When I enquired at Wholesale they looked in their book and I think the classic red listed for the R8 is also the R8G listing. Also I asked previously whether the R8 spring and the R8G were the same length and Renograde reminded me that they are. If you look at Mecaparts they sell a kit to convert "std" 8 rear cross member into a Gordini piece. Colliers used to do much the same thing themselves. Worthwhile to look just to see the pic of how they do it. They also have a variety of spring lengths for R8G and quote the free length but annoyingly, no other specs or poundage etc.
    KB


  21. #21
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    Our Koni expert, now migrated to Oz, who was from South Africa did a bit of research for me. His reckoning was the 4 shocks were only because they could not get the needed rating at the time, which was now easy.

  22. #22
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwia110 View Post
    Our Koni expert, now migrated to Oz, who was from South Africa did a bit of research for me. His reckoning was the 4 shocks were only because they could not get the needed rating at the time, which was now easy.
    I've always assumed that is why they did it. Why add complexity and unsprung weight otherwise? Yours is the first hint I've read of that.

    Are you saying the "new" Konis or something similar might now be equivalent in damping to two of the old ones?

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    I also see some one is now about to start remanufacture of KMac gear too.

    KMac used to manufacture a rear sway bar for the R8/10, I've no idea why. Possibly it must have been made with the factory stock tyre pressures in mind, with the purpose of stiffening the rear to reduce the initial understeer from the soft tyres.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    KMac used to manufacture a rear sway bar for the R8/10, I've no idea why. Possibly it must have been made with the factory stock tyre pressures in mind, with the purpose of stiffening the rear to reduce the initial understeer from the soft tyres.
    Easier to pump up the tyres then! I can't remember when I last had my tyres as low in pressure as teh factory recommendation, except by accident.
    JohnW

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Also I asked previously whether the R8 spring and the R8G were the same length and Renograde reminded me that they are.
    I've no idea about suspension modifications, my talent runs out after checking tyre pressures. The figures given for Renault springs appear to be, at best, vague and ambiguous. From the R10 parts catalogue, there appear to be only two types of rear springs used, early and late, with no difference for road type. But they would have to be different for the 8G and R10, as both cars have different ride heights (the 8G being much lower, even with the 10mm spring spacers).

    FWIW:

    8G rear spring details
    Part number 04283538, source PR837 final edition 5/1970.

    Wire diameter, 12.3mm
    Inside diameter, 76.4mm
    Flexibility rate, 24%
    Free length (for information), 275mm
    Length under load of 300kg, 206mm
    Source, MR133 11/1966

    R10 spring details
    Part number, 04285240 (R1190 to oval plate 9650 excluding 9578 - 9600)
    Part number, 04287853 (R1190 oval plate 9651 onwards and R1192)
    Source, PR832, final edition 12/1972

    Wire diameter, 12.3mm
    Outside diameter, 76.4mm
    Flexibility rate, 27%
    Free length (for information), 307mm
    Length under load of 300kg, 227m
    No of effective coils, 9
    Source, MR131 5/1967

    There may be a later edition of the MR131, but at least there are no other amended details for the R10 rear springs in MR131 Amendment 4 dated 7/1970.
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