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Thread: Ross's new Dauphine Racing Car

  1. #176
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Thinking about this photo, this is the exact corner I crashed the old Dauphine on 8 years ago.
    I havent done this hillclimb since so understandably I was taking it a bit easy this year.

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    Ross:

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  2. #177
    I might be slow... DRTDVL's Avatar
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    not sure if you can access this but here is your video's: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...4302050&type=3

    Click the HD in the bottom right of the video to make it watchable...

    also... sorry about the locals...

  3. #178
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    Car looks fantastic Ross
    You were getting quicker the upshift was earlier each time
    If you have any spare enthusiasm left can you put some in a box and send it to me
    I have come to a complete standstill here and have decided to leave it rather than force myself to work on it as that is a great way to spoil all the hard work so far
    cheers
    Steve
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  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    I was taking it a bit easy this year.
    It looks brilliant in that pic! And I bet you did a PB even though you were supposedly taking it easier.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Yes, brilliant. The car looks so good, it has to be good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTDVL View Post
    Nah! Not enough -ve at the rear :-))

  7. #182
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTDVL View Post
    not sure if you can access this but here is your video's: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...4302050&type=3

    Click the HD in the bottom right of the video to make it watchable...

    also... sorry about the locals...
    Thanks again Heath.
    Ross:

    1989 Alpine GTA Twin Turbo
    1963 Renault R8
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    1967 NSU Prinz 1200TT
    1989 Peugeot 205 GTi

  8. #183
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    It looks brilliant in that pic! And I bet you did a PB even though you were supposedly taking it easier.
    No half a second off my best time with the old Dauphine, but that was after years of development, and many hundreds of racing kilometers so I was pushing very hard, too hard as it turned out.

    This new car has the potential to be much faster, and in the last couple of events it has proved that, just need the driver to improve a lot.
    Ross:

    1989 Alpine GTA Twin Turbo
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  9. #184
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    car looks fantastic and the sound is great, enjoy every moment.
    best wishes from Romania

  10. #185
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Default Wheel Alignment

    Years ago when I raced my old Dauphine I had a guy who used to do my wheel alignments. He was one of those guys that didnt care how long it took he just wanted to get it right. It made a huge improvement to the handing of the car.

    Shortly after getting the new race car I had the alignment done but at a new place (the guy I used to use has gone out of business, I wonder why). Even though I had booked it in they were busy so the whole job was done in a big rush.

    The new car is a much different beast in the handling department with the wide rubber at the back and I am still getting used to it however I am lacking a bit of confidence in the very fast corners and I wonder if its down to the alignment.

    This new guy insisted on setting up the rear wheels with zero toe in and wanted to set up the front with toe out. After questioning he set up the front with a slight bit of toe in. I cant remenber the settings of the old car but Im reasonably sure it was always adjusted with a bit of toe in on the rear wheels.

    Has anyone got any advice/experience with alignment in a rear engined race car?

    Thanks
    Ross:

    1989 Alpine GTA Twin Turbo
    1963 Renault R8
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  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    Years ago when I raced my old Dauphine I had a guy who used to do my wheel alignments. He was one of those guys that didnt care how long it took he just wanted to get it right. It made a huge improvement to the handing of the car.

    Shortly after getting the new race car I had the alignment done but at a new place (the guy I used to use has gone out of business, I wonder why). Even though I had booked it in they were busy so the whole job was done in a big rush.

    The new car is a much different beast in the handling department with the wide rubber at the back and I am still getting used to it however I am lacking a bit of confidence in the very fast corners and I wonder if its down to the alignment.

    This new guy insisted on setting up the rear wheels with zero toe in and wanted to set up the front with toe out. After questioning he set up the front with a slight bit of toe in. I cant remenber the settings of the old car but Im reasonably sure it was always adjusted with a bit of toe in on the rear wheels.

    Has anyone got any advice/experience with alignment in a rear engined race car?

    Thanks
    Hi Ross

    I do my own, I made up an over sized speed brace with adjustable ends to measure the difference in toe and I have a Replex camber/castor gauge I got off fleabay.

    Do you have a printout of the wheel alignment specs so that you can check the guys work?

    I can't help you with what your specs should be, but I would say if it doesn't feel right something is amiss somewhere.

    These specs are from an R10 manual that I have.

    Front :

    Castor 9deg +_ 2 deg
    Camber 1 2/3 deg
    Toe 0.080" toe-in to 0.040" toe-out. Zero preferred

    Rear:

    The manual says parallel so I think it means zero toe.
    But I would think you would need 2 to 3 deg of camber, negative of course.
    Regards Col

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  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    <snip>This new guy insisted on setting up the rear wheels with zero toe in and wanted to set up the front with toe out. After questioning he set up the front with a slight bit of toe in. I cant remenber the settings of the old car but Im reasonably sure it was always adjusted with a bit of toe in on the rear wheels.

    Has anyone got any advice/experience with alignment in a rear engined race car?

    Thanks
    Some comments:

    Front alignment:
    Usual deal is to give it a mm or so of toe-in on the grounds that, if there's any compliance in the wishbone bushes, it will tend to drag back to parallel as the front is pushed along the road. Other things being equal, the more the residual dynamic toe-in, the more it will be eager, perhaps over-eager, to turn in. If you had static toe-out, it would drag dynamically to more toe-out & be a bit sluggish to turn in (and chop out the inner edges). I think that you're right & he's wrong.

    Rear alignment:
    First, a constraint is the trunnion bushes/bearings. These would tend to keep things at zero unless worn but they usually have slop (one reason for the semi-trailing toe-control arms of R8s et c.). If you set it at anything but zero, then these bushes/bearings are stressed. That said, if there's any slop in the system allowing movement, then the rear will tend to pull into toe-in on acceleration and drag back to toe out on deceleration. Rear toe-out means a tendency to oversteer & that is a tendency exacerbated by the weight transfer produced by lift-off. So, to avoid or lessen this, one might want the rears set statically to some toe-in so that, at worst, they drag back to zero.

    You don't mention the circumstances of your disquiet but if it is at all connected with a "flighty" tail on any lift-off, then one good response (among the usual other candidates) might well be to have a bit of static rear toe-in.

    All good clean fun! Peter

    p.s. to Col: As noted earlier, I rather think that Ross already has >3į of -ve camber at the rear!
    Last edited by 4cvg; 15th February 2014 at 12:29 AM.

  13. #188
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    Thanks Peter

    Thats a really good summary, it makes good sense

    I think I will re-adjust the rear with a little static toe in and see how that goes.
    Ross:

    1989 Alpine GTA Twin Turbo
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  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross View Post
    Thanks Peter

    Thats a really good summary, it makes good sense

    I think I will re-adjust the rear with a little static toe in and see how that goes.
    I'll be curious to hear what resulted.

    Incidentally, what is the (static) -ve camber at the rear? I surmised that the cornering shot showed greater dynamic -ve camber from accelerative squat but wondered what the static figure was.

    Finally, what did happen about your zero-roll rear and its adjustment (or abandonment)?

    cheers! Peter

  15. #190
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    I have an event this weekend, a hillclimb, so if I get time on Saturday I will make the adjustment and report on the result.

    Not sure what the camber figure was, havent measured it, but it was too much as the outsides of the rear tyres were not wearing at all. So I have been raising the ride height in stages to try and get the whole tyre working. With the old Dauphine and its 175 tyres they were fine with lots of negative, they wore very evenly, but with the wide rubber on this one (235) its very different.

    I have been thinking about raising the gearbox in the cross member also to get rid of some more negitive, anyone tried this?

    The zero roll rear end has been shelved for now, at the moment there are a few other things that need sorting, the main one being the driver.
    Ross:

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  16. #191
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    Ross,
    I have been having a bit of a think and it would help that process were I to know a bit more about your set-up; to wit:
    -what size wheels & tyres do you have front & rear? (so, say, rears 235/45 on 8x13 rims, or whatever)
    - what elements of your set-up (spring rate, damper rebound, damper compression, ride height, anti-roll bar stiffness etc.) do you have readily adjustable (short of "remove & replace") at front & rear?

    cheers! Peter

  17. #192
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    Ross, have a look at the A110 rear in pics 50 & 51 in the Schafer thread.
    cheers! Peter

  18. #193
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    Ross
    You are correct about the tyre reading it will tell you most of what you want to know .Raising the car to remove negative will raise the roll centre which will help to undo your improvements,but it is a balancing act
    As for toe in on the rear Always make sure the engine is higher than the box,that is to say if you draw a line along the crankshaft it should have very slight downrake high at the back and low at the front of the box this will induce roll toe in on corners. If you put the motor lower than the box it induced roll toe out (frightening and dangerous) been there done that
    Best to imagine the motor and box out of the car, if you stood the thing on its end then the suspension movement would not be up and down but back and forth,so consider the steering effect this puts on and you will see what I am on about
    These cars are all very affected by steering changes,they have a fair bit of bumpsteer at the front which is worth getting rid of
    My 8 now has only 30 thou of bumpsteer across a 4" travel 2" up and down from ride height it is amazing what can be done by moving the trackrodends up.I have now drilled them parallel and use rod ends as trackrodends .This has made my car much more benign even with a 2.2:1 rack
    Fred Puhn's book "how to make your car handle" is a great read as it is so old it covers swing axles and the things that can be done it covers Zero roll stiffness devices on formula Vee's Z bars and camber compensators and a bumpsteer gauge with nails and cinderblocks
    Remember if you make any breakthroughs tell us other hackers it's a long slow road
    cheers
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  19. #194
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Thanks Guys

    Peter I will get all the specs and post them up. Yes I saw the pics of the A110, setup for the showroom rather than the race track I think.

    Dauphproto thanks for the info, makes sense about the angle of the engine/gearbox, I will do some measuring. Yes I have Fred Puhn's book and use it a lot.

    More to come.
    Ross:

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  20. #195
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    So last weekend went well. After the comments on here last week I adjusted the toe on the rear wheels by one hex (toe in) before the event. It seemed to make a difference for the better, the rear end felt planted.

    I also did a very quick measurement on engine/gearbox angle, I put a level on the rocker cover, and it was dead level so I assume the crank angle would also be about level.

    In car video link below

    Otaua Hillclimb Feb 2014 - YouTube

    I was pleased with the results, 5th overall (out of 18), 1st in class, just beaten by a Honda s2000 powered corolla and just beat a rotary powered 323.
    Ross:

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  21. #196
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    glad things have panned out

    I pine for the novel zero roll-stiffness rear though :-)

    cheers! peter

  22. #197
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    Great video. Love the sound.

    Thanks.
    JohnW

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  23. #198
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    Very cool video Ross, I can see You really enjoyed that, well done

    Harry
    REAR ENGINES IS LIFE!

  24. #199
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    Great job, Ross. Need to see some picture of the whole car, but for now I would say ditch those black and white stripes (unless they're go fast stripes).
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 7th March 2014 at 08:26 PM.
    ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

    Das computermachine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitssparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken bei das dummkopfen. Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets-relaxen und watch das blinkenlights.

  25. #200
    Fellow Frogger! Ross's Avatar
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    Thanks Guys

    Harry yes I did enjoy that day, Ive always liked that bit of road, I did it back in 2005 in the old Dauphine, I was 4 seconds quicker this time, huge improvement.

    Schilitzaugen there are some photos of the car one page back.
    Ross:

    1989 Alpine GTA Twin Turbo
    1963 Renault R8
    1996 Peugeot 106 S16
    1967 NSU Prinz 1200TT
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