GonzJRFuego - No dizzy spin
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon11 GonzJRFuego - No dizzy spin

    Anyone had this happen? No sooner has Fandango got new engine mounts in but the GonzFuego now won't go. It seems there's plenty of spark and fuel but he's reporting no movement from the dizzy. How tough is it to fix this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gonz View Post
    Anyone had this happen? No sooner has Fandango got new engine mounts in but the GonzFuego now won't go. It seems there's plenty of spark and fuel but he's reporting no movement from the dizzy. How tough is it to fix this?
    How does it have good spark? At the coil end?

    If the dizzy shaft has snapped then you need a new dizzy. It would be very odd for a Fuego dizzy to snap (well I've never heard of it) as it bears no real load. It just spins although I suppose the shaft does takes up any walking load at the drive gear..

    It hasn't snapped a cam belt has it?

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon9 Belt maybe?

    Thanks for the quick reply. My only dizzy experience is with an 83 Commodore and that was a mechanical connection via a short worm drive on the bottom end of the shaft working against the camshaft. I suppose a belt could be part of this setup in the Fuego. I'll try to dig up some relevant technical notes but my study is currently a bombsite. Any more insights?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gonz View Post
    Thanks for the quick reply. My only dizzy experience is with an 83 Commodore and that was a mechanical connection via a short worm drive on the bottom end of the shaft working against the camshaft. I suppose a belt could be part of this setup in the Fuego. I'll try to dig up some relevant technical notes but my study is currently a bombsite. Any more insights?
    Oh, I should've asked, is it a power steer Fuego or is it a manual steer with the dizzy hanging off the back of the cam shaft?

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon9 Power steering

    Power steering, with the dizzy low on the left under the carby.
    Frustrating trying to help him. He stresses and clams up, leaving the car stranded on the street and not providing a decent look at the problem.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    It hasn't snapped a cam belt has it?
    That was my first thought.
    Ask him to pull the oil filler cap off and have some one try and start the car whilst watching the cams and lifters move.
    If no movement is seen, the crank has sheered some teeth off the timing belt and is spinning freely.
    You will still get timed spark off the coil as that is timed off the flywheel, but there will be no dizzy and no cam movement.

    Jo

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon9 Cambelt?

    Thanks, Jo. He's packing tools into his Mum's SEAT to go by the wreckers tomorrow and steal everything he can find off a silver Fuego out there. Still seems like back-to-front thinking to me but....oh well, he's in a hurry (and increasingly disappointed with the car).

    -----------------

    Final determination for tonight: I recall getting a new belt with the car when I bought it in 2002. Looks like it might finally get fitted! I imagine that if the fix is that quick, it may get slowed by some timing adjustment procedure!

    In any case, before heading off to U-Pull-It, he'll take a look for cam movement. I think I know what Friday night looks like now.
    Last edited by The Gonz; 4th February 2011 at 12:50 AM.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts cav91's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gonz View Post
    Thanks, Jo. He's packing tools into his Mum's SEAT to go by the wreckers tomorrow and steal everything he can find off a silver Fuego out there. Still seems like back-to-front thinking to me but....oh well, he's in a hurry (and increasingly disappointed with the car).

    -----------------

    Final determination for tonight: I recall getting a new belt with the car when I bought it in 2002. Looks like it might finally get fitted! I imagine that if the fix is that quick, it may get slowed by some timing adjustment procedure!

    In any case, before heading off to U-Pull-It, he'll take a look for cam movement. I think I know what Friday night looks like now.
    If the cam belt is stuffed, it might not be easy as you think!
    I'm not sure about fuego's but i think it would have bent some valves. Which means the head need to come off and new valves polished head etc. Then put back together with new head gasket and manifold gaskets. (BIG JOB) but its not to bad to change the head on a fuego!
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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gonz View Post
    Final determination for tonight: I recall getting a new belt with the car when I bought it in 2002. Looks like it might finally get fitted!

    It was probably due to be fitted back then.


    Jo

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon10 Belt teeth stripped

    Dead on the money. The crank pulley stripped belt teeth and spun freely, leaving the other pulleys doing nothing, including the dizzy. The good news is that this "according to Jr" happened at idle speed and the engine simply stalled quietly.

    We're now trying to find piston 1 TDC firing position, but all we see with the pulleys still fitted is a big round hole in the inner wall of the crank pulley. Is this TDC if aligned to top?

    -------

    Oh well, in the absence of any quick advice, we took a punt and cranked the engine with the starter with the central ignition lead off. It sounded tame enough through 3 or 4 revolutions so we're slapping it all together again for a fuelled start.
    Last edited by The Gonz; 4th February 2011 at 07:53 PM.

  11. #11
    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    I also had a 'phew' moment when my cambelt snapped with no load on it and luckily sustained absolutely no damage! Some of us are just born lucky
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    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon9 Luck :)

    Nice to hear an example of no damage, Di. Our quick try at turning it over didn't achieve a lot. We're still stuck trying to work out what TDC is at the flywheel. There appears to be no special mark anywhere in the cycle. Any better knowledge out there?

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    no doubt one of the fuego owners will revert with the location of the timing mark, but i just wanted to add that no bent valves is not generally luck, but due to the fact that some motors are constructed in a way that a fully open valve still cant touch the piston head, and therefore a broken timing belt cannot do damage.

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    no doubt one of the fuego owners will revert with the location of the timing mark, but i just wanted to add that no bent valves is not generally luck, but due to the fact that some motors are constructed in a way that a fully open valve still cant touch the piston head, and therefore a broken timing belt cannot do damage.
    Luck is everything on a fuego. It is not a free spinning donk, so valve damage is likely.
    Having said that, the worst it got when mine went was a slight tick on start up which disappeared when hot.


    I'm not sure how you are meant to do it, I never bothered to find out the correct way, but I time my fuego's without using the marks, the bush way. Takes a few minutes to set up, and then an hour to check to be sure before bolting up.

    I remove spark plug 1, closest to the flywheel, stick a screw driver or something gentle down the hole and by rotating the crank, find by feel where TDC cyl 1 is. There will be a mark that confirms maybe, but I'll paint pen the flywheel..

    Then I rotate the cam until both in and out of cyl one are lifted This is roughly timed now.

    Having a book which tells where the valves open in the cycle, I can check it all by rotating by hand and make sure it is spot on and that the valves open at the right place in the cycle.
    Next I need to time the dizzy, not an issue on a non PS fuego.
    This sprocket can be very randomly placed on the belt but it actualy doesn't matter to me or the motor as long as when the motor spins around to cyl1 TDC power stroke (no valves open) the dizzi rotor is facing cyl 1 lead and the order of the next 3 leads follows the firing order.
    It wont matter one bit if that cyl1 lead is in a different spot than it was, as long as on the power stoke it will transfer spark to cyl 1.

    I'm sure there is a propper way to do this job, but I have never been bothered to learn it as the bush way is just so damn easy.

    The hardest part of the job is sticking the belt cover back on without leaving any washers or sleeves off and the cover rubs on the belt.


    Jo

    PS dont use a 9 year old timeing belt. Buy a new one.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon9

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    I remove spark plug 1, closest to the flywheel, stick a screw driver or something gentle down the hole and by rotating the crank, find by feel where TDC cyl 1 is. There will be a mark that confirms maybe, but I'll paint pen the flywheel..Then I rotate the cam until both in and out of cyl one are lifted This is roughly timed now.
    Thanks, Jo. I like your good sense approach. Now that you raise the notion of the two different strokes (valves closed v valves open) is TDC valid for both or can we be 180 degrees out if our rocker cover is still on?

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    TDC refers to the piston/crank.
    The piston has two tdc's on a single stroke of the 4 stroke, so the bottom end does two revs for the cams to do one revolution.

    There is no difference to the crank between TDC intake stroke and tdc fire/power stroke.
    TDC is TDC so there is no orientation for setting that as such.

    What becomes critical is that the dizzy is timed on the right side of the stroke, or you will get a spark just as the cyl is filling with fuel, which is also the reason why when you bugger up your plug leads it backfires through the inlet manifold.

    You cant get the dizzy wrong on a non PS, because the dizzy is bolted through to the cam shaft and is therefore locked in unison with the head, but on the ps model the dizzy is powered from its own wheel on the belt and can be reset very wrong.


    I'd probably suggest you pull the covers and spark plugs off, and with a spanner on the crank and another on the cam, carefully try and get the cam timing back to how it should be, with cyl one exhaust and inlet open at TDC,
    AND
    the rotor button of the dizzy pointing 180 degrees off spark plug lead 1.
    Bear in mind being an interference motor the cyl might hit the valves which is why you do it slowly by hand with no plugs, so you can feel this. IF you are a gorilla with no feel, be carefull.


    I'll bet if you do this, you'll see some type of obvious pattern on the timing cogs, even if its the marks from the last guy who changed the belts.

    To get it all spot on,read the valve opening and closing times in the haynes book of lies to check everything is opening and closing at the right time. Its not that hard to get right. I've never got it wrong from memory, but I've checked it 20 times before I put it back together.


    I"ll repeat the important bit. (always always referring to cyl 1 nearest the flywheel)

    Time the cam by eye as suggested and get it right.

    Then check that at TDC firing stroke (no valve opening) the dizzy rotor button is facing no 1 cyl dizzy cap location.

    Jo

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Default Notes and Errata

    Thanks, all. We're taking a pizza break while Mrs Gonz drives off to borrow a 16mm sparkplug socket. The unijointed t-handle type we have won't budge it even when it's bending out of shape.

    Another point is that the spare timing belt we had was actually an alternator belt. Fandango sourced the replacement directly from the Fuego in the wrecker's yard so I think he'll be buying a new new one quite soon enough.

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Default Untermediate cog

    I'm really confused. Here's what I know...

    The crank spins once for every half cycle (2 strokes) - unit speed
    The cams spin once for every full cycle of 4 strokes - half speeed
    The intermediate is doing its own unreadable thing so long as...
    The distrubutor is spinning at the same rate as the cams - half speed.

    This means the crank is busy working twice as fast as the other two in order to provide a non-combustion stroke-pair for each cylinder.

    The other two work at the same rate. If I focus on the bang stroke alone, this says that the distributor and cams are working at the same rate to coordinate a nice closure of valves for the bang to happen.

    I have no trouble with the suck-squeeze-bang-blow 4-stroke concept but I see that the intermediate appears to fail to align in any meaningful way. In fact, the manual I'm reading requiring alignment of the cam and intermediate cogs together appears to provide no value - it's all about where the rotor is at the time.

    So, while I've got cam and crank aligned, I'm either spot on or 180 out - either way, no valve damage and I can flip to correct. However, unless I ignore the intermediate and work with the rotor, I'm liable to get blowback no matter what I try.

    What have I got wrong?

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon10 Revvvvvvvv

    Well, it seems maybe not a lot because ignoring the intermediate was our last big fix.

    We went with lining up the crank and cam as per our original liquid paper mark a la TDC peek through the sparkplug hole and then went with the rotor pointing in the 7:30 position (given our no 1 lead was on the 1:30 post).

    ...so, Jo, your detail makes a lot of sense and even more once we heard the GonzFuego roar into life.

  20. #20
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Oh yeah - the intermediate has its own timing mark. You turn the pulley until the rotor button is pointing at the lead for the number 1 spark plug.

    IIRC the pulley mark is aligned with the 11mm bolt directly above the pulley. This pulley turns slower than crank speed, but not an even half speed - it is further geared down by the spiral gear to give half crank speed to the distributor.

    I'm not sure why you would try to time it all up any other way than using the marks provided...?
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  21. #21
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Gonz View Post

    ...so, Jo, your detail makes a lot of sense and even more once we heard the GonzFuego roar into life.
    Woohoo.!!!


    Looks like you got it right or double wrong so it cancelled out.
    Well done.

    Jo

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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post

    [...]

    I'm sure there is a propper way to do this job, but I have never been bothered to learn it as the bush way is just so damn easy.
    The bush way or not, that is exactly the logical way and the right way to do it, Jo. And indeed, like anything with logic, is damn easy.

    The other one (with reference points, etc.) is the parrot way for people who don't want to understand how the engine works. Again you are living proof that logic is ever reliable while memory can only get one so far (learnt from calculus teacher in 11th grade).

    Irrelevant trivia: I think engine where valves interfere with piston are called interference engines whilst the others are (no prize for guessing) non-interference. That's what you get from a nation with no imagination (english?), don't blame me.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon10 From First Principles

    I call that 'solutions derived from first principles', which is why I labour to understand what's going on before following anything in a manual.

    I can't recite anything but the first 20 elements in the periodic table and the resisitor colour code. The rest I work out from scratch every time. That includes the radar range equations and some trigonometry I apply to odd shaped renovations.

    If I can't work it out, I ask people like Ken and Jo because they've got the experience and 'the touch'.

    I just watched Fandango drive off in the Fuego, gingerly (which is good to see for a change) with no tapping or smoke. In fact, the exhaust looks clean, which is better than I've seen lately.

    It gets no better than that!

    Thanks, fellow Froggers.

    PS. Fandango's faith in a Fuego future is restored and huge credit goes to Aussie Froggers. Now he's asking whether the head on the non-PS Fuego at the wrecker's is a match for his - seems he wants to invest. I can't see why it wouldn't match. Any experience on that?

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    That's great news Gonz, especially since it's restored your son's faith in the marque.


    Try for a R20 engine if you can, they are higher compression and go like stink when tuned right. My S2 car was very rapid for a measly 2L 8v donk in a medium-large car.
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts The Gonz's Avatar
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    Icon10 Head Match?

    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY View Post
    Try for a R20 engine if you can...
    You mean a complete engine replacement? I was just asking about spare parts for the existing donk - will the non-PS head still fit?

    Interesting notion swapping something else there, though.

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