Problem regarding sale of Megane
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  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default Problem regarding sale of Megane

    Hi AussieFrogs.

    If you want to skip the long story, my question is as follows:

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    Does the car computer log events (such as errors etc) against a date or odometer reading? Can a renault mechanic determine when something dodgy happened to the car based on the computer report?

    If you want to read my story, here it is.

    I am the former owner of a 2004 Renault Megane Privilege. I bought this car privately in July and due to a change in personal circumstances decided I no longer needed it and sold it privately 2 weeks ago.

    I am in NSW and the buyer came up from TAS to purchase it, he only got around to transferring the registration last Friday and as it was an interstate transfer it required a roadworthy check be completed. The new owner has now had this roadworthy check fail as it seems at some point in the car's history the driver's airbag has died and some unscrupulous individual has disconnected the airbag and the airbag computer in order to deactivate the airbag warning light. When I purchased the car I knew to check if warning lights stay on, but never thought to check that it flashes on for 3 seconds when the car is first turned on. This guys entire mechanical inspection consisted of opening the bonnet, looking at the engine then closing the bonnet. He didn't even look at the log books or service history.

    The buyer now thinks that I am the one who has intentionally stuffed around with the electrics of the car, on account of the fact that I sold it to him. He doesn't seems to consider that it may have been done by a previous owner, given that I had only owned it for 6 months it's 6 year lifespan.

    Now considering I bought the car registered and only put about 2000km on it, I never had to take it to any mechanic the entire time I owned it. Had I kept it until May when the rego needed to be renewed, I would have found out about these problems myself - assuming the guy doing the rego check noticed the problem.

    I understand that as a private seller the onus is completely on the buyer to make sure they are happy with the car, and that no warranty is ever given of implied (I even had him sign a receipt of sale that stated this), so technically he is on his own, but this arsehole is now making threats stating that until he transfers the registration across I'm still the legal owner of the car - which of course is complete bullshit.

    My question to you is whether the car computer logs events against a date or odometer reading, that way I can prove to him that all the problems with the car occurred prior to me purchasing it. I've already called the Renault mechanic in Hobart (specialist car centre) who confirmed that this fault with the airbag is correct and not a lie.

    I can totally appreciate why this guy is pissed, but just want to give some info to shut him up so he'll stop harassing me and my family.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated

    Cheers

    Simon

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    I'd have a talk to a lawyer if you aren't getting anywhere.
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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon83 View Post
    I can totally appreciate why this guy is pissed, but just want to give some info to shut him up so he'll stop harassing me and my family.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated

    Cheers

    Simon
    I'd give the new owner some info, but it would not what he wanted to hear, would start with F and finish with F and be just two little words.


    If it is your car as the guy suggests, great, go down and reclaim it and sell it again.

    Jo

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    As posted already, this is a genuine SEP (Somebody Else's Problem).

    You can go as far as pointing the new owner at parts suppliers, but thats it.

    Show him proof of your recent purchase if that will shut him up, but there is nothing a lawyer can do for him. Stress not. It will cost him more to do that than get a new airbag...

    Who the hell buys a car without at least basic checks anyway?
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    i know this is still not answering your specific question, but the reality is that no info you can give this person will, in itself, stop him doing anything. more likely he will interpret that with suspicion and go harder.

    while i understand the preference by some to be abusive back, it is more constructive to write to them politely stating that the vehicle was, like all private sales, sold as-is with no warranties, that you had no knowledge of the alleged problem anyway, that you are finding his communications with you offensive and threatening, and that he is not free to contact you again. the writing should be documented, so email is good in that regard.

    this of course does nothing to stop people like this, but it is important to set up a clear case for action if something further needs to be done which involves The Man.

    you can certainly do all that with a completely clear conscience because the whole world knows that a private buyer is 100% caveat emptor save only for title of the car.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander View Post
    i know this is still not answering your specific question, but the reality is that no info you can give this person will, in itself, stop him doing anything. more likely he will interpret that with suspicion and go harder.

    while i understand the preference by some to be abusive back, it is more constructive to write to them politely stating that the vehicle was, like all private sales, sold as-is with no warranties, that you had no knowledge of the alleged problem anyway, that you are finding his communications with you offensive and threatening, and that he is not free to contact you again. the writing should be documented, so email is good in that regard.

    this of course does nothing to stop people like this, but it is important to set up a clear case for action if something further needs to be done which involves The Man.

    you can certainly do all that with a completely clear conscience because the whole world knows that a private buyer is 100% caveat emptor save only for title of the car.
    I was trying to frame a meaningful reply, but Alexander has beaten me to it!

    The purchaser is clearly not prepared to accept that he no recourse about alleged faults with the car.

    The fact that he is trying to intimidate and hassle shows his true colours.

    So tell him to naff off, cease and desist, politely, in writing and make a note in a diary of all the times he has contacted before and if does in the future.

    That way you have ammunition if the matter escalates or he continues to hassle you and your family.

    All the best

  7. #7
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon83 View Post
    Hi AussieFrogs.

    If you want to skip the long story, my question is as follows:

    Does the car computer log events (such as errors etc) against a date or odometer reading? Can a renault mechanic determine when something dodgy happened to the car based on the computer report?

    If you want to read my story, here it is.

    I am the former owner of a 2004 Renault Megane Privilege. I bought this car privately in July and due to a change in personal circumstances decided I no longer needed it and sold it privately 2 weeks ago.

    I am in NSW and the buyer came up from TAS to purchase it, he only got around to transferring the registration last Friday and as it was an interstate transfer it required a roadworthy check be completed. The new owner has now had this roadworthy check fail as it seems at some point in the car's history the driver's airbag has died and some unscrupulous individual has disconnected the airbag and the airbag computer in order to deactivate the airbag warning light. When I purchased the car I knew to check if warning lights stay on, but never thought to check that it flashes on for 3 seconds when the car is first turned on. This guys entire mechanical inspection consisted of opening the bonnet, looking at the engine then closing the bonnet. He didn't even look at the log books or service history.

    The buyer now thinks that I am the one who has intentionally stuffed around with the electrics of the car, on account of the fact that I sold it to him. He doesn't seems to consider that it may have been done by a previous owner, given that I had only owned it for 6 months it's 6 year lifespan.

    Now considering I bought the car registered and only put about 2000km on it, I never had to take it to any mechanic the entire time I owned it. Had I kept it until May when the rego needed to be renewed, I would have found out about these problems myself - assuming the guy doing the rego check noticed the problem.

    I understand that as a private seller the onus is completely on the buyer to make sure they are happy with the car, and that no warranty is ever given of implied (I even had him sign a receipt of sale that stated this), so technically he is on his own, but this arsehole is now making threats stating that until he transfers the registration across I'm still the legal owner of the car - which of course is complete bullshit.

    My question to you is whether the car computer logs events against a date or odometer reading, that way I can prove to him that all the problems with the car occurred prior to me purchasing it. I've already called the Renault mechanic in Hobart (specialist car centre) who confirmed that this fault with the airbag is correct and not a lie.

    I can totally appreciate why this guy is pissed, but just want to give some info to shut him up so he'll stop harassing me and my family.

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated

    Cheers

    Simon


    Simon, when you bought it didn't it come with a roadworthy check?

    I'm just thinking that down here in Victoria if a tester passes a car that has a fault its his problem not yours.
    I sold an R12 once that had a bent rear axle beam, very slight and I didn't notice it, nor did the roadworthy guy but the new owner did about 3 weeks after purchasing it and the RWC tester had to fix it, not me, not the buyer.

    If you can prove that in your time of ownership it hadn't been touched then duck shove the whole lot onto the previous tester.
    David Cavanagh

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  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    There's no need for a roadworthy check in NSW, if a car is sold with registration then it's seen as meeting all applicable standards.

    Thanks for the replies though guys.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Shows the value of sending in the notice of disposal portion of the rego papers (which used to be required by law) within the required time - used to be 14 days (in NSW).
    KB
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    Default Problem regarding sale

    NSW law provides that a private seller is obliged to supply a current (that is, no more than one month old) pink slip to any prospective purchaser of a registered vehicle. It's not enforced and, in my experience, no one ever asks for one.

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    I don't think that's the case, I've done some research on this and from what I can tell that's definitely the case in QLD and possibly, VIC, but not NSW.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil the Greek View Post
    NSW law provides that a private seller is obliged to supply a current (that is, no more than one month old) pink slip to any prospective purchaser of a registered vehicle. It's not enforced and, in my experience, no one ever asks for one.

    http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registrati...ling_a_vehicle



    Jo

  13. #13
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    Simon, quite simply not your problem. Can understand the other guy may be upset and so would you be in the reverse situation but if you have acted in good faith then that's it!
    Don't get involved in consulting a lawyer as that will cost heaps, the first thing they (and Vets,in my experience) learn is calculator use and bill preparation.

    Peter
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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    I suggested talking to a lawyer to be able to understand the exposure you may have with the sale, however if the terms and conditions are clear, then you may not need one.
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  15. #15
    Veni Vidi Posti 68 404's Avatar
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    Imagine if Jo Proffi told prospective buyers every problem with the Fuego they are considering...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon83 View Post
    There's no need for a roadworthy check in NSW, if a car is sold with registration then it's seen as meeting all applicable standards.

    Thanks for the replies though guys.
    I didn't realise you didn't need a RWC when selling like we do but I still don't see how its your problem.

    Some where someone checked the car out and said it was roadworthy, you, as the consumer are not expected to know if the air bags will work or not, thats what you pay mechanics to check. As long as you can convince him the car hasn't been fiddled with in your time then it comes down to the person who passed it.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by 68 404 View Post
    Imagine if Jo Proffi told prospective buyers every problem with the Fuego they are considering...

    Dave
    Haha.
    I did that once on ebay, and got $400 as a result, the opening bid.
    In perspective thats what the stereo and alloy rims were each worth, so if the owner would have complained, it would have made me laugh more than anything.


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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Cavanagh View Post
    I didn't realise you didn't need a RWC when selling like we do but I still don't see how its your problem.
    You dont, and it isn't.

    Jo

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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi View Post
    You dont, and it isn't.

    Jo
    I always find it funny how people think they can not sell their car because they dont have a RWC...I remember telling one potential seller that I might be looking at making a "sculpture" out of the car...so why would I need a RWC??



    dino

  20. #20
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    To me this whole story sounds dodgy. Unfortunately you can't believe a word people say when selling used cars, that includes the OP. Disabling the airbag warning is probably an offence, but impossible to prove who did it. stands as a warning to us all, there are some dodgy characters out there. This Renault was probably involved in a crash at some stage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dino View Post
    I always find it funny how people think they can not sell their car because they dont have a RWC...I remember telling one potential seller that I might be looking at making a "sculpture" out of the car...so why would I need a RWC??



    dino
    In Victoria if the vehicle is registered and purchased off a private seller third party you need a RWC or need to cancel the registration.

    Obviously unregistered vehicles are exempt.

    The onus is with the Seller to provided the RWC. The obligation to send the information to Vic Roads and pay the transfer is with the purchaser.


    From Vic Roads Website:

    Selling or buying an unregistered vehicle
    You do not need to provide a RWC or submit a transfer form to VicRoads. The registered operator can request to cancel the registration by contacting VicRoads on 13 11 71. A receipt of sale should be kept by the seller and the buyer that identifies the vehicle and the details of both parties.

    If you intend driving an unregistered vehicle on a road you will need to obtain an Unregistered Vehicle Permit.

    A person who sells a registered vehicle is required to:

    provide the buyer with a RWC issued not more than 30 days before the date of sale

    * complete a Application for Transfer of Registration form with the buyer and keep a copy for their own records


    A person who buys a registered vehicle is required to:

    * complete the vehicle registration transfer form with the seller
    * submit to VicRoads within 14 days of the sale the completed transfer form, RWC and fees

    Before purchasing a vehicle, buyers are advised to contact VicRoads Vehicle Securities Register on 13 11 71 to check the vehicle's registration details, if there is any finance recorded against the vehicle and that the vehicle is not reported as stolen. To perform this check you must supply the registration number, engine number and Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) (chassis or frame number if no VIN). It is advised that these details be obtained directly from the vehicle.


    Buyers should also consider purchasing a Vehicle Information Package (VIP) prior to purchase. A VIP is a package of information issued by VicRoads that provides vehicle buyers with a detailed record about any Victorian registered vehicle (excluding private information), giving potential buyers peace of mind and enabling them to make an informed purchase decision. A VIP can be purchased over the phone on 13 11 71 or at a VicRoads Customer Service Centre. Please see VIP fees.


    When a vehicle is purchased from or sold to a dealer, the dealer will forward all requirements onto VicRoads.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts dino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    In Victoria if the vehicle is registered and purchased off a private seller third party you need a RWC or need to cancel the registration.

    Obviously unregistered vehicles are exempt.

    The onus is with the Seller to provided the RWC. The obligation to send the information to Vic Roads and pay the transfer is with the purchaser.


    From Vic Roads Website:

    Selling or buying an unregistered vehicle
    You do not need to provide a RWC or submit a transfer form to VicRoads. The registered operator can request to cancel the registration by contacting VicRoads on 13 11 71. A receipt of sale should be kept by the seller and the buyer that identifies the vehicle and the details of both parties.

    If you intend driving an unregistered vehicle on a road you will need to obtain an Unregistered Vehicle Permit.

    A person who sells a registered vehicle is required to:

    provide the buyer with a RWC issued not more than 30 days before the date of sale

    * complete a Application for Transfer of Registration form with the buyer and keep a copy for their own records


    A person who buys a registered vehicle is required to:

    * complete the vehicle registration transfer form with the seller
    * submit to VicRoads within 14 days of the sale the completed transfer form, RWC and fees

    Before purchasing a vehicle, buyers are advised to contact VicRoads Vehicle Securities Register on 13 11 71 to check the vehicle's registration details, if there is any finance recorded against the vehicle and that the vehicle is not reported as stolen. To perform this check you must supply the registration number, engine number and Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) (chassis or frame number if no VIN). It is advised that these details be obtained directly from the vehicle.


    Buyers should also consider purchasing a Vehicle Information Package (VIP) prior to purchase. A VIP is a package of information issued by VicRoads that provides vehicle buyers with a detailed record about any Victorian registered vehicle (excluding private information), giving potential buyers peace of mind and enabling them to make an informed purchase decision. A VIP can be purchased over the phone on 13 11 71 or at a VicRoads Customer Service Centre. Please see VIP fees.


    When a vehicle is purchased from or sold to a dealer, the dealer will forward all requirements onto VicRoads.

    I am well aware of the laws Rob...

    ...all i m saying is that there are people out there who believe they "can not" sell their car without RWC...full stop...
    I spoke to a lady only a few months back who had a car sit in the garage for months on end (husband passed away)...her words were..."I can not sell it as it doesnt have a rwc"...I ofocurse told her that she could do with it as she please...sell it with or without rego...with/without rwc...in parts...as a sculpture...working or not...its is an object that belongs to her and she could sell it under whatever terms she pleased (except those that conflict with law)...

    I thought most car owners were aware of this... appears not...



    dino

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    Perhaps some should stay out of the Renault section, and go out for a drink, to kiss and make up.
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    It seems people have gone off on a tangent on this thread.

    What the rules are in Victoria or any other state regarding sale of a motor vehicle is not relevant to the concerns Simon has raised.

    ...and from what I can make out from the RTA website, he has done nothing wrong.

    There appears to be no requirement to SELL a vehicle with a safety certificate. That is required in NSW to transfer or re-register and there is no obligation on the vendor to provide it.

    So Simon, if the purchaser didn't take the time to have a mechanical inspection done on the car at a garage of his choice prior to purchasing it, it is his problem, not yours. Additionally, he has provided signed confirmation to you that there was no warranty.

    I would suggest discussing it no further with him.

    Provide him with no further information, especially written information. Do not enter into conversation with him if he has even intimated that he intends to involve the legal profession and remember, if it is in writing, it can be used against you.

    If he wants to spend his money and take legal action, then let him - It will cost him dearly to do so if he engages a solicitor.

    ...and don't forget..... for all we know, he could be reading these posts and contemplating what he intends to do....

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    perhaps this point needs to be made clear:

    *a safety inspection is NEVER required to sell/purchase a car. so in the present case, there is no question that the purchaser IS the owner of the car.

    *a safety inspection MAY be required to transer the registration, which is entirely separate from ownership. in NSW you dont need an inspection report at all to transfer the rego, unless the car is not currently registered in NSW. as i see from there, in Tas and Vic, you do. the quote from the VicRoads website above is ambiguous on one point: it says the seller must provide a RWC, but i would imagine the buyer can buy an unroadworthy car, repair it, then get the RWC themself and transfer the rego?
    Last edited by alexander; 3rd February 2011 at 01:34 AM.

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