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    Default Over heating

    I thought i'd fix my over heating Floride by changing the air flow through it, which had a arse about Caravelle set up without the caravelle bonnet but instead trying to suck the air back through the rear grille and piping the air from the side air intakes and forcing it all forward.
    So i've taken most of the pipes and foamafill out, and reversed the fans, and have gone back to a Floride type air flow, in the side vents through the radiator mounted at the back as a Caravelle would have, with two fans sucking the air through the radiator and out the rear grille.
    Which has all worked and hasn't over heated till the other night i thought i'd take the freeway home and again when i'd pushed it hard on a short drive. It seems to me at high revs it still over heats but when just cruising is just fine.
    I still haven't changed the water in it and flushed all the rusty water out, which has been sitting in there for 2 to 3 years in a garage till i got it at x-mas, i'm thinking it's a water pump problem. Any idea's ?

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    John
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    1000+ Posts catshamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 63-1092 View Post
    Any idea's ?
    Yeah. Buy a Pug.



    Mike.
    Started out with nothing, still got most of it left.

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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    John,

    My Floride overheated for years until I pulled the overflow bottle out and cleaned it, it was full of some sort of sludge and was not drawing water back into the radiator, once cleaned it improved dramaticaly.

    It is also important to ensure you have a fan shroud fitted to maximise fan efficiency and it is a good idea to make sure the there are no air leaks in the airflow areas so there is no air drawn from anywhere except through the radiator. i.e. boot lid rubber and ensure the radiator is a neat fit as well (no big gaps behing its mounting surface).

    AND I WOULD DEFINATELY GIVE THE RADIATOR A GOOD FLUSH OUT AND FILL WITH COOLANT AND MAKE SURE YOU BLEED THE AIR OUT OF THE SYSTEM, THESE CARS WILL RUN HOT WITHOUT A PROBLEM IF THE COOLANT IS AT THE CORRECT LEVEL AND THE SYSTEM IS SEALED.

    Graham

    P.S. Don't listen to Englishmen.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi John,
    I might have a reason for your problem.
    A friend of mine had a 4CV with the same issues. This 4CV had a 1300 motor in it. He could drive all day long in town but dare not go on the open road. With car shows he trailered his car.
    He stuck cottonwool flags all overthe car and one night he took the 4CV out on the motorway with a friend following in another car. At low speeds the cottonwool flags were indicating wind entering the intakes which is the same as your car(in front of the rear wheels). As the speed increased the wind was forced further away from the intakes by the frontal area of the car. ie at low speeds the wind stays close to the sides and at high speeds the wind is forced away from that area such as a wave that is created by a boat. At high speeds that wave goes further away from the boat. When they reached a 100kmh there were herdly any wind going into those intakes and the fans sit in a wind free area. That makes them less effective as well.
    He didn't want to have a radiator in front but eventually that solved his problem.
    Regards
    Frans.
    Old enough to know better
    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Hi John,
    I might have a reason for your problem.
    A friend of mine had a 4CV with the same issues. This 4CV had a 1300 motor in it. He could drive all day long in town but dare not go on the open road. With car shows he trailered his car.
    He stuck cottonwool flags all overthe car and one night he took the 4CV out on the motorway with a friend following in another car. At low speeds the cottonwool flags were indicating wind entering the intakes which is the same as your car(in front of the rear wheels). As the speed increased the wind was forced further away from the intakes by the frontal area of the car. ie at low speeds the wind stays close to the sides and at high speeds the wind is forced away from that area such as a wave that is created by a boat. At high speeds that wave goes further away from the boat. When they reached a 100kmh there were herdly any wind going into those intakes and the fans sit in a wind free area. That makes them less effective as well.
    He didn't want to have a radiator in front but eventually that solved his problem.
    Regards
    Frans.
    That's interesting. There is a 4CV here with 16TS power, and of course Alan Moore's car >over East". They behave pretty well at speed as I understand it.

    Later 4CVs, or some 4CVs, had an airscoop under the car to pick up more air for the radiator (ahead of the motor of course) but heaven knows whether they worked!

    I'd start with getting the cooling system absolutely right and making sure the lid seals well all around, and only then get more drastic. But as Frans said, if the airflow isn't right, all the fans in the world may not help. Do you need just a bit more airflow through that Floride grill than it can provide?

    Pity you can't set up the proper Caravelle system, as the R8/R10 configuration works quite well.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Do you need just a bit more airflow through that Floride grill than it can provide?


    I've taken the number plate off the rear grille and hung it off the bumper, so air flow out the grille should not be impeaded.




    Pity you can't set up the proper Caravelle system, as the R8/R10 configuration works quite well.

    I Could take the bonnet off my other floride which is a Caravelle one, but i like the idea of keeping the car slightly original hence leaving it with a floride air flow system.
    Water pump hasn't had a mention, so wouldn't it be that ?
    John
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 63-1092 View Post
    I Could take the bonnet off my other floride which is a Caravelle one, but i like the idea of keeping the car slightly original hence leaving it with a floride air flow system.
    Water pump hasn't had a mention, so wouldn't it be that ?
    I reckon if the waterpump is turning freely and not making too much noise it would be fine, they are available on ebay for between 65 and 90 euro.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    I reckon if the waterpump is turning freely and not making too much noise it would be fine, they are available on ebay for between 65 and 90 euro.
    Sometimes, with the Ventoux engines such as Florides had, the impeller would spin on the shaft, so all looked OK was wasn't! However, if this is a halfway Caravelle conversion, I'd presumed it has the Sierra engine, and I've never heard of problems like that. If it is Sierra, and the pump bearings feel OK and the pump isn't leaking, it is probably pumping. You can check by running the car with the radiator cap off and watch for turbulence when the thermostat opens.

    When I said "get the cooling system right" I meant check water pump, check thermostat, clean properly and be sure the radiator is really OK.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    My Supermodel 63-1092's Avatar
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    It hasn't got the stock engine but a 1250cc out of a R12, with drums converted to discs.
    John
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    I agree with Graham, before you start pulling things apart have the radiator cleaned and flush the engine block. It would be a miracle after sitting for a few years if the radiator hand't accumulated some "worms" in the core.

    Once that's done you can go looking for some more obscure causes.

    P

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    Quote Originally Posted by 63-1092 View Post
    It hasn't got the stock engine but a 1250cc out of a R12, with drums converted to discs.
    OK, Sierra motor, so the water pump impeller probably won't be spinning freely on its shaft.

    Back to radiator, thermostat and block check and clean out.
    JohnW

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    Is it just the tune?

    Can you hear pinking on a floride with the engine behind you? If it is good at idle and at cruise but overheats under load, it could be the tune.

    I helped a Floride (or Caravelle - I can't remember) that had broken down on the way to a Renault Round Up a few years back. I didn't know the owner but the car had been nicely restored and looked pretty much as new. It was the cars first run but it had started to run rough and then just stopped on the side of the freeway.

    A quick check found that it had no spark and aftre flipping the dizzy cap, it was found that the points rubbing block had worn away and the points had closed up.

    I gave the points a gap by eye and a dib of oil on the shaft and it fired up straight away and idled about right.

    We followed the Floride down the freeway and all was well, but as we got to the hills and it was put under load I could hear it pinking it's butt off. It was pinking painfully and the timing was obviously miles out - perhaps due to an incorrect dwell.

    I could hear the pinking from inside a fairly noisy Fuego from 50m's back. I tried flashing the driver so he would pull over, but he obviously couldn't hear the pinking or didn't know what the noise was and it obviously wasn't dramatically affecting the performance.

    This continued on for several k's until presumably the car got so hot that the glass expansion bottle exploded quite violently showereing the newly repainted engine bay in glycol.

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    Default Over heating

    Yes, if the timing is too far advanced, it will cause pinking and overheating, especially at higher r.p.m's

    Henry

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    I don't know if this is herlpful but I installed an extra air scope where the fuel tank used to be on Kermit the 4CV Gordini. I fitted a thermo pusher fan with manual override and cut off 2 of the 4 blade standard fan. This provided all that was necessary to maintain temperature. It is also essential to seal all airways and direct airflow to the radiator the curtains at either side of the radiator are of particular concern. Ensure by either silicon or other means no gaps are present.

    I converted Kermit to a sealed 12 PSI system with a recovery bottle but finding a Rad cap suitable was not easy. I eventually found one at Repco, I believe it was from a Diahatsu Charade.
    Last edited by Colin Rose; 26th January 2011 at 07:22 PM.

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    My Supermodel 63-1092's Avatar
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    So by the sounds of things it could a number of things. I've booked it in down the road at Alpine Affair for a once over in a week or so, so i'll just wait till then and see what they find wrong with it, i'm sure the list will be quite long.
    Otherwise i'll just keep driving it at cruise mode, which is still enjoyable as long as summer kicks in and we start getting some nice days.
    Thanks all for the input, and for those in Melb hopefully i'll make to the Renault Round Up and i'll see you there.
    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by 63-1092 View Post
    So by the sounds of things it could a number of things. I've booked it in down the road at Alpine Affair for a once over in a week or so, so i'll just wait till then and see what they find wrong with it, i'm sure the list will be quite long.
    Otherwise i'll just keep driving it at cruise mode, which is still enjoyable as long as summer kicks in and we start getting some nice days.
    Thanks all for the input, and for those in Melb hopefully i'll make to the Renault Round Up and i'll see you there.
    Not a bad idea. We'll wait to hear the outcome.

    I've had a few irregularly opening thermostats over the years.
    JohnW

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    My Supermodel 63-1092's Avatar
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    Out of interest, on a Floride or Dauphine or any other car that has the same dash instruments, in normal driving where does your needle point on your temp gauge ?
    Also when driving at night with your lights on, is there a light to illuminate the gaudes ?
    John
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    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    John,

    Yes the standard gauges are illuminated with one globe (just below the indicator arrow) and the temperature on mine never goes above about 80 and i do not run a thermostat. But it has been a journey to get the cooling system to be in this kind of good health (see all the reasons above).

    Graham

    P.S. To change the dash globe you need to think like a Frenchman...you will need to lay upside down in the driver seat, dangle the legs casually over the back rest, (it is a good thing to do this while sober and unaffected by strong drugs because you may pass out within a few minutes) get your gynecologists torch and hold it between your teeth and look upwards. With one hand reach up and being carefull not to loosen any of the dozen or so spade fittings, remove the globe holder by pulling straight out and change the globe. Reassembly is the reverse.
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 28th January 2011 at 10:54 PM.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    OK, Sierra motor, so the water pump impeller probably won't be spinning freely on its shaft.
    I would not count on that, I have seen them free on the shaft, and Frans has told me this too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride; [URL="http://www.aussiefrogs.com/search?q=gynecologists&FORM=AWRE"
    gynecologists[/URL] torch.

    I aint got one of those but i have a miners torch that straps to my forehead that i got from working in the East Link tunnel, i hope it will work for this procedure.
    John
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    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    I sort of have a background of problem solving and I can see amost straight away where our problem lies. The original Florides, Caravelles, R8's and R10s cooling systems were engineered (and I don't use the term loosely) around the 40-48 something horsepower cooling requirements for every country in the world that Renault envisaged selling their cars in.

    If you want to stuff a 25% power increase into the existing cooling system surely the upper limit at which it is efficient will be reduced.

    I'm all smiles as I tell you that a rally R8G at 160 bhp had exactly the same configuration as the original standard car with an oil cooler stuffed in front (rear) of the radiator too!

    If you've got your R12 motor up to 160bhp and you're still complaining I think you should have a good look at your "bonnet" seals and your under-tray configuration! ;-)
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    That's interesting. There is a 4CV here with 16TS power, and of course Alan Moore's car >over East". They behave pretty well at speed as I understand it.

    Later 4CVs, or some 4CVs, had an airscoop under the car to pick up more air for the radiator (ahead of the motor of course) but heaven knows whether they worked!

    I'd start with getting the cooling system absolutely right and making sure the lid seals well all around, and only then get more drastic. But as Frans said, if the airflow isn't right, all the fans in the world may not help. Do you need just a bit more airflow through that Floride grill than it can provide?

    Pity you can't set up the proper Caravelle system, as the R8/R10 configuration works quite well.
    Actually my 4CV at 100KPH has the twin electric pusher fans cut in every few Klms. I would be gone without the fans. I never did any experiments on trying to make it better, and I did fit the radiator in the original position partly because I was told it wouldn't work, and partly as I didn't want to cut up the front of the car to fit an air intake.

    The two core radiator is the width of the chassis rails and the max height available, about 3 times the size of the original 4CV. I have sealed the sides of the radiator and modified the original engine trays to be a close fit to the 16TS engine, and use an inhibitor rather than glycol as the heat transfer is better.

    At the last muster I did have a look at Steve Cs 4CV and the 16TS radiator front fitment is quite neat and I may well go that way in the future.
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Kim Luck's Avatar
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    Default Radiators in 4CV's

    Alan, could I ask if the radiator is a conventional local section or something like the skinny new Renault aluminium jiggers seen in the later models?
    Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone............

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    John,

    I had a random thought today re your cooling problem. If you are still running the original Floride radiator it will have a smaller top hose connection which wouldn't be siutable for the bigger donk because of the reduced water flow. If you can compare it to the radiator out of an R10 you will see what I mean by the reduced size.

    If this is the case it would be a simple step to change to an R10 rad.

    Just a thought.
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    John,

    I had a random thought today re your cooling problem. If you are still running the original Floride radiator it will have a smaller top hose connection which wouldn't be siutable for the bigger donk because of the reduced water flow. If you can compare it to the radiator out of an R10 you will see what I mean by the reduced size.

    If this is the case it would be a simple step to change to an R10 rad.

    Just a thought.

    Graham the radiator is big or you could even say massive, it's french but dont know out of what, even the guys at the club didn't know.
    I was under the house looking for flouro tubes today and found where i'd stashed a spare radiator surround, and thought how small it looked, i'd have to cut it that much that you would loose where the glass bottle straps on.
    I haven't done anything to correct the problem, i'll just wait till next week for its once over and see what they say.
    John
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