R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! keith mcelroy's Avatar
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    Default R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)

    Hi All,
    At last I am about to tackle the transmission issue which stopped my R10 drive at the Tip of Cape York last year. I will have short term access to a 2 post hoist later next week, and plan A is to have a pre-checked gearbox and suitable clutch mechanism ready to instal when the hoist becomes available.

    I am confused about a few things and so Iím hoping for some advice from you knowledgeable forum members out there.

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    The car is a 1967 R10 round-eye. I remember that the gearbox input shaft was of the fine spline type (20 teeth?) and that the clutch diaphragm was of the type with the thrust bearing contact surface being a triangular plate on 3 long fingers.

    I have a spare gearbox in the shed salvaged from my first rally car, also an R10 round-eye. It will need a check over, as it has not moved for 36 years. Unfortunately it has the coarse spline input shaft (10 teeth?).

    Question 1: Are these input shafts interchangeable, so I can use the fine spline type in the spare gearbox, if the shaft comes out of the Trip car undamaged?

    I am also told that the style of clutch diaphragm/plate/thrust bearing combo is no longer available.

    Question 2: Can anyone offer guidance as to interchangeability of the multitude of clutch part types, availability and hence my best approach in this area?

    In grateful anticipation of your shared wisdom.

    Thanks, Keith

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    My old round eye paddock basher still has a decent gearbox in it... Its one of a multitude of wrecks on the family farm in central Victoria I want to get rid of!
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi Keith,
    Glad to hear from you again and glad that we might find out about the gremlin!
    Q1: Yes you can by removing the bell housing and then you will have to make a special tool to go past the diff and push the roll pin out that holds the shaft in place. I have a tool that can do this and you can use it if you can't figure it out or I can make you a drawing and you can copy it. Failing this you will have to split the box to get it out and swap the shafts.
    Q2:The assembly that you have is the carbon thrust type. If you want to change it you will have to find a later model bell housing with a tube in the center where the thrust bearing slides on. When you find this bell housing you can interchange it with your gearbox BUT...it has another input shaft different from the other 2(old course spline & new fine spline) These bell housings have the oil seal on the inside of the box where the old ones have it on the outside. The smooth area where the oil seal seats on is in a different position. That is the reason why the roller thrust type bell housing has to have the input shaft that goes with it. Then you have to remove that flat plate on the pressure plate so that the roller thrust press directly on the fingers of the press plate. ie. there are 3 types input shafts.
    Ask if there are more Q's
    Frans.
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  4. #4
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Good you're back Keith!

    There are plenty of people who know the answers regarding the interchangeability of those shafts, and I'm not completely sure myself. You can get clutch driven plates with either type of spline arrangement so you may not need to mess with it that shaft at all.

    You can get both types of pressure plate, that is with and without the triangular plate the the clutch thrust bears against. You can also get both graphite thrust "bearing" (perfectly adequate, but don't sit with your foot on the clutch!) and an identical dimension roller bearing thrust. You can get whatever thrust is used on the alternative pressure plate that just has fingers, without the triangular plate.

    All of these components are either available in Australia or France or on eBay. I'm not aware of anything you can't get.

    My advice would be, for the gearbox:

    (a) check whether the energiser springs in the synchromesh have been changed, as these break eventually and can cause catastrophic damage
    (b) replace all seals in the gearbox if they haven't been changed, particularly the one between gearbox and clutch. Don't fail to replace the roll pin in the internal gear selectors when replacing the front seal where the selector rod enters the gearbox.
    (c) as the diff seals require the crownwheel carrier bearing seats to be removed and refitted, get advice (i.e. better than mine) about whether any more shims are appropriate under those bearing seats.

    Consider new universal joints at the same time, and new rear wheel bearings, and fit grease nipples so you can grease them next time you get submerged! The R10 has blanking threaded plugs where my R8 has grease nipples.

    Consider new lateral and central gearbox mounts at the same time. And new engine mounts.

    Best of luck.

    Replace the rubber blocks in the gearchange linkage.
    JohnW

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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! keith mcelroy's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for advice

    Thanks Haakon, Frans and JohnW,
    As usual I have learnt from your collective wisdom. I now see a range of possibilities, but it looks like the final decision will await the removal of the existing 'box and asessing damage and to the existing clutch components. Although I remember the pressure plate having the triangular smooth plate that could mate with a carbon thrust 'bearing' I am sure the bearing was NOT of the carbon type. I am sure the input shaft was of the fine spline type, which I am guessing is likely to be stronger than the coarse style (not that I have heard of breakages here?: your comment Frans, because you probabley work rear engined Renaults harder than anyone I know!).

    I shall report back when more is known.
    Regards, Keith

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    Thanks for letting us all know Keith I am very interested to find out . I look forward to the final chapter of the story Cheers

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keith mcelroy View Post
    Thanks Haakon, Frans and JohnW,
    As usual I have learnt from your collective wisdom. I now see a range of possibilities, but it looks like the final decision will await the removal of the existing 'box and asessing damage and to the existing clutch components. Although I remember the pressure plate having the triangular smooth plate that could mate with a carbon thrust 'bearing' I am sure the bearing was NOT of the carbon type. I am sure the input shaft was of the fine spline type, which I am guessing is likely to be stronger than the coarse style (not that I have heard of breakages here?: your comment Frans, because you probabley work rear engined Renaults harder than anyone I know!).

    I shall report back when more is known.
    Regards, Keith
    Keith, there are two types of thrust bearings for that triangular device on the pressure plate, the standard graphite and a later (maybe aftermarket) needle roller thrust bearing of the same dimensions. I fitted the latter to mine years ago and they appear on eBay France from time to time.

    Frans' words show how much more he knows about those shafts! What it all means is you have plenty of options. First get the gearbox right I'd suggest. Really right......

    Cheers

    John
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

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  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! keith mcelroy's Avatar
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    Default Autopsy results and repair

    Hi All,
    At long last, and just in time for the Victorian Renault Round-Up on Sun 20th Feb, the transmission woes of the 67 round headlight R10 that faltered at the Tip of Cape York have been diagnosed and fixed.

    I have attached photos of the broken part and the damage it created.

    No sand got into wrong places as I had feared, nor was the clutch mechanism itself to blame. The shaft on which the differential spider cogs spin snapped in half (see photos and diagram). It appears that the break had started quite some time ago. Perhaps the only previous owner, an 88 year old lady, was in the habit of doing Sat night doughnuts in St Kilda car parks! The ends of this shaft tried to punch their way out of the gearbox near the section of bell housing that supports the pivot for the clutch thrust bearing fork (see photos). The result of this process was at first a completely immoveable clutch, which later shifted enough to work after a fashion, then all gearbox oil exited through the hole(s) created. At some point on the RACV trip home the loose spider cogs shifted enough to lose drive in all forward gears. There was no way an attempt to drive clutchless for the 6,000 km trip home would have been successful.

    The fix procedure was as follows. A transmission from my first rally car (a very high mileage 67 round headlight R10, which was destroyed when I end-for-ended it avoiding a lost and an oncoming rally car in the 1970s) had somehow stayed in my possession, following me through 3 states and umpteen dwellings, now became a donor item. Hoarder! Who said that?

    The donor gearbox had the older coarse spline input shaft but otherwise appeared the same model. The bell housing proved identical and replaced the damaged item. The donor gearbox, when split apart, seemed to have survived 35 years on the shed floor OK, so mixing and matching of best components took place.

    I have ended up with my original case, original fine spline input shaft (so clutch assembly could stay untouched), the complete diff assembly from the donor box, bearings from the donor box (because they appeared undamaged and not oil starved) but the cogs from the damaged box, and a mix-and-match of the best looking synchro rings from either box. Thus, no new parts were required, except the oil.

    I greatly appreciate the skills of friend Ted for setting up the new box with correct clearances etc and helping me to get mobile again. Thanks to all who offered advice and encouragement along the way. I will bring the car to the Renault Round Up and would like to meet any of you who will be in attendance.

    Cheers, Keith
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)-gearbox-broken-diag.jpg   R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)-bell-housing-hole-1.jpg   R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)-bell-housing-hole-2.jpg   R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)-bell-housing-hole-3.jpg   R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)-broken-shaft.jpg   R10 Silly Adventure (resumed)-broken-shaft-ends.jpg  


  9. #9
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    That looks seriously rooted - and it weren't going to be fixed with a discarded port bottle cork neither...

    P

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I had an R10 gearbox fail in exactly the same way - at 100kph on the Westgate freeway...

    Made an almighty BANG!!!!!, and a steady stream of oil from the bellhousing....

    Although in my case, the diff bits all locked up internally and maintained drive all the way back to a friends place in Box Hill. I pushed my luck though, and it left me stranded halfway to home in St Kilda.

    My gearbox was in a car that was a paddock basher, and then had a 19 year old me driving it around Melbourne for a year - I was unsurprised it eventually broke!
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

  11. #11
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post
    That looks seriously rooted - and it weren't going to be fixed with a discarded port bottle cork neither...

    P
    Wow. At least you can be completely sure that there was nothing you could have done on the spot with fencing wire or epoxy!!

    Did you replace the energiser springs in the synchro unit? They fail at high mileages and can destroy the gearbox.

    Cheers

    John
    JohnW

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  12. #12
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Hey great thread Keith......Glad you have it sorted and it is also gratifying to know so much credible technical help is available on AF.

    The trouble is now, after reading above, I am nervously waiting for when my R10 box goes bang, as is seems inevitable given some of the comments posted.

    Do you lads reckon it is worth having a gearbox reconditioned before it goes bang, and are there still enough people around who can do it properly??
    Last edited by 59 Floride; 20th February 2011 at 09:13 AM.
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post

    The trouble is now, after reading above, I am nervously waiting for when my R10 box to go bang, as is seems inevitable given some of the comments posted.

    Do you lads reckon it is worth having a gearbox reconditioned before it goes bang, and are there still enough people around who can do it properly??
    No, I don't. I've been driving R8's & 10's since 1985 and have never broken a gearbox or diff - I thought I had once, but it turned out to be broken engine mounts versus say, Alan Moore who's mutilated more than he cares to remember!.

    One common thread on those that go bang seems to be abuse - they do not handle large horsepower or deliberately trying to break traction like in a motorkhana for example or other motorsport. Your need for a backup gearbox in my opinion will be determined by how you either currently treat it or intend to treat it in the future.

    Bruce Collier rebuilt the gearbox in the Green R8 about 9 yrs ago and back then it cost around $1500 from memory. That's a fair amount of coin to have sitting around on the garage floor just in case.

    KB
    KB


  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post

    The trouble is now, after reading above, I am nervously waiting for when my R10 box to go bang, as is seems inevitable given some of the comments posted.

    Do you lads reckon it is worth having a gearbox reconditioned before it goes bang, and are there still enough people around who can do it properly??
    My opinion. No, don't worry at all. I cannot explain why it broke but there are only isolated cases with this type of breakage. If you have a look at that shaft you will notice that it broke in the middle with a clean break. It was not sheared off or bent and there is no torsional forces on it. The forces on it is in any case far away from the center (breakage point) because it sits right up tight against the inside casing. The forces on it is well supported and away from the center. It is like a trailer axle: If the springs were in the center of the axle you would need a very thick one but because the springs are on the outsides the weight is taken up there and there are very little strain on the center of the axle hence it can be so thin.
    I would blame it on a bad batch that were tempered wrongly. It was made to hard and became brittle and that is why it is such a clean break.

    Enjoy your car and you can take on the odd Morris or Anglia at the traffic lights. Did I say traffic lights? No I didn't

    Frans.
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    Young enough to do it anyway.

  15. #15
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Hey great thread Keith......Glad you have it sorted and it is also gratifying to know so much credible technical help is available on AF.

    The trouble is now, after reading above, I am nervously waiting for when my R10 box goes bang, as is seems inevitable given some of the comments posted.

    Do you lads reckon it is worth having a gearbox reconditioned before it goes bang, and are there still enough people around who can do it properly??
    Well you'll get the full range of opinions on that question!

    I've never had one fail (the split casing variety, that is). However, our 200,000 km R12 box died within months of our selling it - energiser springs failed and dropped into meshing gears, and BANG.

    My Renault friends in Perth, not typically on line in this forum, all say the same thing, that high mileage gearboxes are prone to that failure. The springs get worn in one place and break at the end of the wear mark, sometime after 150,000 km perhaps.

    Last year I had my spare gearbox dismantled and the springs replaced (Caravelle had them available if I recall) and it cost me $200 plus $50-80 for the parts (springs and seals). I went to a transmission specialist in Perth and a guy into vintage motor bikes did the work. "Best to fix them before they break mate" was his comment. It's not hard except for getting the synchro units off the shaft. Mine needed tonnes of pressure after freezing the assembly and then applying heat to the outside. Some are easier.

    If you pull them down you can check the bearings and get any of them that are tired replaced, change the roll pin on the selector input shaft and replace the diff seals (which sit behind the bearing seat on the diff carrier).

    Chances are you'll get years without trouble, but we all see these things differently.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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