Renault Laguna II V6 fuel pump - diagram help etc.
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  1. #1
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    Icon5 Renault Laguna II V6 fuel pump - diagram help etc.

    Back in April 2007 the Laguna had an issue with an intermittent problem in which you would hear a roaring sound seemingly come from the rear of the car, best I could judge then was that it sounded like the fuel pump was cavitating. When this happened the car would seem to stall or balk when you went to accelarate away at an intersection and when travelling at highway speeds, almost like it was running out of fuel.

    After several fills with a full tank of fuel, it was noticed that the problem only returned when it got down to a quarter of a tank and the strange noise would return - it was real annoying as it ran like a dream with the full tank, but in fits and starts at the quarter tank level.

    Through the forum a Laguna 11 owner from Perth advised me that he had the same problem, and the same roaring sound at lower tank levels and that his Perth dealer had fixed it by replacing the fuel pump.

    Armed with that information I presented the car back to the dealership citing the problem and the most likely fix and I pre4sume the fuel pump was replaced under warranty (I had purchased a 3 year extended warranty when I bought the car.

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    I had all but forgotten that frustrating period until we had to drive down to Avalon to pick up our son who was returning from Sydney New Years Celebrations i.e. cheap flight, but lands at Avalon - come and fetch me Dad

    So drove down there and after we picked him up he asked what the noise was as we were driving out over the multiple speed humps on the exit road. I just thought it was a noisy car beside us, but it was the old roaring sound echoing around the rear of the car. On the freeway the car started to balk and slow down on cruise control and by the time we came to the Westgate bridge I could not get it above 70 kph even though for once the bridge was open to 80 kph speeds, it then started to stall a bit at intersections which was a bit hairy in the city, but we got home all right.

    I immediately though "bloody coil problem" as I had put the newer more reliable white resin topped coils in the rear bank, as a trial and was running with older coils and some of the cheaper after market new ones in the front bank so a pretty easy job to get in and check them - engine cover off, undo 8mm securing bolt and disconnect the coil, then take out the platinum plug, check both coil and plug and one of the new coils showed some sign of overheating and extrusion of sealant - so replaced that with another one and also put in a new platinum plug - did the whole front bank - easy job.

    Was pretty confident I had "fixed" the problem, so later when we had to go out on a rescue mission late that night, I re-heard the roaring sound while we were stopped at a set of traffic lights and no other cars around us. Then the car started playing up and slightly stalling.

    I mentioned to Australdi that I might put the symptoms up on A/F as I had an idea it might be a dodgy fuel pump, then I was reading through some old Laguna notes and found the 2007 note, and the low quarter tank combined with the roaring noise fell into place - yes it would be the fuel pump.

    Apparently there is some correlation with the low tank and the need for a new fuel pump. As it was last replaced under warranty, I never investigated exactly the solution or the location of the components.

    My urgent request now is for any further information - location of the actual pump, the actual problem that causes it and the fix if any of our good members here have that information. Any experience of the cost of a new pump or part and how it is replaced would also be helpful.

    Looks like I will be able to drive around with a full tank and avoid the problem in the interim - at the moment I have the Fuego, a Camry, to fix as well as my sons Porsches that both need some urgent attention to keep them on the road, but the priority is to get the Laguna back to pristine operating condition!!

    Thanks in advance for any information or diagrams of the location and fix for the fuel pump problem or cost of components.

    Regards.

    Ken.

  2. #2
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    I was told the fuel pump on a laguna wagon was accessible from under the rear seat and that it is around $750 (yes seven five O!!) dollars in parts only. I should add it was a Renault trained tech who told me this.

    Not sure on the sedans, but would imagine it may be similar?
    KB
    Last edited by renault8&10; 4th January 2011 at 06:42 PM. Reason: added source of info
    KB


  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Back in April 2007 the Laguna had an issue with an intermittent problem in which you would hear a roaring sound seemingly come from the rear of the car, best I could judge then was that it sounded like the fuel pump was cavitating. When this happened the car would seem to stall or balk when you went to accelarate away at an intersection and when travelling at highway speeds, almost like it was running out of fuel.

    After several fills with a full tank of fuel, it was noticed that the problem only returned when it got down to a quarter of a tank and the strange noise would return - it was real annoying as it ran like a dream with the full tank, but in fits and starts at the quarter tank level.

    Through the forum a Laguna 11 owner from Perth advised me that he had the same problem, and the same roaring sound at lower tank levels and that his Perth dealer had fixed it by replacing the fuel pump.

    Armed with that information I presented the car back to the dealership citing the problem and the most likely fix and I pre4sume the fuel pump was replaced under warranty (I had purchased a 3 year extended warranty when I bought the car.

    I had all but forgotten that frustrating period until we had to drive down to Avalon to pick up our son who was returning from Sydney New Years Celebrations i.e. cheap flight, but lands at Avalon - come and fetch me Dad

    So drove down there and after we picked him up he asked what the noise was as we were driving out over the multiple speed humps on the exit road. I just thought it was a noisy car beside us, but it was the old roaring sound echoing around the rear of the car. On the freeway the car started to balk and slow down on cruise control and by the time we came to the Westgate bridge I could not get it above 70 kph even though for once the bridge was open to 80 kph speeds, it then started to stall a bit at intersections which was a bit hairy in the city, but we got home all right.

    I immediately though "bloody coil problem" as I had put the newer more reliable white resin topped coils in the rear bank, as a trial and was running with older coils and some of the cheaper after market new ones in the front bank so a pretty easy job to get in and check them - engine cover off, undo 8mm securing bolt and disconnect the coil, then take out the platinum plug, check both coil and plug and one of the new coils showed some sign of overheating and extrusion of sealant - so replaced that with another one and also put in a new platinum plug - did the whole front bank - easy job.

    Was pretty confident I had "fixed" the problem, so later when we had to go out on a rescue mission late that night, I re-heard the roaring sound while we were stopped at a set of traffic lights and no other cars around us. Then the car started playing up and slightly stalling.

    I mentioned to Australdi that I might put the symptoms up on A/F as I had an idea it might be a dodgy fuel pump, then I was reading through some old Laguna notes and found the 2007 note, and the low quarter tank combined with the roaring noise fell into place - yes it would be the fuel pump.

    Apparently there is some correlation with the low tank and the need for a new fuel pump. As it was last replaced under warranty, I never investigated exactly the solution or the location of the components.

    My urgent request now is for any further information - location of the actual pump, the actual problem that causes it and the fix if any of our good members here have that information. Any experience of the cost of a new pump or part and how it is replaced would also be helpful.

    Looks like I will be able to drive around with a full tank and avoid the problem in the interim - at the moment I have the Fuego, a Camry, to fix as well as my sons Porsches that both need some urgent attention to keep them on the road, but the priority is to get the Laguna back to pristine operating condition!!

    Thanks in advance for any information or diagrams of the location and fix for the fuel pump problem or cost of components.

    Regards.

    Ken.
    Ken,

    If you need a new pump try a Bosch universal fitment pump with customised ends. Have look at "aftermarket" on Bosch Au website.

    I can't help thinking it may a displacement of the fuel pick up - nothing else except air in fuel flow or a partially blocked filter would normally cause cavitation.

    Unless the pump is noisy because it st#ffed.

    I have test gear poised and ready for the "electric motor"

    cheers

    Rob

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    Icon3 Ah yes...

    Thanks Robmac

    The electric motor is on the list too, but often my own jobs get put well down the list as new things eventuate. and $750 for a new pump. On that question I am wondering also if a new filter would help and some wiggling and cleaning of connections - as it did all co-incide with driving (surfing) over those dratted little speed bumps at Avalon, enough to shake connections up. I also wonder if a new fuel pump was fitted in 2007, perhaps not as it seems too soon for it to have failed, if that's the case.

    Regards and see you soon.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Thanks Robmac

    The electric motor is on the list too, but often my own jobs get put well down the list as new things eventuate. and $750 for a new pump. On that question I am wondering also if a new filter would help and some wiggling and cleaning of connections - as it did all co-incide with driving (surfing) over those dratted little speed bumps at Avalon, enough to shake connections up. I also wonder if a new fuel pump was fitted in 2007, perhaps not as it seems too soon for it to have failed, if that's the case.

    Regards and see you soon.

    Ken
    It doesn't have be $750.

    My mate with a 3 year old 7 series BMW had the car die in Kyneton. He managed to get the car to local autolec at 11:45 on a Saturday.

    The in tank pump was duly diagnosed at fault. It was a Bosch pump with a Bosch 10 digit part number and not listed in autolec's catalogue.

    However the Bosch number was very similar to a Falcon Fuel pump number (last digit different) They compared the two, and the difference was the fuel pick up and the electrical terminals.

    Five minutes mods and the pump fitted. Both are for an engine of around 4.5 litre.

    The Falcon pump including fitting was $220.00

    He priced a new pump from BMW, $800 +gst odd trade price part only.

    It pays to look at the alternatives!

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    Default Fuel starving

    Ken, I had this exact problem with my 2 Litre 2002 Laguna at about 50000K. The fuel pump was replaced under warranty and the problem recurred occasionally thereafter, much to my dismay and often hundreds of k's from home - but always with a low tank.
    Filling up cured it until the next time.
    One occasion at about 130000k was really bad and in desperation I guessed that the tank may have been too well sealed and loosened the petrol cap...... end of problem. Same problem a few more times with same cure.
    I then attacked the cap with some petrol and compressed air and have not had any recent problems.
    Hope it works for you ..... much cheaper than a new pump!!!!!

    John Masefield

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMasefield View Post
    Ken, I had this exact problem with my 2 Litre 2002 Laguna at about 50000K. The fuel pump was replaced under warranty and the problem recurred occasionally thereafter, much to my dismay and often hundreds of k's from home - but always with a low tank.
    Filling up cured it until the next time.
    One occasion at about 130000k was really bad and in desperation I guessed that the tank may have been too well sealed and loosened the petrol cap...... end of problem. Same problem a few more times with same cure.
    I then attacked the cap with some petrol and compressed air and have not had any recent problems.
    Hope it works for you ..... much cheaper than a new pump!!!!!

    John Masefield
    Thanks John

    I have checked on the pressure, the cap opening certainly cause quite a whoosh of air (not sure if in or out yet) so I am mindful of that, will check that out too in the next few days, the tank is now full of juice and no cavitating noise from the pump.

    Ken

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    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-LAGUNA...ht_3500wt_1141

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-LAGUNA...ht_3585wt_1141

    My Laguna one had a similar in tank arrangement, and just like the ClioSport guys I installed a Bosch Commodore pump - $110 from Repco.

    Was a little shorter than the Reno item, so had to add a rubber spacer to fit it. Worked like a charm
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Icon14 Better price !!

    Thanks Haakon

    Those are pretty clear images and the price is better!!

    I'm trying to source a picture or the dimensions of the present one that is fitted. On some of the UK boards they talk about the need to have a special tool (55 UK quid) to avoid damaging the seal on removal or replacement. I'll trying to suss out that too before wading in and tackling the source of the issue.

    The fact it will run o.k. with the full tank is helpful in buying time to get to the ultimate fix.

    Thanks again mate!

    Ken

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Thanks Haakon

    Those are pretty clear images and the price is better!!

    I'm trying to source a picture or the dimensions of the present one that is fitted. On some of the UK boards they talk about the need to have a special tool (55 UK quid) to avoid damaging the seal on removal or replacement. I'll trying to suss out that too before wading in and tackling the source of the issue.

    The fact it will run o.k. with the full tank is helpful in buying time to get to the ultimate fix.

    Thanks again mate!

    Ken
    http://www.bosch.com.au/content/lang...l_Pump_WEB.pdf

    This takes a while to load. Xantia is listed under vehicle applications.

    Bosch pumps are normally not too bad in pricing.

    May be easier than buying overseas or adapting.

    The blocked vent sounds a possible explanation 'tho.

    EDIT:

    Just to add another theory, I wonder if the pump could have a fault. When the fuel is not covering the pump it overheats and hence the symptom?

    It's would be good to why the pump is misbehaving

  11. #11
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    Default Thanks again!

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    http://www.bosch.com.au/content/lang...l_Pump_WEB.pdf

    This takes a while to load. Xantia is listed under vehicle applications.

    Bosch pumps are normally not too bad in pricing.

    May be easier than buying overseas or adapting.

    The blocked vent sounds a possible explanation 'tho.

    EDIT:

    Just to add another theory, I wonder if the pump could have a fault. When the fuel is not covering the pump it overheats and hence the symptom?

    It's would be good to why the pump is misbehaving
    Robmac

    That is an excellent on line catalogue for Bosch pumps and technical testing etc.

    Seems that Bosch 0 580 313 053 is the correct pump fitted for the Laguna type L7X 731 3 litre V6, so if I need to go down that track the number will help in sourcing direct.

    Just had a look in the laguna and I need to work out how to access the pump area, back seats don't just lift out,easily it seems - so needs some more probing around after lunch. etc.

    Good day for working on cars, but also good day for wife to divert my attention to her priority jobs while the weather is good!!

    Ken

  12. #12
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    Hey Ken,
    Try this mob for the Bosch pump.
    http://www.efi.com.au/index.html
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    Default Thanks HKP!

    Quote Originally Posted by HONG KONG PUGGY View Post
    Hey Ken,
    Try this mob for the Bosch pump.
    http://www.efi.com.au/index.html
    Looks a good source, will consider that if it pans out I need a new pump.

    Thanks

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    .... but also good day for wife to divert my attention to her priority jobs while the weather is good!!

    Ken
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    Robmac

    Just had a look in the laguna and I need to work out how to access the pump area, back seats don't just lift out,easily it seems - so needs some more probing around after lunch. etc.

    Good day for working on cars, but also good day for wife to divert my attention to her priority jobs while the weather is good!!

    Ken
    Ken,
    Just in case the Bosch pumps have a standard mounting system, I have emailed you a page from a Falcon manual showing the mounting flange which is about 150mm dia and screws off. We have made this tool so if it just happens to be the same, let me know. (pdf file too big for AF attachment).

    I would be checking all the things mentioned above, ie, pump inlet filter if there is one, inlet connections, excessive low pressure in tank caused by the fuel cap vent valve.

    And as for the work around the house, with all the stuff I have been doing while on Long Service Leave, when asked how I am going I reply "well, I think I will achieve everything on my list - but not everything on my wife's list !!!!". You know what I mean.

    Chris.
    2004 Scenic I 2.0 auto (Hers)
    2016 Ford Territory (His)
    2004 WRX (Sunday car)

  16. #16
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    The tank not venting is worth investigating especially as the pump works otherwise satisfatorily.

    AFAIK modern cars have a sealed system with a valve from the carbon canister periodically or under certain conditons opening in order to vent?

    For a try out just leave the tank cap off when the fuel is quite low and see how it goes?

    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
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    Default Well thanks All, its been a busy afternoon!!

    Thanks everyone for the replies, and Chris I think the tool design that you sent over will with some adjustment to fit the Laguna pump ring, will be the expensive special tool that Renault are claiming needs to be used to avoid damaging the sealing rings

    Its really just a bridging tool that can supply enough tension to open and close the outer plastic ring that seals the pump into the tank - should be dead easy to make an excellent copy and at a much more realistic price than the UK 55 quid!!

    All the other tips are great - I'd love a blow by blow description of how the pump and fuel system is supposed to work and the optimal or critical pressures to be maintained to give proper fuel delivery.

    With a full tank of fuel it runs well, but is a little hard to start at times. I went over to French Connection this aftertnoon and had a look at a few laguna's that Dave has in for "re-distribition" intending to photograph the relevant parts etc. But while there Dave and I came to a deal on removing a complete tank and its pump.

    Chris did the main work in removing it from the car and I sort of helped, and glad it was ideal in the yard weather, the tank was eventually removed and after draining the fuel off, the tank and its fuel pump were stowed in the back of the Laguna.

    Now I have this its dead easy to see how to refit a new outside the tank filter - back passenger side of the tank and also how to open the seats up to reveal the tank unit from inside the car. I will be taking photographs as I go along and will eventually post them up when my new computer gets built soon!!

    Now if anyone has the pump and system pressures at hand or any tips on the technical setup (data) of the Laguna V6 fuel delivery system, that would help. Hopefully with using the tips already given I will not have to dive straight in and fix. I still want to check and clean all terminals and replace the filter and perhaps fiddle with the tank cap pressures to keep it running.

    I need to buy a few parts new and used, that I should have checked for at Daves, so another visit later on and also a new card key as the one we are using is starting to play up - the usual thing flexing of the card as people push the button causes issues with the wiring joints. So we decided to bite the bullet and get a new one before its finally fails!! and need a new top engine mount stay to stop the engine rocking backwards and forwards - so a few things to source and buy

    I would also still like to source at a reasonable price the Bosch pump new. I've heard lots of high prices bandied about and some I consider as reasonable. I sure know a lot more than I did before I posted this thread - thanks to all on here!!

    I'll post up all details in due course.

    Ken

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    Ken, i might have missed it but assume you have checked the amps the fuel pump draws under normal and when the problem happens? Presumably you have the data from the dealer as to what the normal current draw is and what the fuel pressure ought to be? Does it change when the problem manifests and you open the tank cap?
    Needless to say that this might give a good indication as to what the problem is and can confirm that the pump needs renewing?

    "The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it's the illusion of knowledge"
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    Icon4 I'm trying each idea as the opportunity to check arises.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoBo View Post
    Ken, i might have missed it but assume you have checked the amps the fuel pump draws under normal and when the problem happens? Presumably you have the data from the dealer as to what the normal current draw is and what the fuel pressure ought to be? Does it change when the problem manifests and you open the tank cap?
    Needless to say that this might give a good indication as to what the problem is and can confirm that the pump needs renewing?

    No, Jobo the last time the issue was "fixed" it was under warranty and so no obligation to really tell me anything other than its o.k. and I presumed they had installed some new parts. It ran o.k. and my philosophy is that when something is running o.k. don't bother trying to see why, lest you stuff something up while measuring and checking.

    As far as the petrol tank cap/pressure John Masefield raised this with me too, and it is on my list to check when the fuel level drops to quarter tank on a trip. It didn't seem to make any effect on the night, but I only opened the cap while it was idling at the end of the trip.

    So yes more for me to do. I do have some of that magic contact liquid, that I will coat the terminals/electrical contacts with and see if that makes a difference, it certainly did for the contacts in the tail lights of the Laguna!!

    The drops in voltage that trigger things in modern car electronics are a bit beyond my simplistic understanding - I believe it happens - that it works- but haven't a clue beyond that I must confess.

    Might have to talk to my auto electrician mate

    Thanks Jo

    Ken

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    Icon6 Update on Laguna fuel pump. Luck and a wing and a prayer!!

    I finally removed the Laguna Fuel pump today, not easy to get in and undo the screw ring that holds the pump in.

    I put the replacement secondhand pump that we had removed from one of Dave Cavanagh's wrecks. I just used hand pressure to back off the ring on the old fuel tank and the same with removing the old one from my laguna, just a bit more difficult to get hands onto it, through the opening under the rear seat.

    The reason that I had to replace the pump was because about a month or so ago, on a wet stormy night I was heading back to Melbourne to complete a few things and then return to Echuca and bring my wife back to Melbourne a day or so later. She was attending to family things in Echuca.

    Just near Rochester I had overtaken another car and heard a dull thump like something had hit the tank, and when I stopped to fill with fuel at Heathcote, I put in 98 as it was not much more expensive than 95, then I noticed fuel running onto the service station concourse -B@@ger!!

    Anyway the overflow stopped, and we got rid of the fuel on the ground. I pushed the car away and started it, then drove back to Melbourne. As it turns out that was a bit foolish as a subsequent inspection of the top of the pump, showed that the plastic lid section had cracked

    Had to keep the car going, no time to fit the new pump, so used some plastic tank epoxy repair gunk to seal the cracks, not sure what caused the cracking perhaps fuel vapours reaching electrics as there was a slight soot mark in the vicinity, anyway sealed off the electric connector as well with a fuel resistant silastic style sealant coated over the top of the pump, which was o.k. until I smelt petrol later and found that on a hot day there was vapour escaping from under the sealant (sprayed it with detergent spray and observed area where vapour bubbling out.

    Did a more complete seal with the fuel resistant sealant and that stopped the bubbling and enable me to get back to Melbourne, where I made some enquiries. It seems that the tank relief system back to the charcoal filter can collapse sometimes and cause a blockage and build up of pressure, and in some cases replacement of the pump won't fix problems until that collapsed tube is replaced.

    The pressure relief of the cap as suggested earlier can relieve one of the symptoms, but eventually the tube will need replacing where it goes over the wheel arch I believe. Does anyone have a PDF of the location and route of the tube from tank to charcoal canister?

    Otherwise I will just have to try and check the tube on my car by removing panels, or perhaps I might be able to check one of Dave's wrecks to see where it goes. Found you need several hands to hold things out of the way when refitting the pump and getting the rubber sealing ring to stay in place while the securing ring is tightened down by hand.

    That last inch of tightning was problematical and I may need a proper tool to get enough leverage to lock it into position.

    The tank fuel pump construction is obviously made to work in a plastic tank that expands and contracts in operation and the pump itself is contructed so that the lower half can move up and down with the changes in the tank.

    When I removed the old pump, it was obvious that the lower portion of the pump had been damaged when I went over the speed bump at Avalon Airport, several of the plastic side struts holding the lower filter section were broken and the lower section canted sideways jambing it out of position and bending the lower plastic rim out of shape, probably the reason for the noise when operating with a low level of fuel.

    Anyway the out of shape pump housing is useless and of course with the cracked section at the top, cannot be used even as a spare. I will try and post some photographs that I took later on.

    The original tool that I was trying to use to free the top screwed section, doesn't have enough clearance to operate insitu so I will be making another to get it properly locked in position (three legs to fit against the flange protrusions should do it) lucky that I could remove it by hand pressure as Dave tells me the rings tend to break when getting the pumps out of the tanks.

    Thanks particularly to all that gave me advice including the Renault guys Now to test and see if the seal is o.k. in service.

    Any help with a PDF diagram of the routing of the fuel system pipes would be a bonus.


    Ken

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    Icon14 Thanks "Bob"

    Thanks Bob for the PDF links sent, they are enough to get a good general look at the tank layout section 19 in particular the function of the valves on the tank.

    23 Overpressure/underpressure safety valve (petrol versions only) If the fuel recirculation circuit is blocked, this valve prevents the fuel tank being subjected to over pressure (the tank expands) or underpressure (as fuel is used, the tank collapses inwards)

    It also mentioned that if you are removing the large securing ring nut from the tank,that holds the pump in position it says Note if several hours will elapse between removing and refitting the pump and sender assembly, refit the nut to the fuel tank to prevent it from distorting.

    Fortunately I was all geared up for the changeover, and apart from calling in the Mrs to hold the connectors out of my way it was full speed in closing up the tank!!

    I had used compressed air to clean all the accumulated gunk from the vicinity before undoing the old assembly and of course keeping all naked flames and ignition sources well away during the period it was open.

    Looks like the tracking of the pipe goes over the passenger rear side of the wheel hub and all the relevant stuff I need to check is in that location behind the boot facings.

    Now I wonder what the Mot 1397 tool is like to firmly close the nut to its lock point - knowing me I will probably over engineer my made up tool.

    Thanks again.

    Ken

  22. #22
    bob
    bob is offline
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    Default Fuel tank sender tech note

    G'day Ken,

    that's what it's about mate, sharing the knowledge

    Google is your friend with all this stuff, have a look at....
    www.uas-bg.com/meganii/eng/5007A.pdf
    and this one too....
    http://www.vlineorg.com/clio/pdfs/in...5CUP_03_FR.pdf

    there's a few images in the first one, and most of the stuff you wanted to know before ! Can't see any photos of the bloody tool on quick search though, bound to be out there, just got to hold your mouth right.

    BTW that RU site is a doozy, I'll stick that link in the manuals download thread.

    cheers,
    Bob

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