Dauphine rear suspension
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  1. #1
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    Default Dauphine rear suspension

    Further to my previous thread I've had a camber issue(see Aug 2009) where I eventually lowered the gearbox mounts by approx12mm using spacer washers between the cross member and the gearbox mounts .The shock absorbers are not Renault (mini cooper) and the three mounts were all replaced.The rear axle is definitely not sitting square i.e the left wheel looks too far forward , whilst the right looks ok.

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    Default trunions

    the pivot pins on each side of the swing axle run in roller bearings that chop out the ones on my old 2cv were so bad you could see the wheel move back and forward as you let out the clutch ,as you can imagine a little bit of movement at the gearbox relates to quite a lot a meter out at the wheel ,a period mod was to fit two bits of flat bar from the axle tube back to the chassis rail to locate it[the longer the better ] ,they used a rubber bush that was located on a band that went around the axle tube ,there was a lot of dirt roads around in those days so those trunion bushes coped a caneing .my dad had a mate who baught a 2cv to drive to perth from melbourne with wife and 2 kids rolLed it out of kalgolie drove it to perth he was so impressed with it he bought another for the return trip ,PUGS

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    Default In my humble opinion....

    Quote Originally Posted by chris hartwell View Post
    Further to my previous thread I've had a camber issue(see Aug 2009) where I eventually lowered the gearbox mounts by approx12mm using spacer washers between the cross member and the gearbox mounts .The shock absorbers are not Renault (mini cooper) and the three mounts were all replaced.The rear axle is definitely not sitting square i.e the left wheel looks too far forward , whilst the right looks ok.

    I dunno about the packing washers between the cross mamber and the mounts....I reckon this allows too much movement at the bolts when the engine is under load or heavy breaking and worst case the fan might come awful close to going through the radiator depending on how it is mounted.(front or rear)

    I reckon a solid block of plywood shaped to fit with the four mounting holes drilled in it gives the same effect on improving camber but is much more rigid.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    the pivot pins on each side of the swing axle run in roller bearings that chop out the ones on my old 2cv were so bad you could see the wheel move back and forward as you let out the clutch ,as you can imagine a little bit of movement at the gearbox relates to quite a lot a meter out at the wheel ,a period mod was to fit two bits of flat bar from the axle tube back to the chassis rail to locate it[the longer the better ] ,they used a rubber bush that was located on a band that went around the axle tube ,there was a lot of dirt roads around in those days so those trunion bushes coped a caneing .my dad had a mate who baught a 2cv to drive to perth from melbourne with wife and 2 kids rolLed it out of kalgolie drove it to perth he was so impressed with it he bought another for the return trip ,PUGS

    That's an interesting idea Pugwash, I guess this was to reduce the load on the trunions, any chance of a sketch??
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris hartwell View Post
    Further to my previous thread I've had a camber issue(see Aug 2009) where I eventually lowered the gearbox mounts by approx12mm using spacer washers between the cross member and the gearbox mounts .The shock absorbers are not Renault (mini cooper) and the three mounts were all replaced.The rear axle is definitely not sitting square i.e the left wheel looks too far forward , whilst the right looks ok.
    Which answers my second question.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by pugwash View Post
    the pivot pins on each side of the swing axle run in roller bearings that chop out the ones on my old 2cv were so bad you could see the wheel move back and forward as you let out the clutch ,as you can imagine a little bit of movement at the gearbox relates to quite a lot a meter out at the wheel ,a period mod was to fit two bits of flat bar from the axle tube back to the chassis rail to locate it[the longer the better ] ,they used a rubber bush that was located on a band that went around the axle tube ,there was a lot of dirt roads around in those days so those trunion bushes coped a caneing .my dad had a mate who baught a 2cv to drive to perth from melbourne with wife and 2 kids rolLed it out of kalgolie drove it to perth he was so impressed with it he bought another for the return trip ,PUGS
    I think you mean 4CV. Anyway I agree with the description of the problem. I replaced my needle rollers with a bronze bush and Molyslip grease years ago. The trunnion pins were later increased in diameter (and maybe steel quality was improved too). Most of the period location devices were poorly engineered as they didn't take account of the arc of travel of the swing axle.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I replaced my needle rollers with a bronze bush and Molyslip grease years ago. The trunnion pins were later increased in diameter (and maybe steel quality was improved too). Most of the period location devices were poorly engineered as they didn't take account of the arc of travel of the swing axle.

    Cheers
    I replaced the trunnion bearings on my 4CV and Dauphine with a turned nylon (or some other engineering plastic, I don't remember) as the shaft was too badly worn to refit needle rollers. The result was totally satisfactory.

    At that time (late sixties) they were available off the shelf from a parts place in Top Ryde long since gone. It appeared that the Renault owning boss had a set made for his own car but also had a few hundred spares!
    Michael
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelr View Post
    I replaced the trunnion bearings on my 4CV and Dauphine with a turned nylon (or some other engineering plastic, I don't remember) as the shaft was too badly worn to refit needle rollers. The result was totally satisfactory.

    At that time (late sixties) they were available off the shelf from a parts place in Top Ryde long since gone. It appeared that the Renault owning boss had a set made for his own car but also had a few hundred spares!
    I remember those turned nylon bushes too, again late 1960s. They did the job for a while but tended to get loose. Then there were graphite impregnated nylon bushes which I had turned and used for a while. Inevitably the pins were grooved and replacement needle-cups don't help then. The bronze has worked pretty well so far.
    JohnW

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    Default Moving Axles !!!

    This problem has been worked with in many ways, and the best I have seen was done by a friend who had a very nice cream Dauphine in S Africa. He machined and hardened some 1mm walled steel sleeves, that were a light press fit on the pivot pins on the swing arm. And phos-bronze bushes that pressed into the bearing cups. Bearing cups were fitted with a grease nipple so they could be greased from the outside. This setup lasted for years on his car which got a lot of city driving, and was easy to fix when excessive movement was felt in the wheels. I feel was a better solution than what came from the factory.

    On my Dauph, I went one further and made similar strut bars to the R8/10, but to a pivot bracket on the nose of the gearbox. But also noted that the back axle assembly/motor was not properly aligned to the front suspension/chassis. About 3-5 mm out. Once I also aligned this, the car handled fantastically,

    Ray geckoeng

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    I too replaced the needle roller bearings in the trunions on Kermit the 4CV but it not fully resolve the play at the wheels. On investigation, it was found that play in the splines into the universals and a bit in the universals themselves contributed significant to wheel play.

    The solution was to ream out a recess in the axle tube yolk to accept a bearing and then to fix a collar around the drive shaft in order for the bearing inner to fit over. Now there is zero arching of the drive shaft from this point and consequently no play at the wheel. An added benefit is that the brake shoes are also correctly aligned with the drum.

    See some of the mods done on Kermit via another thread.

    Colin

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    Default straps

    another interesting mod that was fitted to my 8G was the fitting of a length of fibre belt from the crossmember down under the axle tube and up the other side to be attached to the other side of the crossmember this limited the amount the axle could drop ,preventing the wheel from tucking under ,i remember driving my 2cv home from tech one night ,taking a railway underpass at speed ,only to Have the gearshift fly forward and gearchanging became almost imposible, limped home in second only to find the next morning that the 4 bolts that held the gearbox to the crosmember had come loose and the trans was being held up by the shift rod ,Also explained why it had been shudering like mad in reverse for some time ,pays to check these things before they develope into something serious ,thing i took the rear seat out ,remover the little plate that axcessed the fuel guage and was able to jack the trans up and fit some new nuts ,got out of jail that time .PUGS

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    Track rods that have been manufactured for my 4CV.

    They are pivoting in line with the trunions. I have been asured the steel is high strength stainless steel.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dauphine rear suspension-dscn0334.jpg   Dauphine rear suspension-dscn0333.jpg   Dauphine rear suspension-dscn0332.jpg  

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    Default Mystery explained.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    Track rods that have been manufactured for my 4CV.

    They are pivoting in line with the trunions. I have been asured the steel is high strength stainless steel.

    Excellent pics Sunroof, I have seen the factory track rods on R10s and they face foreward but this is an alternative I hadn't thought of.

    I have not worn a set of needle bearings as yet let alone damaged the trunions. do you think this is a worthwhile mod considering roads have improved somewhat and many cars never see dirt roads these days?? Or is there more to it?

    HNN
    Graham
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    Sorry, not particuarly au fait with swing axles.

    I assume the track rods are designed are to prevent toe angle changes or similar under suspension load?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno View Post
    Sorry, not particuarly au fait with swing axles.

    I assume the track rods are designed are to prevent toe angle changes or similar under suspension load?
    If you imagine for example under heavy braking, without these support rods in place, there is a considerable strain on the inner pivot of a swing axle. I'm sure that is why it was a standard addition to the 8's & 10's
    cheers,

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Excellent pics Sunroof, I have seen the factory track rods on R10s and they face foreward but this is an alternative I hadn't thought of.

    I have not worn a set of needle bearings as yet let alone damaged the trunions. do you think this is a worthwhile mod considering roads have improved somewhat and many cars never see dirt roads these days?? Or is there more to it?

    HNN
    Graham
    Hi
    In the "good old days" the trunion bearing were always a problem wearing out. Also the cars probably did not do such big milages as we expect today. Those standard track rods, sort of worked with the plastic replacement bearings. Standards were lower then

    I think Renault themselves answered the question. The new model, the R8, had proper track rods which pivioted in line with the trunions. These take the foward and back, wheel forces so the trunion wear was no longer an issue.

    The units suggested by Sunroof look like a good idea. For long life I suggest you make some like this.

    In my day to get a bit of negative camber we just cut a coil or two off the springs with an angle grinder. Perhaps not too scientific but it was cheap and nasty You had to improve something because the cross ply tires had little grip.
    jaahn

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    If you take them forward on 4CV, Dauphine, Floride in a similar manner to R8/10 then you will foul the fuel tank. If you take them to the rear as mine are then you cannot fit a standard exhaust as they foul that. Move the fuel tank to the front is an option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    In the "good old days" the trunion bearing were always a problem wearing out. Also the cars probably did not do such big milages as we expect today. Those standard track rods, sort of worked with the plastic replacement bearings. Standards were lower then

    I think Renault themselves answered the question. The new model, the R8, had proper track rods which pivioted in line with the trunions. These take the foward and back, wheel forces so the trunion wear was no longer an issue. jaahn
    The later cars, which don't have trunnion wear problems as a rule, had larger diameter trunnion pins and, I suspect, better steel than the near WWII cars of the late 40s and early to mid-50s. I'm not convinced that the track rods do that much with respect to trunnion loads as they are mounted on rubber silentbloc bushes at the front rather than a solid mount that would take load. So the trunnion bearings still really take the load and the impacts of the swing axles' movements and wheel impacts.

    I suspect, but really don't know, that the track rods on the later cars were mostly to keep the whole suspension-engine unit lined up properly given more power and more flexible mountings than the earlier cars.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Rose View Post


    I too replaced the needle roller bearings in the trunions on Kermit the 4CV but it not fully resolve the play at the wheels. On investigation, it was found that play in the splines into the universals and a bit in the universals themselves contributed significant to wheel play.

    The solution was to ream out a recess in the axle tube yolk to accept a bearing and then to fix a collar around the drive shaft in order for the bearing inner to fit over. Now there is zero arching of the drive shaft from this point and consequently no play at the wheel. An added benefit is that the brake shoes are also correctly aligned with the drum.

    See some of the mods done on Kermit via another thread.

    Colin
    Very elegant, that second bearing. Colin Pauley in Adelaide did exactly the same thing with his 4CV.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by geckoeng View Post
    This problem has been worked with in many ways, and the best I have seen was done by a friend who had a very nice cream Dauphine in S Africa. He machined and hardened some 1mm walled steel sleeves, that were a light press fit on the pivot pins on the swing arm. And phos-bronze bushes that pressed into the bearing cups. Bearing cups were fitted with a grease nipple so they could be greased from the outside. This setup lasted for years on his car which got a lot of city driving, and was easy to fix when excessive movement was felt in the wheels. I feel was a better solution than what came from the factory.

    On my Dauph, I went one further and made similar strut bars to the R8/10, but to a pivot bracket on the nose of the gearbox. But also noted that the back axle assembly/motor was not properly aligned to the front suspension/chassis. About 3-5 mm out. Once I also aligned this, the car handled fantastically,

    Ray geckoeng
    Another elegant solution. I have bronze bushes that are a light interference fit on the (badly scored) trunnion pins and slide in the bearing cup, with moly grease to lubricate.

    My bronze bushes were intended to be greaseable too Ray, but I failed to find anything hard enough to drill the bearing cups to fit the desired grease nipple.

    Best wishes for 2011 too!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    The later cars, which don't have trunnion wear problems as a rule, had larger diameter trunnion pins and, I suspect, better steel than the near WWII cars of the late 40s and early to mid-50s. I'm not convinced that the track rods do that much with respect to trunnion loads as they are mounted on rubber silentbloc bushes at the front rather than a solid mount that would take load. So the trunnion bearings still really take the load and the impacts of the swing axles' movements and wheel impacts.

    I suspect, but really don't know, that the track rods on the later cars were mostly to keep the whole suspension-engine unit lined up properly given more power and more flexible mountings than the earlier cars.
    Hi;
    The R8 etc had very flexible engine/gearbox mounts as you point out. So the track rods did absorb the loads I think. And yes they were there to keep the alignment correct with the felexible mountings. The mountings were very different to the very solid earlier types.

    However the reason behind the flexible mountings was to do with the radial tires primarily and noise and harshness isolation generally. The R8 had radials standard fitting on all models. The first model to do so. These tires require a low for and aft compliance for the wheels to 'tuneout' the low speed harshness that radials give. Those who had fitted radials to ordinary cars can remember the thump on hard roads from radials(concrete joins!!). The French developed the suspension technology to use radials, in conjunction with Mitchelin, and make them everyday tires. The R8 was a milestone on this road. Also a lot of other things as well.

    I recall the great "radial tuned suspension" from Holden 20 years later
    Jaahn

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi;
    The R8 etc had very flexible engine/gearbox mounts as you point out. So the track rods did absorb the loads I think. And yes they were there to keep the alignment correct with the felexible mountings. The mountings were very different to the very solid earlier types.

    However the reason behind the flexible mountings was to do with the radial tires primarily and noise and harshness isolation generally. The R8 had radials standard fitting on all models. The first model to do so. These tires require a low for and aft compliance for the wheels to 'tuneout' the low speed harshness that radials give. Those who had fitted radials to ordinary cars can remember the thump on hard roads from radials(concrete joins!!). The French developed the suspension technology to use radials, in conjunction with Mitchelin, and make them everyday tires. The R8 was a milestone on this road. Also a lot of other things as well.

    I recall the great "radial tuned suspension" from Holden 20 years later
    Jaahn
    Thanks Jaahn,

    Fascinating. The R8's ride and absorbtion of steel-belted radial thump remains exemplary even now. All down to a correct combination of tyre pressures, unsprung to sprung weight ratio, suspension compliance (including those big rubber buffers), suspension mounting compliance and shock absorber characteristics. It all looks totally simple and conventional, but the engineering is spot on (ignoring the swing axles of course, which were getting a bit dated by the 1960s). Mind you, BMC were still using lever shock absorbers.......

    And yes, the Holden RTS was and remains a huge joke!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    I think you will find that Colin adopted my solution which was published in detail in 2006. If the administrator can find the expanded explanation and photos from that time it would fully explain the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Rose View Post
    I think you will find that Colin adopted my solution which was published in detail in 2006. If the administrator can find the expanded explanation and photos from that time it would fully explain the process.
    That would be great. Hope it appears.

    Thanks Colin.
    JohnW

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    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

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    Default As an aside

    Kays rent a car had r 10 s in the 70s and found customers were wrecking the michies on kerbs so they fitted cheeper cross plys only to find the brakes griped better than the tyres and a lot of there cars ended up with front end damage from brakes locking up in the wet ,giving these cars a bad reputation due to ,cost cutting measures .PUGS

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