R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild
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  1. #1
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    Default R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild

    About to get down to it, all the machining has been done and I'm about to begin reassembly. Any last thoughts for me?

    Also, looking for paint to do the block.

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    http://www.tcpglobal.com/SprayPaintD...mNo=DUP+DE1610

    For that block is that about right, or does anyone have a better source for the right stuff?

    And what color should the oil pan be painted?

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Any mods that you are doing? Do you have a manual?

    I found that the paper seals under the sleeves is not good for a high performance engine and replace mine with brass shimstock with the required thickness and use only normal silicone sealant at the shimstock end to keep the water out. Remember the water has only a max of 15 psi and 180 deg F.

    That will be my only mod on a non modded motor.

    Regards
    Frans.
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    I am not sure about R8 Gordini engine colour but a normal R8 should be a green/grey colour. Only the generator and starter are satin black. The gearbox would also be the same green colour. I think it may be similar to Buick green. As I said I don't know whether an 8G is the same but I imagine that they would be. Come on where are our G experts.

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    From memory my G block was black the first time I pulled it apart. I then Painted it blue which looked excellent with the rest of the car. I also saw that the rear swing axles where orrigionally green but my gearbox was not painted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I am not sure about R8 Gordini engine colour but a normal R8 should be a green/grey colour. Only the generator and starter are satin black. The gearbox would also be the same green colour. I think it may be similar to Buick green. As I said I don't know whether an 8G is the same but I imagine that they would be. Come on where are our G experts.
    I know I may be wrong (often am) but is it only the early gearboxes which are green? I know that 3 of the 4 boxes which I have pulled are not painted at all, and the 3 1108 motors which I took to the scrap metal last week were black. Not Gs of course but???

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Where's Simon when you need him?

    On my R1132, I used the photo from one of the Workshop manuals (Gregory's I think) which has a photo of an engine bound for AUS on the cover as my "guide". On that (and certainly most R8 and R10's I've seen) the engine block is black, the gearbox unpainted. I painted my sump black as well.

    I have a better photo but can't find it on my PC, maybe I haven't scanned it yet.
    KB
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild-19-06-04.jpg  
    KB


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    I believe they turned black just before the R10. I still have my R1132 1965 original motor and it is all green. My Floride S is also all green. The Caravelle R1131 is all green except the block that is black but was a replacement block from a late Caravelle. All R10's are black all over well my 3 are. R10 and R8 gearboxes were not painted you are correct. But Floride S and Caravelle R1131 were painted as they were Dauphine Gordini boxes. I was never sure about the head on R10's they may have not been painted but it comes off so fast who knows. I have heaps of photos of Gordini engines but they are all black and white photos and not clear enough to determine the colour. I think the photo on the workshop manual may have been from an R10 if I could find my copy I would check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Any mods that you are doing? Do you have a manual?

    I found that the paper seals under the sleeves is not good for a high performance engine and replace mine with brass shimstock with the required thickness and use only normal silicone sealant at the shimstock end to keep the water out. Remember the water has only a max of 15 psi and 180 deg F.

    That will be my only mod on a non modded motor.

    Regards
    Frans.
    Keeping it stock. My head is a tad thin so I'm going with an uprated headgasket from Mecaparts. It's thicker to take up the slack for these heads getting older and skinnier. It's not crazy thin, though. I do have a couple of different manuals, but those things do leave quite a bit to the imagination, so I was hoping for some insider knowledge.

    What is brass shimstock? Do you have any pics?

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    Any mods that you are doing? Do you have a manual?

    I found that the paper seals under the sleeves is not good for a high performance engine and replace mine with brass shimstock with the required thickness and use only normal silicone sealant at the shimstock end to keep the water out. Remember the water has only a max of 15 psi and 180 deg F.

    That will be my only mod on a non modded motor.

    Regards
    Frans.
    Hi Frans,

    I've had issue with the liner seals of the Pug early XN motors.

    These days I clean the area up with a brass rotary brush and put a small bead of Wurth 250 hi temp silicon on the block face.

    Never had a problem once this procedure was used.

    http://www.wurth.com.au/cataloguevie...f=A04_0355.pdf

    cheers

    Robert

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordinowitz View Post
    Keeping it stock. My head is a tad thin so I'm going with an uprated headgasket from Mecaparts. It's thicker to take up the slack for these heads getting older and skinnier. It's not crazy thin, though. I do have a couple of different manuals, but those things do leave quite a bit to the imagination, so I was hoping for some insider knowledge.

    What is brass shimstock? Do you have any pics?
    Hi,
    I never had troubles in the far past with the original paper shims under the liners. They are very thin and are not really gaskets but shims to get the liner protrusion correct. The block and liner faces must be 100% CLEAN when fitted, and no rust or dirt falling down from around the block etc. Sealant was not required.

    However replacing them with brass shim is OK if you can cut them well and they are perfectly flat. You would also have to get the correct thickness so the liner protrusion is correct and even between the 4 liners. My experience is if this is done correctlyand the protrusion is set close to the maximum and they are all even, then there are no problems. If not then problems arise. If there is very little or no protrusion they will always leak. Note the protrusion is only measured in several 'thou'.

    Brass shim stock are just thin sheets of brass rolled to set thicknesses. They are like brass sheets of 'paper'. Like feeler gauges in very large size. They are used in engineering applications when you need them to set a thickness, just like the liners. They are available in a range of thicknesses and shapes and most engineering supply outlets would supply them.
    jaahn

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordinowitz View Post
    Keeping it stock. My head is a tad thin so I'm going with an uprated headgasket from Mecaparts. It's thicker to take up the slack for these heads getting older and skinnier. It's not crazy thin, though. I do have a couple of different manuals, but those things do leave quite a bit to the imagination, so I was hoping for some insider knowledge.

    What is brass shimstock? Do you have any pics?
    My process is as follows: With the block and sleeves clean on old engines I would insert every sleeve in a position without any seals and then number them. From now on they will always be in those positions. Then with a straight edge across the top of the block I will measure with a feeler gauge how much each sleeve is lying below the block surface and note it down. I will then go and buy shimstock of various thicknesses to lift the sleeves .005" above the the block. Cut them in circles as seen in the pics and fit each shim on its sleeve and with a sealant on i will then insert the sleeves in there pots. Clamp them down immediately with washers or what ever you normally use to prevent the sleeves from popping out. When you fit the head and torque it down the gasket will indent where the sleeve is proud and make a proper seal.

    In the pics you will see some old ones that I kept and you can see the different sizes as well. One is .003" and the other .005". You can see how it fits over the sleeve bottom and you can see what shimstock looks like.

    I noticed that on the new blocks that take the O-rings, they are much more accurate and on a normal refreshed engine I won't do anything to it. If it is a competition engine I have a completely different procedure.

    I would not be worried with a thinner head as you mention. You have to measure the CC's and only then you can say "the head is too thin".

    jaahn:

    I agree with you because these engines were made in millions successfully with the paper seals. My opinion is that when you build a competition/race engine that has a bit ADHD the paper seals is not up to it. With a higher compression the pressure in the combustion chamber is much higher as well and that pressure goes down the piston side and in behind the ring and force the ring out hard against the sleeve. The harder this is the more friction there is and the more the piston ring assembly tries to losen the sleeve. This motion is blocked by the head gasket on top and the paper seals at the bottom and both of them are paper and compressable. The slightest movement in one of the sleeves starts a problem. It might be 10,000 or 50.000 k's later. The amount of times the piston goes up and down is uncountable and every time the play that the sleeve has developed is increased until you have a blown gasket or water leak at the base of the sleeve.

    Robmac:

    Do you then leave the seals out or do you put them back with the sealant?

    All the above is only my opinion and everybody is entitled to my opinion

    Frans.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild-img_0031.jpg   R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild-img_0033.jpg   R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild-img_0034.jpg   R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild-img_0035.jpg   R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild-img_0036.jpg   R8 G (1134) Engine Rebuild-img_0037.jpg  

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    Hi Frans,

    Did you vere use the plastic rings on the bottom of the sleeves?
    Was wondering if they would give the same problems as the paper ones.
    Did a R12 high performance engine with the plastic ones but didn't keep the machine for
    50 000 k's to see if it would hold up.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans View Post
    My process is as follows: With the block and sleeves clean on old engines I would insert every sleeve in a position without any seals and then number them. From now on they will always be in those positions. Then with a straight edge across the top of the block I will measure with a feeler gauge how much each sleeve is lying below the block surface and note it down. I will then go and buy shimstock of various thicknesses to lift the sleeves .005" above the the block. Cut them in circles as seen in the pics and fit each shim on its sleeve and with a sealant on i will then insert the sleeves in there pots. Clamp them down immediately with washers or what ever you normally use to prevent the sleeves from popping out. When you fit the head and torque it down the gasket will indent where the sleeve is proud and make a proper seal.

    In the pics you will see some old ones that I kept and you can see the different sizes as well. One is .003" and the other .005". You can see how it fits over the sleeve bottom and you can see what shimstock looks like.

    I noticed that on the new blocks that take the O-rings, they are much more accurate and on a normal refreshed engine I won't do anything to it. If it is a competition engine I have a completely different procedure.

    I would not be worried with a thinner head as you mention. You have to measure the CC's and only then you can say "the head is too thin".

    jaahn:

    I agree with you because these engines were made in millions successfully with the paper seals. My opinion is that when you build a competition/race engine that has a bit ADHD the paper seals is not up to it. With a higher compression the pressure in the combustion chamber is much higher as well and that pressure goes down the piston side and in behind the ring and force the ring out hard against the sleeve. The harder this is the more friction there is and the more the piston ring assembly tries to losen the sleeve. This motion is blocked by the head gasket on top and the paper seals at the bottom and both of them are paper and compressable. The slightest movement in one of the sleeves starts a problem. It might be 10,000 or 50.000 k's later. The amount of times the piston goes up and down is uncountable and every time the play that the sleeve has developed is increased until you have a blown gasket or water leak at the base of the sleeve.

    Robmac:

    Do you then leave the seals out or do you put them back with the sealant?

    All the above is only my opinion and everybody is entitled to my opinion

    Frans.
    I use the wurth 250 mainly on the free expanding liner version of seals.

    These are a stepped liner that has a flat cylindrical neoprene seal that that goes between the liner and the block. The seal is made by liner being pulled down by the head face.

    I never put sealant on the liner - they are new and clean and not pitted and seal OK. In many cases the block isn't nearly as good and is slightly pitted. I apply a 2 mm bead of silicon to the block face and immediately drop in the liner with seal fitted and then fit clamping bolts to pull the liner into place.

    The silicon I see as belt and braces.

    The Renaults use what Pug call compressed liners - used in the later engines.

    The gasket kits have a selection of different thickness liner seal because it is necessary to set liner protrusion with a dial gauge and the different seals allows a few combinations.

    The supplied seals are either aluminium or a transparent mylar like material depending on the brand. I still use a smile of silicon and seat the liners with bolts and washers for 24 hrs before doing any more assembly.

    I think brass liners seals are the go. Copper may anneal and let the liner sink and effect protrusion. I would still use a controlled amount of Wurth 250 - I sleep better at nights.

    Some of V6 peugeot fans fit o rings to the liners bottoms but that is a big job and you need to use modified liners from ever on.

    And to state the obvious always retain the liners immediately the head comes off (twist and not lift). If the liner lift a bees dick crud falls in and never seal again!

    I've found that brass conical shape wire brushes in the battery drill are best for cleaning inside the water jacket and block liner seal faces.

    Hope I'm not repeating what everyone already knows!

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    I'm impressed. I can't imagine how you could take the roll and cut out the shimstock to make gaskets from them! What do you use for the job? Do you have a small army of elves working for you somewhere?

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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Where's Simon when you need him? KB
    Where is Simon. I really miss his contribution on threads. Looks like he hasn't logged in since 30th October??? Anyone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I use the wurth 250 mainly on the free expanding liner version of seals.

    These are a stepped liner that has a flat cylindrical neoprene seal that that goes between the liner and the block. The seal is made by liner being pulled down by the head face.

    I never put sealant on the liner - they are new and clean and not pitted and seal OK. In many cases the block isn't nearly as good and is slightly pitted. I apply a 2 mm bead of silicon to the block face and immediately drop in the liner with seal fitted and then fit clamping bolts to pull the liner into place.

    The silicon I see as belt and braces.

    The Renaults use what Pug call compressed liners - used in the later engines.

    The gasket kits have a selection of different thickness liner seal because it is necessary to set liner protrusion with a dial gauge and the different seals allows a few combinations.

    The supplied seals are either aluminium or a transparent mylar like material depending on the brand. I still use a smile of silicon and seat the liners with bolts and washers for 24 hrs before doing any more assembly.

    I think brass liners seals are the go. Copper may anneal and let the liner sink and effect protrusion. I would still use a controlled amount of Wurth 250 - I sleep better at nights.

    Some of V6 peugeot fans fit o rings to the liners bottoms but that is a big job and you need to use modified liners from ever on.

    And to state the obvious always retain the liners immediately the head comes off (twist and not lift). If the liner lift a bees dick crud falls in and never seal again!

    I've found that brass conical shape wire brushes in the battery drill are best for cleaning inside the water jacket and block liner seal faces.

    Hope I'm not repeating what everyone already knows!


    No fear of repeating what everyone else already knows because the fact is not everyone does...Personally I find all this quite fascinating and educational.

    "Share the knowlege".
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordinowitz View Post
    I'm impressed. I can't imagine how you could take the roll and cut out the shimstock to make gaskets from them! What do you use for the job? Do you have a small army of elves working for you somewhere?
    I take a divider (the one with 2 sharp tips) and scribe the ID and OD on the shimstock. Go round and round a few times and then cut with scissors on the scribed line. I use a small sharp aviation tinsnip that is good at cutting bends. The scribed line sort of assist the snips in following the radius.

    TLJakes, Yes I have used the seals you are talking about but I would classify them the same as paper seals. They are still not as hard as brass. I think that plastic will be compressable as well.

    Regards
    Frans
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