Renault 10 cooling
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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Default Renault 10 cooling

    Hi Froggers, sorry to bring up something that's probably been covered over n over before, but has anyone tried deleting the R10 engine fan and using a thermo fan instead ? I'm using my 10 as an every day car for a while and the 6 blade fan is quite noisy (very effective though) and since i'm trying to quieten the noisy little bugger i was considering fitting my R17 TL thermo fan which fits nicely behind the radiator. As it is designed to suck air i'd need to look at reversing the blades or the polarity of the fan motor to push instead. I just don't want to introduce a problem by doing it though

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    cheers,

    John

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Hi Froggers, sorry to bring up something that's probably been covered over n over before, but has anyone tried deleting the R10 engine fan and using a thermo fan instead ? I'm using my 10 as an every day car for a while and the 6 blade fan is quite noisy (very effective though) and since i'm trying to quieten the noisy little bugger i was considering fitting my R17 TL thermo fan which fits nicely behind the radiator. As it is designed to suck air i'd need to look at reversing the blades or the polarity of the fan motor to push instead. I just don't want to introduce a problem by doing it though
    There are no problems running fans "pushing air" instead of "drawing air".

    However, you need to reverse the fan blades as well the direction or the motor.

    It may be easier to buy a Supercheap fan which is designed to allow blades to be reversed. The 12 inch fans are around $70 and are of a good quality.

    If the R17 fan has reversible blades you will be fine.

    These fans can pull 12-15 amps off 12 volt supply so you will definitely need to use a relay controlled by the temperature switch and a use a minimum of 6mm auto cable.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    From listening around the traps for years, the best idea I could think of these days would be to get a 2 speed fan set-up
    Constant low speed then high speed for extra cooling when the temp gets above a preset temperature.

    The reason I believe the problem arises from is the thermo fan being mounted on the core of the rad restricts the flow of air somewhat.

    I haven't done anything to my R10 in this respect as yet but it's an idea I have.
    A Peugeot 306/405 etc bitron relay set-up might be the go as they work at 2 speeds, low and flat out.
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    In the same vein you might try this:

    Install an R12 nylon bladed fan and adapt the R12 cooling shroud to fit the radiator. The offset blades on the R12 were supposed to reduce noise. From memory the diameter of the fan is a lot smaller than that of the R10. If you feel the urge you could trim the blades to further reduce diameter.

    On the plennum side of the radiator you will need to install your thermostatically controlled pusher fan. THis means you get a constant flow thru the core and the boost when needed.

    That said, the drain on the power supply is not trivial and will offset any power gains you hope to make.

    If you want to make a HUGE boost to the cooling system get the radiator professionally cleaned.

    Sorry to state the bleeding obvious but there is very little natural flow thru the radiator with the R10 set up in the same way there is with a front mounted radiator. That means the engine will always overheat unless there is air being forced thru the core. The faster you go the faster it overheats.

    There is supposed to be some air flow created because there is a high pressure area around the vents above the radiator and a low pressure zone under the car. The flow from high to low is assisted by having all the engine compartment rubbers and the engine bay under pannels in place. There have been discussions here about the effectiveness of this flow because many have reported these things make little difference.


    P

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    Push or pull which side of the radiator is it going to be?

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    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Exfrogger,

    I would argue, the engine pans make little difference, the seal between radiator and bootlid makes a big difference.
    KB


  7. #7
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post

    That said, the drain on the power supply is not trivial and will offset any power gains you hope to make.

    P


    Peter, Lets do some sums:

    What would you estimate the engine fan to consume? Since it noticeable let take a guess of nice even Ihp.
    I hp = 750 watts about, I'd guess it a lot more, but let's be conservative.

    ================================================== ========================
    What does the electric fan draw, lets say 15 amps as a round number at 14 volts because the car has an alternator(?)

    P= 15x 14 = 210 w
    But of course there is conversion efficiency from the alternator, lets say a loss of 33% as a good conservative figure (which also covers powering the relay coil)

    So actual power could be 280 w

    ================================================== ========================

    So, on most conservative ratings, the engine fan consumes 750 watts
    and electric fan consumes 280w

    In my book that's a saving of over 50% energy consumed to drive the fan. Considering that with a clean radiator, the fan may only run 50% time, depending on vehicle usage it makes sense to fit an electric fan.


    HKP:

    Unless you get a two speed fan it make no sense to run the fan in a HI/LO speed set up, if you can get a two speed you could run it at lo speed all the time and run it on high on demand of the temperature switch. Although this will slow down warm up. So ideal would be to use two temperature switches and two relays, one pair for up-to -temperature: low speed and the other for above-temperature: high speed. Silicon chip have a controller kit to do this I believe.

    Bitron controllers IMHO add another level of complexity and also have aircon head pressure sensing built in and may not work at a suitable temperatures for the the low pressure R10 cooling system. We also hear issues about their reliability.


    EDIT:

    FWIW I would fit against the radiator, either inside or out.
    Just make sure the airflow is in the same direction as is /was provided by the engine fan.

    On vehicles with aircon condensers and oil/transmission coolers in front of the radiator, I like to fit fan inside the engine bay, on the opposite side to condenser because the air drawn by the fan must go through the radiator. If they are on the other side you need to seal the gap between the condenser and radiator to make the fan push air through the radiator.
    Last edited by robmac; 10th December 2010 at 06:33 PM.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, all my engine bay seals are excellent, radiator would preferably be renewed as the core looks quite aged, side pans in place (even though they're not needed but at least they're not taking up space in the shed), temp gauge fitted indicates temp well controlled even going up through Heyson tunnels steady climb (freeway to Adelaide hills) on 35 degree day. Haven't tried a really hot day yet. Thermo fan was planned to be on plenum side (pushing toward engine) with thermostat fitted, relay & suitable wiring. My concern was that it should be fine in theory but we all know theory & practice don't always go together & I was hoping someone had this set up in there 8 or 10 & could say yep, works a treat or no, that set up struggles on a hot day. Robmac, thanks for the calculations, I'm impressed !
    cheers,

    John

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-man View Post
    Thanks guys, all my engine bay seals are excellent, radiator would preferably be renewed as the core looks quite aged, side pans in place (even though they're not needed but at least they're not taking up space in the shed), temp gauge fitted indicates temp well controlled even going up through Heyson tunnels steady climb (freeway to Adelaide hills) on 35 degree day. Haven't tried a really hot day yet. Thermo fan was planned to be on plenum side (pushing toward engine) with thermostat fitted, relay & suitable wiring. My concern was that it should be fine in theory but we all know theory & practice don't always go together & I was hoping someone had this set up in there 8 or 10 & could say yep, works a treat or no, that set up struggles on a hot day. Robmac, thanks for the calculations, I'm impressed !
    Hi John,

    Sharing knowledge is what AF is all about.

    When you place the fan temperature switch, may I suggest you mimic where it is in the 504, that is in the bottom tank near the bottom hose spigot.

    Come to think of it, you could probably use a 504 temperature switch. Ken at Caravelle sells them for around $20 new. They turn on at 80c and off at around 75c. You do need a relay. A lot simpler than the electronic units with the thermistor . These are a pita to seal under pressure.

    I have a M22 (?) tap which I have used to tap a 3/4 brass plumbing lock nut, bored out to 20.5mm and tapped To make the solder in fitting for the lower tank to take the switch.

    cheers

    Rob

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    I assume that a 210 watt electric fan will only push/pull about 1/3 the amount of air that the 750 watt mechanical fan does. Or are the blades on the electric fan more efficient? I guess what I am saying is, depending on the efficiency of the fan blades pushing or pulling the same quantity of air would take the same amount of HP regardless of the power source mechanical or electric. The question could be do we need the same amount of air? Or have I missed some thing?

    The efficency loss of an automotive altenator is usually between 40 and 50%. The loss of the fan motor is perhaps 10 -20% and then the relay also has a loss. I am not sure that there can be a saving except when the thermostate turns the fan off. This occurs on front engined vehicles but I guess not at all on a rear engined R10.

    It will be very interesting to see how this works in practice.

    I think I know of a Floride with electric fans I'll see if I can get details. I know Alan Moore's 750 R16 has electric fans but both also get airflow from under the car and out the rear partly in the opposite direction to an R10.

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    Just made a phone call here is the answer. The Floride has an R12 motor and a very large radiator across the full width of the body it runs two electic fans one pushing on one side and one pulling on the other side of the radiator. The radiator is in front of the engine. The air flow is both from under the vehicle (no fuel tank like on an R10) and through the side air ducts then directly out the rear. One fan has a thermostate and the other is manual. They usually run all the time.

    He also knows of an R10 that had an electric fan and the result was "don't bother" they had a lot of difficulty getting it to work satisfactorily and it ran all the time and was much more noisy than the manual one howling because it had to run at a much higher speed. It was removed and the mechanical fan re fitted.

    Despite this info try it I want to know whether it is possible.

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Hmmm, the R17 fan with it's numerous blades (plastic) is quite quiet compared to the roar of the steel 6 blade engine fan, maybe due to having many more blades but also very slim blades compared to the fewer but more aggressive 6 steel blades but I'm not convinced it would push as much air as the original fan. That's what I'm a bit nervous about. Would be good if there was a flow spec for both fans like cfm, that would make it very simple.
    cheers,

    John

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    Hi Rob

    THanks for the maths on that. The drain is not as bad as I had imagined.

    The thing to remember is that without the fan going there is little airflow so it may need to run almost whole time once the car is at operating temperature. That being the case I would be looking at a heavier duty fan than the Supercheap numbers.

    With a front mounted radiator when the engine is under load it is typically moving, ergo airflow over the radiator, so the electric fan only needs take the peaks off the coolant temperature. You're probably better at this than me but isn't cooling easier when the difference between ambient air temperature and the radiator is at its greatest? I guess your comment re the hi/low set up is pertinent here

    Another way of looking at it is if an engine fan drawing 750w just does the job running the whole time, would a 280w fan be up to it?

    P

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exfrogger View Post

    [...]

    You're probably better at this than me but isn't cooling easier when the difference between ambient air temperature and the radiator is at its greatest? I guess your comment re the hi/low set up is pertinent here

    Another way of looking at it is if an engine fan drawing 750w just does the job running the whole time, would a 280w fan be up to it?

    P
    Yes, the heat transfer works better when the temperature gradient is at its highest. However, we are talking here of a small gradient (say 80 deg in the radiator vs 40 ambient). The cooling effect of the fan driven airflow through the radiator is in this case a lot greater than increasing the temperature gradient by say another 10deg (if you let the fan kick in at 90 deg).

    The point made earlier that you need the same energy to achieve the same effect is valid albeit calculations explained above tend to suggest otherwise. I guess a reconciliation of the two situations can only be found by comparing fans with the same airflow (i.e. air volume/time). Disregarding losses I firmly believe the same amount of energy must be expended. Once losses are factored in, I am willing to guess the electric fan would be the more efficient solution. Newer fan designs with lighter and more blades such as those largely available on the market are no doubt much more efficient than the old engine driven fan.

    Another point to consider is that the engine driven fan varies in speed a lot, and all the time, which is bound to make the blade design inefficient over the range of RPM (a double whammy really as the RPM decreases as the car slows down notwithstanding gearchanges - ever experienced overheating in slow traffic?). An electric fan can run all the time at optimum RPM (maximum efficiency).

    An interesting experiment though, worthy at least of a sleek geek/mythbusters episode.
    Last edited by schlitzaugen; 10th December 2010 at 11:54 PM.

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Another point to consider is that the engine driven fan varies in speed a lot....
    Thats the main point.

    In a regular front engine car, when you least need active airflow, at 100km/h the fans are sucking all that power, and wasting it.
    When you really need the airflow through the radiator, after climbing a big hill fast, and stopping for traffic, you fans are doing nothing. This is exactly the shortfall of the mechanical water pump too by the way.

    The electric fan/pump can be designed much more efficiently because it is designed for a singular speed or with a smaller range than 6000rpm and its load can be delivered whenever you want it.
    It is also a safe assumption that a blade designed recently will be better than one designed in the 1950's.

    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 11th December 2010 at 12:11 AM.

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Default R10 Electric Fan!!!

    Hi John,

    My wife had a R10 1000 in Rhodesia, 6 blade fan, and a VDO electric temp gauge. on very warm days the temp would get very close to 100C in traffic. I serviced the rad and all the hoses and thermostat, and it stayed very similar. So I tried a R16 fan mounted in the air chamber. Took the fan off the waterpump, and removed the shroud. fitted a 16 thermoswitch to the lower rad tank. And ran it. It was great. Temp was great all the time normally ran just over the thermostat, about 85C, and at 90C the fan would come on and the temp would drop again. Great for something to do in the traffic, watch the temp gauge and geuse when the fan would come on.

    John do it with what ever fan you have. Just change the wires around to reverse the fan direction. if it is not the best get another fan.

    Ray geckoeng

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Hi Ray, that's just what I was hoping to hear from someone. Great news, thanks for that and thanks to everyone else that's helped too. I'm quite keen to try it now. I'll post the results after I've done the conversion. Might be a week or two.
    cheers,

    John

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    Hi,
    Just a quick comment.
    "If the R17 fan has reversible blades you will be fine." Reversing the blades does not change the way they move the air.
    I recall in the far past using a renault 16 fan, I think, and when I reversed the direction of the motor the fan blade unscrewed and fell off, as it was driven by the threaded shaft.
    Most modern fans can be run either direction.
    As you all probably know it is important to run the correct gycol concentration in these Renaults as they were designed to run hot and will boil if only water is used. The system normally runs hotter than 100deg. Thats a memory from the good old days when anti-freeze was allmost unknown to the average mechanic and they just put in plain water. Of course the corrosion is another story !!!
    cheers Jaahn

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi,
    Just a quick comment.
    "If the R17 fan has reversible blades you will be fine." Reversing the blades does not change the way they move the air.
    Hi Jaan,

    An equally quick comment - when quoting it's courteous to retain the context.

    "There are no problems running fans "pushing air" instead of "drawing air".

    However, you need to reverse the fan blades as well the direction or the motor."


    cheers

    Robert

  20. #20
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi,
    Just a quick comment.
    "If the R17 fan has reversible blades you will be fine." Reversing the blades does not change the way they move the air.
    I recall in the far past using a renault 16 fan, I think, and when I reversed the direction of the motor the fan blade unscrewed and fell off, as it was driven by the threaded shaft.
    Most modern fans can be run either direction.
    As you all probably know it is important to run the correct gycol concentration in these Renaults as they were designed to run hot and will boil if only water is used. The system normally runs hotter than 100deg. Thats a memory from the good old days when anti-freeze was allmost unknown to the average mechanic and they just put in plain water. Of course the corrosion is another story !!!
    cheers Jaahn

    As a side issue, how does one establish the correct gycol level?

    I have noticed coolant price varies wildly between different brands, it is the "you get what you pay for" principal at work here or are some coolants genuinely better than others?

    Graham
    Every day when I wake up I reach up in the darkness with my eyes shut and if I cannot feel anything that resembles a wooden lid I know it will be a good day. No lid today.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    As a side issue, how does one establish the correct gycol level?

    I have noticed coolant price varies wildly between different brands, it is the "you get what you pay for" principal at work here or are some coolants genuinely better than others?

    Graham

    I use cheap pre mix coolant and I have never had a problem.
    My galleries are as clean as the day the head went back on.

    I dont subscribe to the theory that your coolant will help your motor cool.
    It may round off an occasional peak, but at the expense of the average efficiency.

    I reckon if you run pure water and it boils, there is an issue and you cooling system is inadequate.

    Something in your system is not up to speed and sorting this will be the end of your cooling problems whereas adding a coolant as the fix will just delay the inevitable.

    If on a well maintained system the coolant flow through the donk and the air flow through the radiator is more than adequate, then the water should stay well under boiling point.


    From that point onwards, its just a matter of choosing the degree of antifreeze you need for your local weather conditions, and maintaining a minimum level of inhibitor.

    Jo
    Last edited by jo proffi; 11th December 2010 at 11:39 AM.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Glycol is added to the system to prevent freezing in cold climate. It also lubricates the water pump seals. Other additives are meant to prevent corrosion, but an engine standing still for too long is going to corrode anyway. The best policy is to keep maintenance up and replace liquids at specified intervals.

    Cooling systems are designed to run under pressure to raise the boiling point without the need to add anything (water will boil at about 120deg instead of 100). This is why it is then critical there is no air in the system, as air is compressible and it won't allow the pressure to increase and raise water boiling point. Sure, it's best to have a margin just in case (by using additives) but without any unforseen events, water (distilled) will do the job very well.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Just had a look at the 17TL fan. Yes the blades are reversible but not easily. On removal of the fan blades, I found the brass insert or boss that's pressed into the fan centre has a protruding slot that locates it against a roll pin on the shaft facing the motor. In order to make the boss protrude the other end of the fan blades or remove it completely & swap it around, I risk cracking the 36 yr old plastic fan so I might look further at mounting it engine side of the radiator once the steel blades & shroud are gone & let it suck air as designed to. Really though, I should just stop being a tight .....s & buy a new one as suggested earlier - probably more efficient anyway !!
    cheers,

    John

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    Have a close look at that roll pin. Check that its not a grub screw with a hex head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Glycol is added to the system to prevent freezing in cold climate. It also lubricates the water pump seals. Other additives are meant to prevent corrosion, but an engine standing still for too long is going to corrode anyway. The best policy is to keep maintenance up and replace liquids at specified intervals.

    Cooling systems are designed to run under pressure to raise the boiling point without the need to add anything (water will boil at about 120deg instead of 100). This is why it is then critical there is no air in the system, as air is compressible and it won't allow the pressure to increase and raise water boiling point. Sure, it's best to have a margin just in case (by using additives) but without any unforseen events, water (distilled) will do the job very well.
    Hi,
    The R8/10 came with a high proportion of gycol and inhibitors as standard. As I recall they were the first cars to do so. BP had a coolant called R70/30 which they sold as the recommended official coolant used by Renault. I cannot recall whether it was 30% or 70% gycol. The cooling system was also pressurised by the "radiator cap" to a high pressure for the time, and a high thermostat setting. This was all designed to run the motors hot for efficient performance and good economy. It worked well and had no problems with overheating normally. Plain water was not used at the factory or recommended and as I said it could cause overheating if used.

    The gycol does not only depress the freezing point it also raises the boiling point by up to 10 Deg depending on the concentration. So the combination of gycol and pressure, raise the boiling point to up to 120deg. That is now the industry standard for cooling systems and is well known.

    In other countries where the anti-freeze aspect is most vital, service stations and mechanics have a simple tester to check the gycol concetration of a small sample so it can be added as the temperature drops. In Australia I would rate the anti corrosion properties of the coolant more important. Particularly if you want to preserve your old engines. The misture of metals in the system means the coolant selection is critical to ward off the pitting and corrosion.
    Cheers Jaahn

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