power steering for Reno 17
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    power steering for Reno 17

    Hi guys,

    greetings from NZ. I have a Renault 17TL that I am restoring and have got an 843 motor & 5spd box from a fuego GTS to put into the car. The thing is this, will the power steering rack fit too? I would like to change it to power steer if possible, as it has wider tyres on 15 inch rims that make it a bit heavy to steer. Handles heaps better with them on tho'!!

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    Any suggestions re: the 5spd box would be appreciated to, I am picking that it is just going to be a case of making up a new gearbox crossmember for the rear of it. Any thoughts?

    By the way, cool site, a resource that my brother and I (rebuilding an R12- trying to convince him that the R17 motor and R18 5spd are the way to go- help please!!) could have done with a while ago.

    Cheers Ben

  2. #2
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Ben,
    I believe Fuego power steering will fit, I have seen it done but never done it, my wife tells me that if I put power steering on the 17G she would drive it more I tell her thats the reason I wont. Fuego rack will bolt up to 17 chassis and use 17 tie rods, the steering colum has to be cut and shortend but its not hard, the pump and bottle will sit above the starter motor, like I said, I have seen it done and I've driven the car but I've never done it, yet that is.

    David.

    David Cavanagh

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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by David Cavanagh:
    Ben,
    I believe Fuego power steering will fit, I have seen it done but never done it, my wife tells me that if I put power steering on the 17G she would drive it more I tell her thats the reason I wont. Fuego rack will bolt up to 17 chassis and use 17 tie rods, the steering colum has to be cut and shortend but its not hard, the pump and bottle will sit above the starter motor, like I said, I have seen it done and I've driven the car but I've never done it, yet that is.

    David.

    Cheers David,

    Thats what I figured- that the tie rod ends would have to be swapped over. Part of the reason I want to change it is that ever since I had the car lowered and the rack out to fit new bushes it never self centred properly. The only advice in the Hanynes manual to remedy this is to measure the height from the ground at set points and alter the height of the rack to suit.

    However once it was lowered (springs removed and then retempered) those heights were meaningless (the suspension 'specialist' thought it was lowered by 'about' an inch).

    I guess to shorten the column it just entails cutting a portion out and then rewelding it?

    While I'm here, could you help me out, I have purchased an 843 motor and box from a fuego- rated at approx 98hp, the original 807-10 motor(1565cc) always felt gutless, the fuego motor (as standard) felt heaps quicker. I have twin sidedraughts , extractors to go on it, what is the better proposition? The hotted 1647cc (843) or the 1565cc motor?

    I would like about 120hp. Unfortunately? I have already spent about $1000 getting the 1565cc motor to where it is with head, cam and balancing work, (yet to buy pistons and liners impossible to get over here!!)

    As both slot into the 17 I am really just after the best motor (Originality isn't really an issue with the 843 motor as they had that one from 75 onwards anyway).

    I have compared cam timing specs etc and the std fuego has similar specs (approx 70, 30 to the grind I have had done to the 17 cam, was around 60-40 to 73-37!!)

    Are there other major differences that make one motor better than the other? I have noticed that the distributor runs cassette type points in the fuego motor but surely that doesn't make much difference, as it is just a different set of points really.

    Another thing, are the power ratings of 70's 80's french cars for real? What is the most comparable measurement to use- SAE or DIN- were they over-rated by Renault from the factory?

    Any advice would be appreciated


  4. #4
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ben,

    Basically, the SAE rating is the power at the flywheel if the water pump and alternator are disconnected. Often when engines are put on a Dyno in a laboratory the electrical an water pump features are handled by the laboratory's inbuilt electrical and cooling facilities. This is how the SAE rating came about, because it was the simplest way of testing engines. Unfortunately the SAE rating does not reflect the true figures at the flywheel when the engine is in the car. The DIN rating is more realistic because they go to the trouble of mounting an alternator and waterpump on the engine, in the lab, to get real world figures. Typically DIN figures are about 0.95 of the SAE figures, but it varies depending on the revolutions the enigne is turning at and the size and design of the ancillaries.

    Regards,
    Dave
    NZ Fleet
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  5. #5
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the camshaft, crank, head and everything else, interchangeable between the 1565cc engines and the 1647cc engines? I always thought the 1647 engine was exactly the same, except for bigger liners and pistons and possibly a few block modifications.

    Ben, if this is the case, can't you just use all your good bits in the other motor?

    Dave McBean
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
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  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by davemcbean:
    [B]Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the camshaft, crank, head and everything else, interchangeable between the 1565cc engines and the 1647cc engines? I always thought the 1647 engine was exactly the same, except for bigger liners and pistons and possibly a few block modifications.

    Hi Dave,

    thanks for explanation re: SAE vs DIN hp ratings, always had me a bit confused.

    As for swapping the bits over between motors- I am not sure, everything looks basically the same, it appears that the 1647cc motor just has a larger bore, with the same stroke. The other major difference is that the alternators, power steering pump etc are all hanging off the 'right' end on the fuego motor which would normally be the 'wrong'(firewall end) end of the 1565cc motor. The other thing is that the head has the waterpump at 'the wrong' end and the valves from the 843 motor are slightly smaller than the 807-10 motor.

    What are the 'block modifications' you refer to Dave?

    All the outward appearces are that the two motors are very similar- perhaps just different capacities, but the 1647cc has got so much more balls that it just got me wondering.....

    Then again the 1565cc motor had a hole in one piston when I tore it down and the 843 is sweet, so it might just be that....

    Cheers

    Ben

    ps anything I am missing? ported head, twin 40mm dellortos, balanced everything, extractors, cam ground, oil cooler, electric cooling fan, mixture meter (for the carbs), any ideas on what I should expect out of this- hp wise?



  7. #7
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ben,

    I'm not sure if there are any block modifications. There probably isn't. I haven't had a close look at a 1647cc engine. I just said that there might be some, because sometimes manufacturers decide to increase the block stiffness or possibly the main bearing area when they bring out a revised version of an engine. I'd forgotten about the fact that there are atleast two versions of the same head with waterpumps at different ends. I guess using the 1565cc head would make the engine look more original, while the Fuego head would allow you to make everything a little bit more accessible.

    By the sounds of your engine specs, I guess you could expect a minimum of 108hp DIN (road going R12 Gordini figure) and 145Nm of torque. I guess that depending on how nicely the head has been ported and the cam has been ground, it could be considerably more than this. David Cavanagh should know alot more about this than me.

    Regards,
    Dave
    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
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    1994 106 Xsi
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  8. #8
    Simon's Avatar
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    The 1647cc block has rubber O-ring liner seals, while the 1565cc has paper liner seals, the liners and seals are not interchangeable between the different types of block.

    Simon
    1963 Renault R4 Van
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  9. #9
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    I think I'd prefer to use the block with the rubber liner seals. The modified head, with the bigger valves sounds like it would go well on the 1647cc block. Sounds like it would be a great motor.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  10. #10
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ben,

    Do they still make jets for Dellortos? I know they stopped making DHLA carbs about 10 years ago. If they don't make jets anymore, it might make it difficult to dyno tune your engine. You can use special drills to enlarge the jets, but once you've made them larger, you can't go back down again. Drills don't help with the air correctors though. I guess some specialists may still have Dellorto bits in stock.

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi Dave,

    I will 'throw' the 1647cc motor into the car to begin with, as it goes well already, then fiddle with combining components between them to get the best motor.

    Something I am not quite sure on though,is it just the liners and seals that aren't interchangeable? The reason I ask is that I have a couple sets of crank,cams, rods etc - so would it be sweet to mix/match between the two as long as the original liners(with seals) stay in the original blocks?

    As for the dellortos they are DHLA's but I was unaware that they had stopped making them so long ago. A friend of mine advised me to get them as they are comparable to webers. There are enough businesses over here advertising that they can tune them so hopefully I shouldn't have any problems. I have checked out all the jet sizes, air correctors etc and it seems about right (based on a websites figures for a mildly modded cortina motor) -it all came out of a fiat 128, fingers crossed that it will be all OK. I'll just have to set it all up and see what the mixture meter says!!

    Am a bit dubious about using a dyno tho, only about two in the town I live in and one of them couldn't tune my car to save themselves- drilled the jets to oversize/swapped them over all sorts of bollocks and it ran worse, than ever fouling plugs etc- but it was powertuned on their dyno!!

    Think I will stick to getting the right mixtures through the meter and colour from spark plugs etc.


    Ben

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by davemcbean:
    Ben,

    Do they still make jets for Dellortos? I know they stopped making DHLA carbs about 10 years ago. If they don't make jets anymore, it might make it difficult to dyno tune your engine. You can use special drills to enlarge the jets, but once you've made them larger, you can't go back down again. Drills don't help with the air correctors though. I guess some specialists may still have Dellorto bits in stock.

    Dave

  12. #12
    Simon's Avatar
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    1565cc = 77mm bore, these have paper liners, and are not suited to an 843 block.

    1647cc = 79mm bore, these are the rubber o-ring seals. These are not suited to the 807 block.

    Because of the difference in bore size the pistons cannot be easily matched.

    There is little to recommend either seal over the other, as long as you 1565 block has always used coolant. There are many examples with corroded liner seats in the block.

    With the 807 (1565cc) block you can still get high compression 12G and 17G piston liner sets, I've not really seen anything performance oriented for the 843 block (apart from the 18/Fuego Turbo).


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Renault17:
    Hi Dave,

    I will 'throw' the 1647cc motor into the car to begin with, as it goes well already, then fiddle with combining components between them to get the best motor.

    Something I am not quite sure on though,is it just the liners and seals that aren't interchangeable? The reason I ask is that I have a couple sets of crank,cams, rods etc - so would it be sweet to mix/match between the two as long as the original liners(with seals) stay in the original blocks?

    As for the dellortos they are DHLA's but I was unaware that they had stopped making them so long ago. A friend of mine advised me to get them as they are comparable to webers. There are enough businesses over here advertising that they can tune them so hopefully I shouldn't have any problems. I have checked out all the jet sizes, air correctors etc and it seems about right (based on a websites figures for a mildly modded cortina motor) -it all came out of a fiat 128, fingers crossed that it will be all OK. I'll just have to set it all up and see what the mixture meter says!!

    Am a bit dubious about using a dyno tho, only about two in the town I live in and one of them couldn't tune my car to save themselves- drilled the jets to oversize/swapped them over all sorts of bollocks and it ran worse, than ever fouling plugs etc- but it was powertuned on their dyno!!

    Think I will stick to getting the right mixtures through the meter and colour from spark plugs etc.


    Ben

    1963 Renault R4 Van
    1964 Renault R4
    1967 Volkswagen 1300 Deluxe
    1969 Renault 8 Gordini 1300
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  13. #13
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Hi guys,
    I'll let you in on a little secret, we use the 1647cc piston/sleeves in the 807 block,simply bore the base of the block a little and they slide straight in, easy,
    Get the cam done to Gordini spec, fit bigger valves, twin carbs and if you can't get 130+ horse power then youve done something wrong, we are in the middle of building one at the moment in a 17TL, we've even had one 807 motor bored out to 1800cc and think nothing of it, these motors are fantastic and are only limited by your imagination and your wallet size, as they say in motorsport, "there no substitute for cubic dollars".

    Seeya,
    David.
    David Cavanagh

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  14. #14
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
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    Ben,
    Your steering problems have nothing to do with you lowering your car, I have two 17's, a Gordini which has been lowered two inches by having the spring reset and Koni's fitted and a TL which I cut one coil off and sat it down about one inch, neither car has steering problems, your problem is you rack hieght is out. To fix it either see a dealer or play with it yourself, remove battery and coolant bottle loosen rack bolts and reset rack and go for a test drive, and if your lucky you got it first time otherwise keep trying sooner or later you'll get it right, patience and it will come right.
    David.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hi David,

    I have tried resetting the rack height to enable the car to self centre again, but have had no luck. Admittedly it was always a bastard of a job with the battery tray in the way. With the latest incarnation of my 17 I have decided to move the battery to the boot so the rack will be really accessible. Unforunately I have done it two or three times now and I started replaceing the rubber union, in the steering rack etc and it still didn't improve. I think now it's more accessible I'll give it another go. By the way taking it to a dealer- only one in my town- they asked me what it was........


    Cheers Ben


    ps did that guy on the parts/cars for sale page ever put a price on that hot 1647cc motor???

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by David Cavanagh:
    Ben,
    Your steering problems have nothing to do with you lowering your car, I have two 17's, a Gordini which has been lowered two inches by having the spring reset and Koni's fitted and a TL which I cut one coil off and sat it down about one inch, neither car has steering problems, your problem is you rack hieght is out. To fix it either see a dealer or play with it yourself, remove battery and coolant bottle loosen rack bolts and reset rack and go for a test drive, and if your lucky you got it first time otherwise keep trying sooner or later you'll get it right, patience and it will come right.
    David.

  16. #16
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ben,

    Just a few thoughts. If there is anything causing an axial load on the pinion, the steering can lose its self centering effect. Things which could cause axial load would be things like steering couplings being tightened together after they have been tightened onto the shaft. I'm not sure what couplings are on the R17 steering shaft, but I know that on my 504 if there is any compression or tension on the shaft, the steering becomes very stiff and won't self centre. The same symptoms can also be caused by too much preload on the pinion play adjustment.

    Dave

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Renault17:
    Hi David,

    I have tried resetting the rack height to enable the car to self centre again, but have had no luck. Admittedly it was always a bastard of a job with the battery tray in the way. With the latest incarnation of my 17 I have decided to move the battery to the boot so the rack will be really accessible. Unforunately I have done it two or three times now and I started replaceing the rubber union, in the steering rack etc and it still didn't improve. I think now it's more accessible I'll give it another go. By the way taking it to a dealer- only one in my town- they asked me what it was........


    Cheers Ben


    ps did that guy on the parts/cars for sale page ever put a price on that hot 1647cc motor???

    NZ Fleet
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    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
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  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thanks Dave,

    yeah I have just pulled the rack out today to have a look at it. It seems as though the power steering unit from the fuego won't fit, as it hits the brake booster. Another thing is that on the back of the steering rack it has a thing? a pretensioner? that as you tighten it , it pushes a spring onto a bearing surface that holds the rack 'steady'. Without referring to the haynes manual, I would say that this dramatically affects the ability of the rack to self centre. When I rebushed the rack not long ago, I failed to regrease this part of the rack, it felt considerably smoother in action once i had cleaned out some old grease in there, so that could have been half my problem!

    I know where you are coming from with the thing about the 504 column Dave, as I also tightened things too early on my 17- felt b-y awful too!!

    Cheers Ben

    ps my first car was a 504TI, which I am hankering to get back to - the RWD factor....anyone done any interesting things to 504's over there??

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Renault17,

    Try these suggestions mate

    http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/For...ML/000089.html

    Chipper

  19. #19
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ben,

    These are the main mods which I've done to my 504:

    *Wade 22/63.5 63/23.5 cam with 0.285 inches lift
    *flywheel lightened by 2 kg
    *Weber DGV carb
    *tubular exhaust manifold
    *2.25 inch mandrel bent exhaust with Walker super turbo tri-flow front muffler and rear resonator
    *electric cooling fan
    *large diameter high flowing aircleaner
    *BA10 5 speed gearbox
    *505 GTi springs
    *604 rear swaybar (19mm)
    *K-mac 27mm front swaybar
    *K-mac front swaybar mounts with nolathane bushing
    *14" leather bound steering wheel
    *14X6" Cheviot alloy wheels
    *195/65 tyres

    I've modified a late model 504 head (square port) and made a manifold for it to suit a single sidedraught Weber DCOE. This should be going on the car soon, in conjunction with a K&N air filter.

    Before I bought the 505GTi springs I was thinking of lowering the car slightly, however I'm glad I didn't because I've found the GTi springs and standard ride height perfect for Rallies and bush tracks in the Blue Mountains (where I've already scrapped my centre muffler) where I go bushwalking.

    I've also got a hold of some Citroen CX2200 liners which can be externally machined, bored and fitted to a machined 504 block to make it 2168cc in conjunction with 60 thou oversize 2 litre Ford Cortina/Sierra pistons with machined crowns. I've checked and measured and cut into an old engine block to make sure all this will work. There's actually alot more meat there to do this than what there is in the R16 block to bore them out to 1796cc or even 1647cc. The main consideration is the placement of the main oil gallery which unfortunately runs quite close to the liners. This modification is atleast $1200 to $1500 worth to do properly and I'm not sure if I fully trust anyone to do the machining accurately so I might have to wait until either I have my own machine shop or I'm rich enough that I don't care about losing $1500 if somebody stuffs the job up. The other alternative would be to use the 2165cc OHC 505 engine, but I like the pushrod motor alot more and anyway by the time I recondition and modify an OHC engine and purchase the right bellhousing for a BA10 5 speed, it would cost atleast $1500 anyway. A 2.7 V6 would be the same but I'd prefer an even fire 2.8 which would cost alot more. With a V6 I'd also have to get an Engineers certificate (because the'd be no way to fool anyone that it was the original motor) which would increase the costs even more. I have a 504 motor with a Turbo charger sitting in my father's garage, but it would need quite a bit of sorting out to make it reliable enough for my tastes and it would also need an Engineer's certificate. I'd be happy with about the same power and torque to weight ratios as an early Australian spec 205 1.9GTi. This would mean I would need about 125hp and 180Nm of torque, which is within the capabilities of a modified 2 litre. For the weight the 1971cc engine is as big as having a 1565cc engine in a Renault 12, but of course the Pug engine can't produce anywhere near the power per litre of the Renault motor. To have the same power and torque to weight ratios as a R12 with a 17TL engine, I would need about 120hp and 165Nm which should be achieveable with my modified head and sidedraught weber. That should do me for a while.

    If you want to see some modified 504s check out the ones in the "Past Events" section at the 504 30th anniversary gathering. There were four V6s there and a few hot 1971cc motors. There's also some pictures of some hot 504 engines in the "Downloads" section of the London to Sydney rally cars. There's quite a few hot 504s in Australia. I summarised some of them in the "504/505 mods" thread in the Peugeot discussion area.

    Regards,
    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

  20. #20
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Ben,

    I've just checked out your R17 in the member's car photos section. It looks awesome!

    Dave
    NZ Fleet
    1976 504 Ti
    1984 205 GT twin carb
    1991 205 SI 1.6GTI motor
    1994 106 Xsi
    1996 Mondeo V6
    Aus Fleet
    1955 203C
    1997 Civic Cxi (great allrounder- revy, flexible, nimble, comfortable , economical, simple and durable )

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