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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Default I shall sulk...

    God damn bloody cars. Mutter, grumble etc...

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    Sitting at the lights on the way back from Philip Is, and noticed a new noise from the motor at idle and on light acceleration. Hmmm - thats not good.

    Had a listen when I got home, and sure enough - big end.

    Never even heard of a Douvrin throwing crank bearings. What a bloody hassle. Wont cost much as I have a spare motor (although it has the oil leak on the headgasket, so I will swap over the reco head on this motor to that one), but it will be a few days I would so rather spend doing something else...
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Default Douvrin motor

    You can sulk, because the conventional wisdom on this forum (and my own experiences with 2x R20's and a 505) is that they are bloody strong. I've had issues with the head (valve guide seals and gaskets on the older 20's but no issue at all with the Pug).
    Luckily you've got a parts bin to do a cheap and quick fix. If you happen to have holidays aligned with the rest of the population, then you'll also have the time. My guess is that you'd rater spend the time at the beach!
    Bugger!!!

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Haakon,
    The only Renault motor I have come into contact with that had a bad bottom end bearing was my old R18. Someone back in its history had done some work and used silicone sealer on the sump and used just a little too much. Over time the extra bits that were circulating absorbed that much oil they blocked a gallery and a big end failed. My rule now, I never use silicone based sealers, even if they are said to be oil safe
    I wonder what you will find when you pull the engine down? Have you ever had this one apart?
    Keep us posted.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I am pretty sure the bottom end is as it left the factory. I have had the head off (standard oil leak on the headgasket), but other than that its original.

    But, previous owners thought oil changes were optional. It was in a bad way when I got it, with nasty oil that took several changes before it stayed clean. But I took a punt on it knowing how tough these motors are, and I have put 70K km on it since then. I was expecting the transmission to go first though!!

    So with that history, and ~270K km on the dial I guess I cant winge too much.

    Hopefully I can get a bit more use out of it - cant even afford the few hundered it will need at the moment If its anything like one of the
    R10s I had, it may soldier on with the knock for while.

    Just debating with myself over what to do - get the spare from the farm and use that, or do up this one. It should only need bearings, but I may as well pull it right down and toss new rings in too. Would almost be less hassle, as getting the motor out of the spare car and getting it to Melb will be more time consuming than stripping this motor.... Plus I still have to swap a head onto it and change the sump over from this engine.
    Last edited by Haakon; 8th January 2006 at 07:10 PM.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    I must be tired - I have a 100K km R21 motor in the driveway

    Still have to swap the head (different heater hose outlets on the heads), but its here and I have to strip that car out anyway. Well, looks like I will spending a bit of time dismantling cars.

    And its such nice beach weather too
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Is it confirmed that it is a BE bearing? Not something like case hardening gone from a camshaft lobe or something simple like a loose pulley, as it does seem very unusual for a bearing to just go.

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    Is it confirmed that it is a BE bearing? .
    Pretty sure. Its got that distinctive rattle/knocking sound, and its definantly in the crankcase.

    In hindsight, it hasnt let go suddenly - its been there a while. I had just put it down to general rattles on an oldish motor (Douvrins not being terribly smooth engines anyway). But the rattle is now bad enough to be identified for what it is.

    Good oil pressure still and its quite at higher revs - just idle (where pressure is lowest) shows it up, along with a harder knock on light throttle off idle.

    Boring....
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Icon3 Check with Caravelle re cost.

    Haakon

    Check with ken at Caravelle as to cost of replacement bearings - you may get away with standard bearings and they may be fairly inexpensive - its worth checking with him anyway - far easier than changing over motors or s/hand parts.

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    Pretty sure. Its got that distinctive rattle/knocking sound, and its definantly in the crankcase.

    In hindsight, it hasnt let go suddenly - its been there a while. I had just put it down to general rattles on an oldish motor (Douvrins not being terribly smooth engines anyway). But the rattle is now bad enough to be identified for what it is.

    Good oil pressure still and its quite at higher revs - just idle (where pressure is lowest) shows it up, along with a harder knock on light throttle off idle.

    Boring....
    Haakon,

    I had BE rattle in my B29E R25 on starting up and idle - nothing dramatic but certainly noticeable especially on starting up if the car hadn't been driven for a few days. The car had done an indicated 240k km. Oil pressure was good. I dropped the sump and checked the BE journals. They were within tolerance so I replaced the BE bearings. Cured the rattles.

    I found loosening the anti-roll bar by removing the brackets & links made it easier to drop & replace the sump as the bar gets in the way, especially when replacing the sump & gasket. The BE bearings & sump gasket cost about $70 from Caravelle. Biggest pain was removing the cross member below the g'box as someone had used it to jack the car up and wedged it against the g'box . Had to loosen the g'box mount bolts & jack the g'box up to free it.

    Just seems an easier option than swapping motors & heads etc if the BE journals are OK. Hope your auto sump hasn't got the dreaded Torx screws securing it.

    Just replaced a rear window winder in mine - the plastic covering on the winder cable had broken. Getting the replacement mechanism out of the donor door and putting it in mine without damaging the plastic covering was a fun job - think I'd rather do the BEs.

    Goodluck &

    Renpete
    Last edited by Renpete; 9th January 2006 at 11:15 AM.

  10. #10
    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renpete
    Just replaced a rear window winder in mine - the plastic covering on the winder cable had broken. Getting the replacement mechanism out of the donor door and putting it in mine without damaging the plastic covering was a fun job - think I'd rather do the BEs.
    About to do this one myself...
    I have been given a good 'blue' door, I am tempted to swap and spray rather than stuff around with the mechanism. advice?

    wish me luck!


    David.
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renpete
    Haakon,

    I had BE rattle in my B29E R25 on starting up and idle - nothing dramatic but certainly noticeable especially on starting up if the car hadn't been driven for a few days. The car had done an indicated 240k km. Oil pressure was good. I dropped the sump and checked the BE journals. They were within tolerance so I replaced the BE bearings. Cured the rattles.

    I found loosening the anti-roll bar by removing the brackets & links made it easier to drop & replace the sump as the bar gets in the way, especially when replacing the sump & gasket. The BE bearings & sump gasket cost about $70 from Caravelle. Biggest pain was removing the cross member below the g'box as someone had used it to jack the car up and wedged it against the g'box . Had to loosen the g'box mount bolts & jack the g'box up to free it.

    Just seems an easier option than swapping motors & heads etc if the BE journals are OK. Hope your auto sump hasn't got the dreaded Torx screws securing it.

    Just replaced a rear window winder in mine - the plastic covering on the winder cable had broken. Getting the replacement mechanism out of the donor door and putting it in mine without damaging the plastic covering was a fun job - think I'd rather do the BEs.

    Goodluck &

    Renpete
    This sounds like its worth a look. The more I think about it, the more I dont want to pull the motor!!!! And it seems otherwise fine - plenty of power, good oil pressure and no oil use at all. And its got a reconditioned head on it!

    If the journals look OK, some new bearing shells may do the trick. If I am careful, I could even do most of the main bearings while I am in there (cant do the rear one without disturbing the rear main seal though).

    Anyway, worth spending an hour to check the cranks condition. Worst case is I have lost an hour and have to pull the motor anyway.
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Hi Hakon,
    I wouldn't bother with the mains, they last for ever unless you've had a no oil pressure situation. Also to do the mains you have to remove the crank, which is a motor out job. Leave them be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivid
    About to do this one myself...
    I have been given a good 'blue' door, I am tempted to swap and spray rather than stuff around with the mechanism. advice?

    wish me luck!


    David.
    David,
    I'd have a go at replacing the mechanism rather than respraying. Start by removing the broken one from your car - its stuffed so you can't do any more damage.

    This is the procedure I used to remove the replacement mechanism from the donor door.

    Lower the window & remove the locking knob by depressing the plastic lock tab with a very small screwdriver (tab faces the outside). Raise the window fully & remove the winder handle (prise off). Remove the inner door handle (one screw) - needs a bit of juggling. Remove armrest assembly (3 large Torx screws, 2 smaller phillips head screws at bottom and one plastic nut inside near where door handle fitted (10mm). Remove door trim - pull off sharply then push up to release from the rubber guide strip for the window. You will almost invariably break at least one of the plastic trim clips (but you've got spares from the donor door). Remove the clear plastic sheeting covering the door apertures - the mastic securing it is horribly sticky so beware.

    Remove the 2 10mm bolts holding the winder to the bottom of the window. Undo the 3 bolts holding the T-shaped winder guide to the door. Lower the window to the bottom of the door. Remove the bolt securing the winder mechanism, free it and push towards the inside. Remove the bolt holding the plastic door latch lever and drop it down so that its connecting rod to the latch doesn't block the large aperture it normally crosses (this is the aperture used to remove and insert the mechanism.

    Raise the window to the top & secure with a couple of small wedges. Rotate the mechanism anti-clockwise inside the door so that the end of the plastic covered section above the winder can be withdrawn from the large aperture in the door. Take care not to force or you will crack the plastic covering. Slowly feed the the rest of the mechanism through the aperture.

    Replacing
    Make sure the window is fully raised and held so it can't slide down.
    Insert the large metal T-shaped winder guide through the aperture first. Rotate it anticlockwise and carefully feed in the rest of the mechanism. Then rotate the mechanism clockwise so that the winder mechanism fits into its aperture taking care to carefully feed the upper part of the cable so it curves around the top LH part of the door. Loosely secure with bolt. Secure the 2 bolts loosely joining the top of the winder guide to the bottom of the window & then the 3 bolts holding the winder guide to the door. Relpace the plastic door latch making sure that its locator is fitted correctly (so the latch contacts the door handle - I didn't and had to strip all the trim etc off again as the lever didn't protrude enough for the interior handle to engage with it). Tighten all the bolts. Fit the winder handle temporarily and check that the winder works (after removing wedges) - don't force it. BTW, I then used lubricant on the felt window rails to try to reduce friction. Then replace all the trim etc.

    It is easier if you remove the window glass, but a pain in the butt. This involves removing the torx screw and 2 bolts that hold the quarter window & rear guide rail in place + remove the inner rubber strip that the top of the door trim fits into - beware, don't try to pull this strip up to remove it - push the securing lugs on its inner edge from outside the window & then carefully remove - if you simply try to prise & pull it up you'll tear it as I did on the donor window.

    Hope this helps, but maybe the pros have some short cuts.

    Renpete

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    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Thanks for the detailed reply Renpete.

    I'll let you know how I go. Door mechanisms and trying to get inside door skins has always made me frustrated. You make it sound easy, so I'll give it a shot.. step by step.

    Hakkon, let me know if you need another set of hands doing your engine work, I would be interested in learning more about the R25.

    David.
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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivid
    Hakkon, let me know if you need another set of hands doing your engine work, I would be interested in learning more about the R25.

    David.
    Its not that exciting... But you are welcome to come round have a look when I have the crank open. You can hand me tools and beer on request
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Sounds good, let me know when your planning on doing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renpete
    Start by removing the broken one from your car - its stuffed so you can't do any more damage.
    Is the plastic tube just cracked or is it shattered (in the usual 1980s Renault plastac way)? I was thinking if it would be suitable to wrap the cracked plastic tube in self amalgamating tape to hold it together if bits are not missing?

    If that idea sucks, how about self amalgamating tape on the replacement plastic tube in order to support it in the future and prevent further cracking and breakages in the future, sort of like sports people strapping ankles, kidney belts etc to stop their inner guts from popping out.

    Might be worth whizzing some molybedenum grease through the tube to provide further lubrication.

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    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    Is the plastic tube just cracked or is it shattered (in the usual 1980s Renault plastac way)? I was thinking if it would be suitable to wrap the cracked plastic tube in self amalgamating tape to hold it together if bits are not missing?

    If that idea sucks, how about self amalgamating tape on the replacement plastic tube in order to support it in the future and prevent further cracking and breakages in the future, sort of like sports people strapping ankles, kidney belts etc to stop their inner guts from popping out.

    Might be worth whizzing some molybedenum grease through the tube to provide further lubrication.
    My R25 has shattered plastic, bits missing, and when (attempted) wound up, it starts to coil out where the plastic is broken. Basically the window will only go down.

    David.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vivid
    My R25 has shattered plastic, bits missing,
    Its the way it shatters that matters.

    Obviously yours is stuffed, so how about wrapping the replacement to prevent future breakages, especially with all the mechanisms now being around the same age, they will all be close to shattering.

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    Default Ditto

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    Its not that exciting... But you are welcome to come round have a look when I have the crank open. You can hand me tools and beer on request
    Haakon

    If you need micrometers to check the journals for ovality/taper, I can supply those to check that out - give me a ring in due course.

    Ken

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    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Haakon

    If you need micrometers to check the journals for ovality/taper, I can supply those to check that out - give me a ring in due course.

    Ken
    Cheers mate. I should probably use a micrometer, but they are either good or not so I will just toss new shells in if the journals look all right. Not much to lose Big end shells are not worth much, so its worth a shot!!
    I tried to drown my sorrows in alcohol, but the bastards learnt how to swim

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    Default No worries!

    Quote Originally Posted by Haakon
    Cheers mate. I should probably use a micrometer, but they are either good or not so I will just toss new shells in if the journals look all right. Not much to lose Big end shells are not worth much, so its worth a shot!!
    Actually you can take quite a bit of ovality and taper out of a journal with judicious linishing of the surface - they used to finish model T journals with linishing paper fitted to hinged levers.

    Precision ball bearing race surfaces are linished in a similar way in a production process, that is really only an update of the hand finishing methods, takes quite a bit of careful work to do a crankshaft journal though.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Haakon's Avatar
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    If the crank is out of whack, then I doubt I would bother trying to do it by hand. Its a regrind job in my book.

    Picked up some bearings today (why oh why did I need them when Ken is on holidays ), and will drop the sump tomorrow after work with several appendages crossed

    And even if new shells only give me a little extra use from the motor, I will be happy enough. Give me time to get the spare motor out of the R21 and get it ready at my leisure
    Last edited by Haakon; 10th January 2006 at 06:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivid
    My R25 has shattered plastic, bits missing, and when (attempted) wound up, it starts to coil out where the plastic is broken. Basically the window will only go down.

    David.

    David & Simon,

    I'm not an expert on R25 rear winder mechanisms, but I know a fellow who was head mechanic at a Renault dealership in the Sthn Highlands of NSW, and he has replaced several for customers and on his own cars (has 3 R25s). He reckoned that he has tried every trick in the book to repair the cracked plastic covers for the winder cables but with no real success - the repaired area breaks again - even tried sleeving the broken region +araldite etc but still no success. Mine was broken in 3 places about 10cm apart, so it was a hopeless case.

    There's a fair bit of force on that plastic cable cover & I think that it would need more than tape to prevent it cracking open. I did put lubricant down the plastic tube of the replacement to try to reduce friction. As Simon says, they are all getting old and brittle. Out of curiosity, I'll try to find out the cost of a new one if available - probably old stock ex France & could be getting brittle too.

    Renpete

  25. #25
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    Default Big end Noise?

    It may not be a BE noise. Have you considered the oil pump ball relief valve. They can make a hell of a racket, especially when starting a car but also when idling. Just a hint to think about. If that is the case and your oil pressure is OK it is not a big deal, just an annoying nuisance to freak you out.
    KP

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