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  1. #51
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    Icon12 No one need get personal.

    Quote Originally Posted by 85Fuego
    Ah I knew id get into an agument here,

    Lets not get heated/personal we can pick holes in each others arguments all day - my own opinion is that let's not place the car upon a pedestal.

    I'd like to meet you and see your car one day, maybe at the next all french car day.

    Regards

    David

    David no need to get personal is correct - the reason for the apparent differring opinions on the performance of the Fuego is simple - some people never really learn what performance is available to the Fuego. they enjoy driving the car as I do, experiencing the effortless power on undulating highways,the driving/touring feel and comfort of the car.

    This alone makes it a great experience and one forgives the rather minor things of aging electrics, etc in the enjoyment of the car - equally someone may have had a bad experience with failure of a component like the alternator or starter clutch etc and felt they had been ripped off with a high repair quote, or a badly set up engine/carby, without ever having the opportunity of driving it for enjoyment.

    As one who just enjoys the car, and now understand how to do my own repairs and enhancements and many kilometres of Fuego driving under my belt, I had never lost control while cornering and could not understand why so many stories were about questioning or raising cornering as an issue.

    Driven well and hard, the car never even looked like getting untidy in corners even with the TRX original tyres, particularly on bitumen and on dirt roads to me it was similar to many cars I had driven, pretty predictable and easy to drive I just could not understand how anyone could lose it on a corner.??

    Recently I had my eyes opened to understand what the car can do when driven under power in and out of corners, with lost of intense gear changing to keep the rev range correct round the twisties up and downhill. (many drivers are o.k. driving uphill, but completely lose confidence downhill).

    The term "running on rails" is the best way to describe going around a downhill sharp bend and remaining on the correct side of the road and having confidence the car will faithfully hold that line as power is progressively applied or that a tap on the brakes at the correct time will maintain enhance control before the apex of the turn.

    I think Richard describes this as become one in harmony with the car and of course if you panic and break this harmony or don't have the confidence and experience you will quickly find yourself, in the bushes.

    properly driven and under driver control the Fuego has great ability, if it is put on a pedestal for that ability, it is rightfully there and plenty who have observed it being correctly driven will attest to that.

    All including Richard would like some more horsepower to compete with cars 30 years advanced in technology, but what we don't want to see is sheer horsepower to the detriment of the excellent handling characteristics of the Fuego or in excess of the abilities of those drivers.

    Myself I enjoy the car for what it is and don't encourage anyone to drive outside the capabilities of the car, themselves as drivers, or to breach road laws.

    Yes - differing levels of experience often give rise to different perceptions - absolutely no need to get personal - disagree sure and be prepared to change your mind if you later find otherwise. IMHO



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  2. #52
    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    understeer is not something that a fuego suffers from when it is driven properly ...even on ice, I haven't had understeer! (which impressed the hell out of me!)

    That's why we do love our fuegos so much...you point the wheels where you want to go, apply power and, just like a goKart...thats the way you go! I have never driven a car that is so beautifully balanced! Even my sprint Kart would understeer a little (but only when the tyres were wasted )

    and Richard's car sits even tighter on the road than mine does!

    Aus
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    ".....the good health of a pond is held in a delicate balance. A pond's condition
    deteriorates when the bottom environment cannot support animal life.
    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

  3. #53
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I dont know much about all this stuff you guys(Mistaren/85fuego) are talking about, and enjoy reading it and soaking up the info.The main car i have for comparison is mums Kia Rio, and this is a good car to compare to a fuego in any condition I can tell my car sucks when I prefer the Rio.The rio beats the fuego hands down on interior noise.
    One thing I do know,is that that my sump area and lower front end gets a hammering when I'm driving hard over crap roads,and if you get a bit of air, watch out front bumper and towing hooks and then sump.Like I said, I dont know many other cars,so I dont know how they would handle the same conditions, but I wish renault would have been able to give the sump a bit more clearence.On my long range radar is some sort of sump guard/front end stiffener,or nylon skids or something.
    Jo

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    One thing I do know,is that that my sump area and lower front end gets a hammering when I'm driving hard over crap roads,and if you get a bit of air, watch out front bumper and towing hooks and then sump.Like I said, I dont know many other cars,so I dont know how they would handle the same conditions, but I wish renault would have been able to give the sump a bit more clearence.On my long range radar is some sort of sump guard/front end stiffener,or nylon skids or something.
    Jo


    What the???

    Is your car lowered Jo?

    If it isn't then I'd love to take it for a spin and see what the front end is up to...

    Then again, if you are getting airborne then the suspension ain't going to be doing much

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 85Fuego
    Lets not get heated/personal we can pick holes in each others arguments all day
    Ummm, heated/personal? Were you reading the same post?

    As for putting a Fuego on a pedestal, I don't try and ram Fuego ownership down anyones throat, I simply enjoy driving them and to me, they feel 'right'.
    The fact that they are reliable and have proven capable of making some much more powerful and credentialed machinery look rather silly would seem to confirm that feeling...

    Perhaps you just haven't driven a good Fuego



  6. #56
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    Your on, I'd like to be a passenger!

    The main reason why I want to modify my Fuego - it doesn't feel right. I tell you the 25 having done lots of K's, having a shagged out front end handles waaaay better than the fuego which has only 1/4 the kilometerage and virtually new bushes.

    I'll keep listening to the suggestions from all guys.

    Regards

    David

  7. #57
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 85Fuego
    Your on, I'd like to be a passenger!

    The main reason why I want to modify my Fuego - it doesn't feel right. I tell you the 25 having done lots of K's, having a shagged out front end handles waaaay better than the fuego which has only 1/4 the kilometerage and virtually new bushes.

    I'll keep listening to the suggestions from all guys.

    Regards

    David
    My fuego was handling not much better than mums Kia, until I smashed the rear axle and dropped a new rear into the car.I dont know for sure which component was improved, but the difference was stagering.
    I dont think my car is lowered, mistareno,and I dont think the front end is lacking, but i'm talking some extreme driving on extreme roads, in particular around the Karringai national park, that is about ten years overdue for a new road, and curently suffers major deformations in the roads sub structure, leaving a relatively good surface, but with very long, maybe 2-3 meter,depressions.Taken at 35 km/h,it is dam uncomfortable, but driven faster, you skim over most of it, like a speedboat in a storm.Everynow and then, just like in the boat, you get a ditch which will launch the car,somewhat,and on return is where the front end can end up diving real hard.I've long since given up trying to keep my tow hooks straight, as they now live in a perminant state of foldedness.

    Mistereno, You very eloquently summed up my main reason for being a fuego owner
    "The fact that they are reliable and have proven capable of making some much more powerful and credentialed machinery look rather silly would seem to confirm that feeling..."
    Jo

  8. #58
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    [I dont think my car is lowered, mistareno,and I dont think the front end is lacking, but i'm talking some extreme driving on extreme roads, in particular around the Karringai national park, that is about ten years overdue for a new road, and curently suffers major deformations in the roads sub structure, leaving a relatively good surface, but with very long, maybe 2-3 meter,depressions.Taken at 35 km/h,it is dam uncomfortable, but driven faster, you skim over most of it, like a speedboat in a storm.Everynow and then, just like in the boat, you get a ditch which will launch the car,somewhat,and on return is where the front end can end up diving real hard.I've long since given up trying to keep my tow hooks straight, as they now live in a perminant state of foldedness.

    How does Mums Kia handle this?

    I have never driven a Feugo or even been driven in one but this sort of teatment would not do wonders for alignments and suspension components in any car.
    I did own a Renault 21 and found it superb in comfort and extremely quiet to ride in compared to other cars of the day. In handling I never pushed it hard but driving it was very predictable. The one negative was on long sweepers it did need a correction part way through.

    It was every thing it was designed for, a very competent family sedan. Sometimes we lose our focus on others cars of the time that were absolute garbage in comparison. Remember the Telstar anyone, the road noise in them was awful.

    There is a nice looking Feugo gathering dust in a garage near here, they still look good.

    I guess I am in a way like Ken in that I can enjoy the feel of the car as a balanced package and do not need to have the car on its limits to do so.

    I learnt long ago that my income doesn't balance with hard driving.

    Graelin

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    I dont think my car is lowered, mistareno,and I dont think the front end is lacking, but i'm talking some extreme driving on extreme roads, in particular around the Karringai national park, that is about ten years overdue for a new road, and curently suffers major deformations in the roads sub structure, leaving a relatively good surface, but with very long, maybe 2-3 meter,depressions.Taken at 35 km/h,it is dam uncomfortable, but driven faster, you skim over most of it, like a speedboat in a storm.Everynow and then, just like in the boat, you get a ditch which will launch the car,somewhat,and on return is where the front end can end up diving real hard.I've long since given up trying to keep my tow hooks straight, as they now live in a perminant state of foldedness.
    From this post (and a few others you have posted regarding your damper problems) it sounds like the car is getting into the top of it's travel and porpoising...

    I had this problem when I initially lowered my car by reseting the front springs and at the same time replacing the front dampers with non genuines...

    From my limited understanding of the Fuego front end (established purely through years of experimenting), they have this porpoising problem due to several reasons which I will try and explain (again, this is what I believe is going on)

    As most Fuegophiles would know, the Fuego spring saddle is located very high on the damper (about an inch from the top of the damper body). This is much higher up the damper body than the R12/17, R18 or R25...

    At the top of the suspension travel (with spring removed and the factory bump stop fitted) there is only about 15cm between the spring saddle on the damper and the spring saddle in the suspension tower.

    This means that when the suspension is getting close to full compression, the spring is almost completely bound (coils compressed upon each other).

    I'm under the impression (from read information from reputable sources), that when a coil spring goes close to bind, the spring rate ramps up significantly. I am assuming that Renault used this trait to provide a variable spring rate effect - light effective rate over bumps, firmer when loaded around corners.

    The whole thing seems to work very well with the factory valved dampers (which as Jo has found are quite hard to replicate) but seems to turn to utter crap when you replace the dampers...

    The other problem that again seems directly related to aftermarket dampers is the lack of correct bump/rebound damping.

    It basically makes the car feel like it has much softer springs and the car gets into the bumpstop/coil bind zone far easier and when you hit the bump stop the spring rate raises exponentially (instantly beyond the parameters of the damper valving) and bounces away. The term suspension tuners use is 'porpoiseing'. The front of the car basically seems to ramp upwards and then come crashing down...

  10. #60
    Fellow Frogger! Westair's Avatar
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    That sounds spot on. Many 70's and 80 cars used springs and suspension settings like that. One reason 504s were had fantastic roadholding in varied conditions was the factory shock absorbers and springs. When rally cars were set up the spring rates had to be very close to progression rate of originals although usually much harder.

    105 series Alfas , which had brilliant handling, use to get a diaganol rocking motion at very high speed sweepers, mostly on race tracks, and you would think you had a problem but it was just characteristic of shocks and springs
    1986 Renault Fuego GTX
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  11. #61
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Great info,Mistereno.It sounds as though you have described my launches perfectly.I'm trying to understand the coil bound scenario.Would all coils go into bind at the same time,or is the coil subtley asymetricall.Once the spring is in bind then what, if the car still has furthur to travel down the hole.Is this load absorbed by the body structure,and tyres,ready to be spat back at the spring in a millisecond,or ?.
    My bumpstops have began to powder, and apparently koni dont make them anymore, so am looking at alternatives.anyone got any???The $2 rubber dog chew toy at the chinese $2 shop is looking the best so far.

    Jo

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