Fuego Fuel Vapour emmission control system
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  1. #1
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    Default Fuego Fuel Vapour emmission control system

    Just before I begin dismantling Australdi's Fuego's fuel vapour control system I thought I might just describe the problem. On Thursday she drove the car to Heidleberg and three quarters filled the tank - car was parked with the rear downhill for a few hours on a very hot day. On the way home she found a strong smell of petrol vapour. and she started an elimination check for the source, the Hatch was shut properly, no excess smell under bonnet, but on checking under the rear of the car found a dribble of fuel running down the inside of the nearside mudguard when she opened the petrol cap slowly, it was highly pressurised.

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    The pressure drop stopped the stream of fuel, but she had lost a fair bit of fuel on the way home. When she part filled the tank she recalled the tank had been pressurised a bit more than she expected, as the tank normally has some pressurisation.

    Some six month back when the car was passed to her I noticed the same strong smell of petrol but all I could see was a sign of a brown fuel weep in the same vicinity - As she wanted to used the vehicle that weekend I told her not to high fill the tank as it might have a weeping leak on the top of the tank ( I had previously repaired a stress crack on the other side of the tank and there was no sign a leak in that area!!)

    I wasn't looking forward to pulling out the tank again as it is a bit of a [email protected]@ger of a job especially to put the tank tray back in over the muffler (small hands and wrists would help )

    Funnily enough there was no sign of fuel leakage, even though it was given a good workout up and down Hills on a drive day and several since and has had several full tanks of fuel (when she can afford it ) with no recurrence of the smell of fuel.

    I suspect that the small plastic check valve on the Fuel vapour line or the line itself back to the charcoal canister may be blocked or obstructed - the Factory and Haynes manual talk of a one way valve and a two way valve (26) and (27) with valve (27) closing off the line in the event of a roll-over.

    I checked the wreck in the backyard and removed its tank last night just to familiarise myself with the layout and location of the valves and buy new lines and clips in preparation for a rush job at her unit. I Iocated the two way valve unit near the tank but didn't find the one way valve (it could be located further along the line as the schermatic drawing is not to scale)

    Has anyone had experience of these valves failing in service or is it more likely to be the vapour line itself or fuel return line - it would certainly be easier to do the two way one than undoing the line and removing the tank again to resecure the line and then reconnect everything. Wet weather doesn't help either!!

    Any tips or information appreciated if it makes life easier!! Di would love to have her car going again for the Sunday Drive!!

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Just before I begin dismantling Australdi's Fuego's fuel vapour control system I thought I might just describe the problem. On Thursday she drove the car to Heidleberg and three quarters filled the tank - car was parked with the rear downhill for a few hours on a very hot day. On the way home she found a strong smell of petrol vapour. and she started an elimination check for the source, the Hatch was shut properly, no excess smell under bonnet, but on checking under the rear of the car found a dribble of fuel running down the inside of the nearside mudguard when she opened the petrol cap slowly, it was highly pressurised.

    The pressure drop stopped the stream of fuel, but she had lost a fair bit of fuel on the way home. When she part filled the tank she recalled the tank had been pressurised a bit more than she expected, as the tank normally has some pressurisation.

    Some six month back when the car was passed to her I noticed the same strong smell of petrol but all I could see was a sign of a brown fuel weep in the same vicinity - As she wanted to used the vehicle that weekend I told her not to high fill the tank as it might have a weeping leak on the top of the tank ( I had previously repaired a stress crack on the other side of the tank and there was no sign a leak in that area!!)

    I wasn't looking forward to pulling out the tank again as it is a bit of a [email protected]@ger of a job especially to put the tank tray back in over the muffler (small hands and wrists would help )

    Funnily enough there was no sign of fuel leakage, even though it was given a good workout up and down Hills on a drive day and several since and has had several full tanks of fuel (when she can afford it ) with no recurrence of the smell of fuel.

    I suspect that the small plastic check valve on the Fuel vapour line or the line itself back to the charcoal canister may be blocked or obstructed - the Factory and Haynes manual talk of a one way valve and a two way valve (26) and (27) with valve (27) closing off the line in the event of a roll-over.

    I checked the wreck in the backyard and removed its tank last night just to familiarise myself with the layout and location of the valves and buy new lines and clips in preparation for a rush job at her unit. I Iocated the two way valve unit near the tank but didn't find the one way valve (it could be located further along the line as the schermatic drawing is not to scale)

    Has anyone had experience of these valves failing in service or is it more likely to be the vapour line itself or fuel return line - it would certainly be easier to do the two way one than undoing the line and removing the tank again to resecure the line and then reconnect everything. Wet weather doesn't help either!!

    Any tips or information appreciated if it makes life easier!! Di would love to have her car going again for the Sunday Drive!!
    Geez Ken, given Di's propensities are you sure that Miranda Spumante at 3 bucks a bottle is not responsible.

    You sound like you are on the right track, the only thing I would suggest is that you also check the canister itself as it can be a mongrel on some other makes (ie Lada and Subaru)

    I spent three days this week pulling apart my Di equivalent's Subaru replacing the water pump, main seals and cam belts.

    I find that kind of work spiritually rewarding....at some point God will speak to you and say " he or she was put on earth to kill you- get over it"...such is the life of another sad old bastard.

    BTW the smell of unleaded is a part and parcel of being a Lada owner....I don't know how many Russian smokers used to own ladas before their untimely demises but I would guess it would be lots.

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  3. #3
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    Way back in March 1983 LNC issued a service instruction with stickers for the fuel flap as a warning against the fuel tank pressurising. Obviously things must have escalated in the following months as by Jan 1984 a further instruction was issued regarding fuel tank pressure.

    "The fuel tank breather pipe to the charcoal canister has a two way valve fitted, which is to be modified to overcome the pressure build up in fuel tanks"

    1363 Version
    A. Lower fuel tank to gain access for the removal of the two way valve which is located adjacent to the fuel tank outlet.

    B. Drill a 1.5mm hole through the centre diaphragm of the two way valve, blow out swarf, refit breather pipes.

    C. Refit fuel tank

    D. Submit warranty claim for 0.8 hours.

    Providing the modification is performed correctly, there will be neutral pressure in the fuel tank, neither vacuum or pressure, which should overcome the fuel tank splitting problem and permit owners to remove fuel tank caps without the usual rush of escaping air and or petrol.

    The 1984 version Renault Fuego will not be fitted with this valve in the breather system.......

    To indicate the modification has been carried out, we suggest a yellow dot of approx 10mm diameter be painted on the inside surface of the petrol flap as a quick reference that the modification has been carried out. Vehicles that already have the valve modified, but not marked by the yellow dot can be identified by the lack of pressure when the fuel cap is removed. These vehicles should now be marked with a yellow dot for other dealers identification"
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fuego Fuel Vapour emmission control system-mvc-295f.jpg  

  4. #4
    wielder of the sword Australdi's Avatar
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    Icon10 woohoo! a warranty job!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    D. Submit warranty claim for 0.8 hours.
    [/I]
    wonder what my chances of them accepting that if the modification hadn't been done!??
    would be a laugh to try though!

    Aus
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    deteriorates when the bottom environment cannot support animal life.
    The bottom is the area that runs out of oxygen first, it is where the most oxygen is used........"



    '84 fuego GTX
    '87 fuego GTX
    '85 fuego GTX
    ....beginning to look a bit frightning isn't it.

  5. #5
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    Icon14 Thanks Simon

    I'm not sure if this is the whole answer as Di's is a 1985 build (without P/S) but it may have slipped through, the 1984 spares car that I pulled the tank out of has the two way valve still fitted but on its own line near the base of the tank filler and that is where I think the leak is coming from - will see today and the tank is pressurising! so indications look good for a quick fix, albiet a time consuming one - not much room to manourvre!

    So again thanks for the helpful information - will be heading over to start work on it in about an hour - much nicer day -cool cloudy no rain yet.

    Will let you know what I find.

    And Di I don't think we will pursue that warranty claim!!

    Simon I think that explains something that has puzzled many of us, that some Fuego tanks have higher pressure than others and some tanks are easier and quicker to fill with Fuel - some are real slow and will blow back if you try to fill too rapidly.

    Regards
    Ken

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    Might be worth checking that the sender unit in the tank isn't leaking also...

    Just rip of the rubber bung and have a look/smell

    It won't explain the presurisation, but it might explain the leak...

  7. #7
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    Default Fuego tank removed

    Pulled the tank out of Di's car this afternoon, main leak apppeared to be the old style wind up clamp, that allowed the large rubber sleeve to leak where it connects to the filler pipe tube - this looked hopeful that a new worm drive clip would correct this problem.

    The setup on this car is different to the earlier one in that a one way valve is fitted adjacent to the filler pipe (provides for venting of vapours and also a roll over leak preventer) This does appear to operate and sits just under the filler neck. checked its operation and it does vent - checked the line to the charcoal filter and it does vent, but slowly.

    Was just about to put the tank back with a new Jubilee clip on the rubber connector when we spotted a possible weap on the top of the tank - talcum powder soon confirmed that three spot welds on a baffle inside the tank had started to weap fuel (not the prolific leak from the rubber connector) and one of the small rubber vent pipes had a small hole in it.

    Tank has now been bought back for further soldering and repairs, my original soldered repair is still holding with no signs of weakening, so will do a similar repair with a sweated on plate over the spot welds.

    Has anyone had experience with the rollover valve system on the later 1984 onwards tank system - will see Ken on Monday if he has any replacements.

    Took a few digital pictures will try and post these later.

    Emptied 20 litres of fuel from the tank by siphoning prior to removing - also I was able to unhook the exhaust rubber hangers and move the exhaust sideways to get access the the 3 10mm nuts and bolts to the tray that spans the inner and outer walls and remove inlet hose - it is much more complicated with its additional piping than the earlier one.

    Regards Ken.
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 4th December 2005 at 12:30 AM.

  8. #8
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    Default Trying to add attachments

    Thanks to Vivid who called in this morning I hope that the tank filler thumbnails will display Anyway this is the early and later tank filler configuration I was talking about.

    Ken

    Edit note [Since the upgrade recently I cannot directly view thumbnails, but can click on the area and get one thumbnail to display, in this case I can get the early configuration to display on my computer by clicking on it but not the later configuration tank inlet set up] If anyone can throw any light on the reason I'd like to know!!]
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Fuego Fuel Vapour emmission control system-fuego-1363-nov84-reg85.jpg   Fuego Fuel Vapour emmission control system-84-fuego-early-tank-filler.jpg  
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 4th December 2005 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Call me the consumer if you like, I've busted two fuego tanks on the edge seams by overloading the rear.The first time was moving house, and the second time was with an entire ikea flat pack kitchen
    Jo

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    Default Need a new cartoon - gonz where are you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    Call me the consumer if you like, I've busted two fuego tanks on the edge seams by overloading the rear.The first time was moving house, and the second time was with an entire ikea flat pack kitchen
    Jo
    Times like this I would like to be an artist and produce one of those slick cartoons with Jo as the demon fuego demolisher

    Anyway back to the tank - cleaned it and used a large electric soldering iron to spread solder (Tinning) over the cleaned patch, I then cut a piece of galvanized iron to cover the area, tinned one side of that patch and then sweated the patch on the outside -nice durable repair. Then pressurized the tank and checked for any more leaks. O.K.

    Just as an aside I always used to buy Spririts of salts and use perforated zinc to kill the spirits (acid) but found you can't seem to buy Spirits of salts, only Bakers soldering Fluid in large containers - tried the soldering fluid and then went back to my trusty killed spirits of salts a far better tinning fluid and less costly too (if you can get it!!)

    Now just need to have a look at the canister and lines to ensure those are working o.k. I am reluctant to remove the rollover valve or disable it, as the minute restriction in the escape of gas system may help with fuel delivery around the twisties, and you know how Di likes the twisties

    The tank is still supposed to be slightly pressurised, its how to keep it at a reasonable pressure on hot days, any advice welcome

  11. #11
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    How about a tiny, tiny hole in the fuel cap, should just let it vent slightly?
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  12. #12
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    Default Have a locking caps that vents but..

    Quote Originally Posted by Europa
    How about a tiny, tiny hole in the fuel cap, should just let it vent slightly?
    I have an after market Fuego locking cap that vents through the keyhole that I bought years ago, but it also leaked weeped fuel through the keyhole, so I replaced it with one of Ken Baileys genuine locking caps - not sure which car it was on.

    I am hoping that we can get a more reliable valve replacement before the tank goes back in this week.

    Thanks for the suggestion.

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    Default Tanks back in

    Been a busy week, but finally got tank painted and back in her car today with a little bit of help from a taswegian who pushed, pulled and guided things into place, typical french mechanical arrangement, when you get it at the right angle just so, in it goes.

    Putting the tank inlet undertray back was even easier than I remembered it from last time, we even squeakproofed the spare wheel latch for the final touch - now just need to solder up a spare tank "just in case" for the future.

    The tinned and sweated on patch is much more secure than the usual epoxy lumps on most tanks

    Tank is on a pressure watch just in case, though it now has new clips on all the hoses.

    Ken at Caravelles doesn't have any of the later relief valves, but does have some similar to the early ones. Simon is there any mention in the Australian service notes of refitting a modified valve later?

    Ken

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    Default Short lived run!!

    Ah when things go wrong - Phone call from Di - cars stuck in Bourke Road!!, fuel starvation - yep looks like the petrol pump carked itself, rigged up a gravity feed - runs o.k. but only a dribble of fuel when it should be a squirt!!

    So my car went off to Woodend and Di's awaits a heart transplant tomorrow with a spare fuel pump - then complete system test to make sure nothing else is amiss. Ah the joys of motoring.....still could happen to any car of this age
    Will post the result in due course..
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 10th December 2005 at 10:06 PM. Reason: minor

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego
    Ah when things go wrong - Phone call from Di - cars stuck in Bourke Road!!, fuel starvation - yep looks like the petrol pump carked itself, rigged up a gravity feed - runs o.k. but only a dribble of fuel when it should be a squirt!!

    So my car went off to Woodend and Di's awaits a heart transplant tomorrow with a spare fuel pump - then complete system test to make sure nothing else is amiss. Ah the joys of motoring.....still could happen to any car of this age
    Will post the result in due course..
    You miss the point Ken.....look beyond the mechanics to the metaphysics......this is a reminder that your children are put on earth to do you in ..in the nicest possible way...but do you in none the less. I too have noticed this in recent weeks..towing childrens cars in the dead of night several days spent bathing in grease...not to mention the reluctant use of intemperate language.

    Having said that, I'm happy enough now that the bloody thing is fixed.

    Every now and then after a few Coopers I run outside, look up in the general direction of the hereafter and shout " OK Dad, I know I was a shit of a kid...I'm sorry...Now will you call them off?"
    Last edited by BogMaster; 10th December 2005 at 10:22 PM.
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    Icon7 The Zen Mechanic company!

    Quote Originally Posted by BogMaster
    You miss the point Ken.....look beyond the mechanics to the metaphysics......this is a reminder that your children are put on earth to do you in ..in the nicest possible way...but do you in none the less. I too have noticed this in recent weeks..towing childrens cars in the dead of night several days spent bathing in grease...not to mention the reluctant use of intemperate language.

    Having said that, I'm happy enough now that the bloody thing is fixed.

    Every now and then after a few Coopers I run outside, look up in the general direction of the hereafter and shout " OK Dad, I know I was a shit of a kid...I'm sorry...Now will you call them off?"
    Thanks Mate!

    My Dad is alive and kicking at 95, so he did survive my callow youth and when my kids are "trying" he does gently remind me of things best forgotten, but in the nicest possible way

    Son called in briefly on his way to the country and reminded me that he also needs some work done on his car also, but then its a matter of finding time (or another mechanic willing to work for nothing but love! ) in his busy work and social schedule

    Maybe one day they will keep their poor old dad/mum out of the poorhouse.!

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    My fuego did not handle being 65 degrees inside the cabin yesterday, and decided to start doing the fuel tank thing in an effort to rid itself of some petrol
    Now i've read and re-read this thread, but am a little confused what the actual problem ended up being in the end.Was the valve at fault,was it replaced or drilled, and did it fix the problem.
    Cheers,Jo

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    Default Somewhat unresolved but seems o.k. since

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    My fuego did not handle being 65 degrees inside the cabin yesterday, and decided to start doing the fuel tank thing in an effort to rid itself of some petrol
    Now i've read and re-read this thread, but am a little confused what the actual problem ended up being in the end.Was the valve at fault,was it replaced or drilled, and did it fix the problem.
    Cheers,Jo

    Jo I would love to report that there was a faulty part that I replaced, as much as I tried to find the later style valve faulty it seems to be working o.k. in the end I concluded that the original leak was from pressure build up and the lousy original banding that secured the rubber tubing to the tank inlet that allowed petrol to weap out - the repair to the top of the tank was due to normal flexing of the tank top against the spot welds securing the baffles and hairline cracking around those spot welds - easy to see once you remove the tank and sprinkle talcum powder in the vicinity, the petrol in the crack will wick out onto the talcum powder making the cracking very visible.

    To solder the tank it is worthwhile investing in a large birko style electric soldering iron, it will allow sufficient heating to sweat on the patch plate - its also very good for soldering on radiators that can be difficult to get sufficient heat as the brass quickly dissapates the heat from a normal soldering iron - it also has the advantge of having no real ignition source to ignite gasoline when soldering a tank. (Please don't smoke while soldering )

    Di's car has been driven over the past weeks with no recurrence of the leaking problem or excessive pressurisation of the tank.

    Ken

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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    This might sound silly, but if the breather system is working,and the carbon canister is doing its job, how much expansion is likely to take place given that the tank was filled to the max on a cool night,say 15 degrees, and the next day the interior of the car reaches 65-70 on a heatwave 42 degree day??
    Jo

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    I would suspect that is the perfect reason why manufacturers suggest you don't "brim" the tank with fuel...
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    Default That same thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    This might sound silly, but if the breather system is working,and the carbon canister is doing its job, how much expansion is likely to take place given that the tank was filled to the max on a cool night,say 15 degrees, and the next day the interior of the car reaches 65-70 on a heatwave 42 degree day??
    Jo
    Europa - think there is merit in your advice, expansion of fuel would be ok with vapour exiting to the canister via a thin line, that may clog if an excess of liquid is forced into heading the same way.

    The set up of the tank is to always have some positive pressure in the system and a one way valve in the delivery side probably assists with this. there is also a return pipe to the top of the tank to allow the petrol pump to work at its maximum efficiency and any fuel delivery in excess to requirements of the engine is diverted back to the tank.

    In Di's car, I think that it had enough fuel level in the tank to leak at the rubber jointing, but was certainly not over filled at the time (budget restrictions!!) and in any case she never fills over the recommended level of just below the nozzle gate - the manual states somewhere that above that level is wasteful in terms of fuel economy

    By the way I prefer the solder patch method as it rarely leaks and provides extra strength to the tank wall - most stick on fuel system suitable epoxy patches work o.k. as a temporary (often left as permanent!!) repair and may be easier than removing the tank though weeping may still occur years later.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    I always fill to the marker,as a true reference point to evaluate my consumption.I think that that practice will have to go, and Ill just put in maybe 10 L less.
    Jo

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    Default Why they sell it by volume!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jo proffi
    I always fill to the marker,as a true reference point to evaluate my consumption.I think that that practice will have to go, and Ill just put in maybe 10 L less.
    Jo
    Jo back in my dim dark memories is a recollection of an experiment my then Science Teacher "Strappo" Eddy used to do for us in secondary school in which he would warm a kerosene tin of petrol and it would expand through a tube to a clear glass recepticle to show why petrol companies sold their fuel by volume, not weight!!

    He said that in the "olden" days unscrupulous country garages would always have fuel ready pumped up into the glass container on the top of the bowser so it would expand in the sunshine (up to 1/5th I seem to recall) and increase their profit of course, as a "service to my customer, reducing his time at the pump"!!

    Gee that sounds just like some politicians spin doctoring!!

    Apparently tankers deliver fuel to service stations at some set temperature, how we get it is anyones guess. "Strappo" always bought his fuel at the coldest part of the day to maximise the volume delivered into his tank .

    If I were you I would check the worm drive clamping bands on rubber connection to your tank - Invest in two new ones also some of the fuel delivery hoses showed signs of deterioration so I either replaced or trimmed them, just in case.

  24. #24
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    Touring cars kept their fuel at very low temp for a few years -especially at Bathurst-until it was banned by CAMS
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    1000+ Posts jo proffi's Avatar
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    Ken,I will be replacing the worm clips. in fact i will be replacing the whole bloody tank and all its mates as I'm totaly over the smell of petrol.
    If petrol does expand 1/5 of its volume, we are talking about 10 L of expansion overflow.No wonder my tank cant cope.
    Jo

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