Car Trailers
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 4 1234 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 80
Like Tree11Likes

Thread: Car Trailers

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! MARK BIRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    GOLD COAST
    Posts
    266

    Default Car Trailers

    Does anyone in Melbourne remember a old guy at Clayton who hired car trailers that where unique. They had wheels at each corner and did not have a solid axle all the way across. This lowered the trailer down a great deal but the best bit was that the front end steered with you. The A arm was connected to steering linkage to a set of what I thought was a set of Holden king pin front axles enableing the front to steer with you. I have towed many a Rally car back from the boonies with this trailer and you could not get a more stable trailer than this and as the trailer supported the weight of the car completly you are only tugging it along . I have a pet hatred of conventional tandem trailers and think they are not so safe and after using this old guys design makes them look wrong. Believe me when I say this is one fantastic trailer and is so stable that a mate of mine in a Pug 504 had a R8 rally car on the back and sat on 80mph down the Hume with this thing in tow and not a murmer or shake from it. It looked weird as the car sits so much lower that it looks like its tailgating you. Any way what I am after is a rough drawing of one if any one knows the location of one. It also had a usefull feature in when the trailer was not loaded a set of boat wheels and axles could be lowered in the centre of the trailer and the front steering locked so it behaved like a normal trailer. I think this was to aid backing the trailer in a conventional way when unloaded as it was a bit of a bitch to back unless your a truck driver with twin trailer experiance.

    Advertisement

  2. #2
    Moderator vivid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    parallel 43į south
    Posts
    1,880

    Default

    Sound interesting, I am looking at ways to use the 25 to tow Dauphines, R8's, 10s around, without using one of those HEAVY tandems, not to mention the loading on your rear when towing over the bumpys.

    Apparently the 'mobitow' style of trailer is illegal in VIC now... ?
    Often I see Flatbed trucks with a car on the tray, and another car towing with 2 of its wheels on the road. confused.

    Was considering designing a light trailer, the design you describe could help bring weight down I was thinking, because of the more evenly distributed weight.

    David.
    Powered by high grade French plutonium.

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vivid
    Sound interesting, I am looking at ways to use the 25 to tow Dauphines, R8's, 10s around, without using one of those HEAVY tandems, not to mention the loading on your rear when towing over the bumpys.

    Apparently the 'mobitow' style of trailer is illegal in VIC now... ?
    Often I see Flatbed trucks with a car on the tray, and another car towing with 2 of its wheels on the road. confused.

    Was considering designing a light trailer, the design you describe could help bring weight down I was thinking, because of the more evenly distributed weight.

    David.
    Those little trailer 'mobitow' trailers are useless 'cos you can't put flat hydraulic Citroens on them (they need a trailer with suspension under them).

    Damien Gardner (a member here) built a 4wheel trailer as described, apparantly there a sh!t of a thing to back up. In my head I have an idea of a trailer that I want to build oneday when I have time or $$$ (yeah it'll probably a an 'idea for a long time).

    4wheel like above, but using a Citroen trailing arm for each arm with a single cylinder hydraulic pump powering the trailers hydraulics. With the trailer on 'low' it's bed would be on the ground (ie: no ramps required and 'flat' Citroens would roll straight on). With the trailer on 'high' all you would need is an axle stand for each corner of the trailer and you have yourself a mobile low lift car hoist for accessing the underneath of cars

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  4. #4
    UFO
    UFO is offline
    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gerringong, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    9,700

    Default

    Many a Citronutter has dreamt of building a hydraulic trailer. AFAIK the only successful one ever built was the Jerry Hathaway one in LA that he tows his racing SM on.

    I do recall a vague mention of a trailer made with the rear end of a D but I think it had horse cart suspension.

    Bob Dircks has built and used a trailer for transporting DS that is very successful. IIRC, it is hinged in the centre and he uses a boat winch in a similar style that Shane uses for hauling the car up onto the bed where it then overbalances to flat.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Canberra,act,australia
    Posts
    1,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Many a Citronutter has dreamt of building a hydraulic trailer. AFAIK the only successful one ever built was the Jerry Hathaway one in LA that he tows his racing SM on.

    I do recall a vague mention of a trailer made with the rear end of a D but I think it had horse cart suspension.

    Bob Dircks has built and used a trailer for transporting DS that is very successful. IIRC, it is hinged in the centre and he uses a boat winch in a similar style that Shane uses for hauling the car up onto the bed where it then overbalances to flat.
    Which forum is this......the absinthe sucking hydraulic head forum or the common or garden gnome Renault forum?

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,366

    Default

    Bogmaster,
    Not like you . I agree it's probably in the wrong section, but I have been following this thread with interest. At some stage, I too would like to build the ideal lightweight and towable car trailer.

    Any self-respecting Renault owner wants, and needs instant access to the necessities of life to pick up errant or opportunistic renaults - and a major need is a car trailer.

    I have (Shudder) turned down the offer of several renaults for free or minimal cost on the basis that the cost to hire a trailer tips it into the "too expensive to bother category".

    Carry on chaps, french cars and car trailers - it's a need, not a want.
    But, how about some specifics - pics, drawings, "this is one I built previously"

    KB

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Canberra,act,australia
    Posts
    1,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10
    Bogmaster,
    Not like you . I agree it's probably in the wrong section, but I have been following this thread with interest. At some stage, I too would like to build the ideal lightweight and towable car trailer.

    Any self-respecting Renault owner wants, and needs instant access to the necessities of life to pick up errant or opportunistic renaults - and a major need is a car trailer.

    I have (Shudder) turned down the offer of several renaults for free or minimal cost on the basis that the cost to hire a trailer tips it into the "too expensive to bother category".

    Carry on chaps, french cars and car trailers - it's a need, not a want.
    But, how about some specifics - pics, drawings, "this is one I built previously"

    KB
    You're right Kevin car trailers are a great thing. The only major issue being where to hide them if space is tight. As far as building one goes the only obstacle I can see is making sure the finished product complies sufficiently to get a vin number for it.

    I guess those of the dripping hydraulic oil club could have a greater need for a trailer than most of us and would be naturally attracted to a trailer thread no matter what the forum.

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Ballarat,Vic,Aust.
    Posts
    16,370

    Default

    I've registered a home built 8x5 box trailer. Trust me at VicRoads they wouldn't know there arses from the elbows. There the most useless [email protected] you'll ever come across. It took me 4trips up there with the trailer on 4 different occasions to be told numerous different [email protected] about what needed to be done. In the end when I finally got it registered they just looked at it through the window from inside and didn't even check if the lights worked, let alone the trailer met all the relevant spec's with side lights, reflectors, measurements, integrity of build quality etc...

    Bacisally once your through dealing with the useless [email protected] of sh!t up there, the onus really is on the owner to ensure it is safe for use on the roads. 'Cos the useless d!ckheads up there have no idea.

    Really the simplest type of trailer I can come up with, is a simple frame 2ramps with an open area in the middle (full floor --especially checkerplate == bloody heavy), 4 CX rear trailing arms (keeping the whole trailer very low, with no need for an axle underneath). The biggest issue would be driving the hydraulic pump on the trailer. Possibly a small electric motor with a trickle fed battery from the cars charging system would be ideal.

    As soon as you start talking checkerplate floors, guages, twin axles, big long ramps your also talking big weight. The lower the trailer is the shorter/no-existant the ramps can be.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    pug206gti likes this.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Canberra,act,australia
    Posts
    1,457

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron
    I've registered a home built 8x5 box trailer. Trust me at VicRoads they wouldn't know there arses from the elbows. There the most useless [email protected] you'll ever come across. It took me 4trips up there with the trailer on 4 different occasions to be told numerous different [email protected] about what needed to be done. In the end when I finally got it registered they just looked at it through the window from inside and didn't even check if the lights worked, let alone the trailer met all the relevant spec's with side lights, reflectors, measurements, integrity of build quality etc...

    Bacisally once your through dealing with the useless [email protected] of sh!t up there, the onus really is on the owner to ensure it is safe for use on the roads. 'Cos the useless d!ckheads up there have no idea.

    Really the simplest type of trailer I can come up with, is a simple frame 2ramps with an open area in the middle (full floor --especially checkerplate == bloody heavy), 4 CX rear trailing arms (keeping the whole trailer very low, with no need for an axle underneath). The biggest issue would be driving the hydraulic pump on the trailer. Possibly a small electric motor with a trickle fed battery from the cars charging system would be ideal.

    As soon as you start talking checkerplate floors, guages, twin axles, big long ramps your also talking big weight. The lower the trailer is the shorter/no-existant the ramps can be.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Up here Shane things can be different. My trailer mad mates have had differing experiences when it came to compliance. One mob in the ACT would bend over backwards to help you, another in neighbouring NSW would do everything possible to piss you off, discourage you and maybe flog you a new trailer of their own manufacture.

    When I was young I used to hang around East Sydney Tech...the National Art School in NSW. One of my earliest memories of that time was watching one of the lecturers cars...a black DS21, very much in need of LHM viagra being gently winched on to a car trailer. Glad to hear nothing much changes. BTW at the time I would just about have killed to have the privilege of having one of those so it could be gently winched on to a trailer.

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,366

    Default

    There's pretty much a national code of practise for building small trailers (<4.5T), and you can purchase a copy of the code from the federal office of Road Safety. The bulletin is VSB 1.

    It covers most of the stuff you would need to know for rego re what colour lights and reflectors, where they should be etc etc.

    Dealing with the RTA, Vicroads etc etc is never pleasurable but at least if you have the basics covered.....

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! MARK BIRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    GOLD COAST
    Posts
    266

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vivid
    Sound interesting, I am looking at ways to use the 25 to tow Dauphines, R8's, 10s around, without using one of those HEAVY tandems, not to mention the loading on your rear when towing over the bumpys.

    Apparently the 'mobitow' style of trailer is illegal in VIC now... ?
    Often I see Flatbed trucks with a car on the tray, and another car towing with 2 of its wheels on the road. confused.

    Was considering designing a light trailer, the design you describe could help bring weight down I was thinking, because of the more evenly distributed weight.

    David.
    The guy I am thinking about had these things registered and able to be hired so Vic Roads must not have had a problem. I liked the idea of low tow height and stability of a wheel at each corner. Plus no draw bar weight on the car as you are only tugging it along. The Trailer was a bitch to back up like a truck and its dog trailer but you got used to it. Thats why it had dolly wheels for unladen towing. I really wished I had taken measurements when I hired it one day. Looks like it might be back to the drawing board.

  12. #12
    bob
    bob is offline
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Skipton
    Posts
    2,381

    Default

    Sounds alot like the old A-frame set up that we used to use [now illegal ??] to move sick vehicles. There is no connection to the "steering gear", the towee just follows you around as the caster angle [I think ?] makes the front wheels of the towee turn, from the side force applied, when the tower turns. Very wierd sitting in the driving seat of the towee, as was required at the time by law, with the steering wheel going to and fro of its own accord.
    All that was necessary was a tow adaptor with two water pipes attached, about 38mm NB, with chains at the other end to attach to the dead vehicle. The favoured spot was the lower front wishbone on each side. The A shaped setup must be lockable into a solid unit. The mystery trailer would have just had a modified front suspension at the leading end.
    Cheers,
    Bob

  13. #13
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    Thread resurrection of the decade here.

    I have been looking into various car trailer ideas and the wheel at each corner idea does appeal.

    The positives seem to be:

    Easier on the tow vehicle as there is no towball down weight.
    No sway problems.
    Potentially lower center of gravity.
    Lower height of tray without scraping on driveways.
    Potentially lighter, as the tray and load are supported at both ends.
    Potentially shorter and easier to store, as the A frame can tilt up, making the trailer a similar length to a car (this can be accomplished with a conventional trailer too.
    No problems opening doors on the trailer.


    The negatives:
    Harder to reverse as there is a pivot at the car and the trailer.
    More complicate to construct.

    Anyway, after playing with the boys lego technic I think I have found a way to make reversing it really easy, by having a fairly short a-frame drawbar fixed at the trailer end and the steering operated by a linkage connected to a bracket clamped to the tow bar tongue (with a hole in the middle to slip over the tow ball) you remove the double articulation, which will makes life much easier when reversing.

    I was thinking of using either a Mitsubishi L300 front end or an old Holden front end, with the hubs reversed, so they face forwards (for connection to steering)


    The Holden is self contained (no track rods etc) and could be bolted directly to the chassis rails of the trailer with some bracing.

    The space between the uprights would be a good size for a toolbox and compressor etc and would prevent stone chips on the towed car

    If I go for the Holden front end, it has a 5x107.95 pcd which is the same as most trailer wheels and brakes.

    For the rear end, I would use Renault Scenic Rx4 trailing arms which are a drop axle (they will also accept 5 x 107.95 wheels - technically they are 5x108). I would mount the trailing arms 1500mm or so short of rear to equalise the load on the tyres and allow sufficient angle to get the back of the trailer on the ground when lowered.

    I'd ideally like to keep everything mechanical for simplicity, but I think it will just be lighter and easier to use airbags for the rear suspension so I could dump the rear and drive on to the trailer.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Car Trailers-suspensionhr.jpg  
    Last edited by mistareno; 30th January 2016 at 05:02 PM.

  14. #14
    VIP Sponsor David Cavanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Romsey, Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    4,821

    Default

    Off you go. Just consider yours a practise run and do mine properly.
    addo and JohnW like this.
    David Cavanagh

    FRENCH CONNECTION / PEUGEO WRECKING / RENOSPARES / CITROWRECK

    03 9338 8191 or 03 93354008

    34 KING St
    AIRPORT WEST
    VIC 3042


    [email protected]

    https://www.facebook.com/FrenchConect

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! geodon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    511

    Default Drool!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RflkZn2jP8

    This, I think, is an NZ invention and uses air bags. Anyway the trailer is nearly as expensive as the car on it!

    Actually it's about $20K


    There are cheaper (~$7K) alternatives locally:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZekF8rlD4H4

    I've had my basic 12 foot tandem unit for ~ 20 years. I now don't have strength I had when I bought it & I'd love something like the above but I'll probably just replace the steel ramps (damn heavy!) with aluminium ones & make do.
    "Pauses for audience applause......not a sausage!"....Bluebottle

    1949 Citroen Big 6
    1955 MGA1500
    1970 Peugeot 404 Utility (Resto project)
    1962 Renault Dauphine Gordini (Resto project)
    1950 Grey Fergie Tractor

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    [QUOTE=geodon;
    I've had my basic 12 foot tandem unit for ~ 20 years. I now don't have strength I had when I bought it & I'd love something like the above but I'll probably just replace the steel ramps (damn heavy!) with aluminium ones & make do.[/QUOTE]

    I built my tandem when I was 20 that was 54 years ago. We were one of the few with a tandem at race meetings back then. Many still drove there cars there or had a single axle trailer. Once travelling back from Winton we lost a wheel and at 75 mph the Jaguar tow car didn't even notice. Took my mate in the back seat to see sparks as the axle occasionally hit the road. True like grandfathers axe its had just about everything replaced over the years but is still the same design it hasn't changed. It was used as part of my work for about 24 years and has carried many cars and other materials over the years. But like Geodon the ramps are now too heavy for me, how I'd like some aluminium ones.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,366

    Default

    Rather than build one as I indicated 10yrs ago, I ended up buying a single axle tilt trailer off eBay. 12hr return drive to pick it up that may have put a few off meant I got it relatively cheap $2600 or 2800 from memory. No ramp worries for me!

    I also recently added an remote controlled electric winch, but the downside is it can only be run from my ute as no one else is likely to have the anderson plug and power required at the rear.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Car Trailers-dscn2402.jpg   Car Trailers-towing5.jpg  
    Last edited by renault8&10; 31st January 2016 at 05:03 PM.
    KB


  18. #18
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by geodon View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RflkZn2jP8

    This, I think, is an NZ invention and uses air bags. Anyway the trailer is nearly as expensive as the car on it!

    Actually it's about $20K
    I've seen them. I think they are actually hydraulic, not air.

    They also have a few issues imho.

    Most importantly, they are bloody heavy. The ATM of the lightest, cheapest, single axle trailer is 2750kg with a cargo capacity of 1800kg, so you can only tow it with a 4WD and the trailer alone weighs almost 1000kg. The tandem is even heavier.

    They have little to no suspension.

    They are complicated and require an extra power connection, requiring a specific tow vehicle.

    If you are alone and drive the car on, you'd have to be Houdini to get out, because the wheels are up high and alongside the door, you can't open them (a wireless remote control option would be good - so you can raise the tray from the car).

    Even with the tray up, you might struggle to open doors.

    I personally reckon they are more style than substance. They look great going up and down, but when you actually look at what is desirable in a car trailer, all they have going for them is the ultra low deck angle.
    Last edited by mistareno; 31st January 2016 at 03:17 PM.

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Boonah Qld
    Posts
    2,523

    Default

    When I first had my tandem I had ramps that ran the full length of the tray up the middle of the trailer. Despite the fact that my trailer is very low they had to be that long because at that time my open wheel race car was so close to the ground. Got rid of them later as that car went and they rattled.

  20. #20
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    When I first had my tandem I had ramps that ran the full length of the tray up the middle of the trailer. Despite the fact that my trailer is very low they had to be that long because at that time my open wheel race car was so close to the ground. Got rid of them later as that car went and they rattled.
    Was it the ramp over where the ramps met the trailer or the approach angle that dictated the long ramps?

    For a single seater, the one above would be ideal, but singles seaters are lucky to weigh 600kg, so there is no need for the weight. There are far lighter single axle 'zero angle' trailers on the market.

    These weigh 350kg...

    Last edited by mistareno; 31st January 2016 at 05:38 PM.

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,366

    Default

    Those race king trailers are nice. So are the ones by Bemco I think it is (Girraween NSW).
    KB


  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    MANDURAH WA
    Posts
    381

    Default

    Is this what you have in mind?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Car Trailers-trailer01.jpg  

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    168

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    I built my tandem when I was 20 that was 54 years ago. We were one of the few with a tandem at race meetings back then. Many still drove there cars there or had a single axle trailer. Once travelling back from Winton we lost a wheel and at 75 mph the Jaguar tow car didn't even notice. Took my mate in the back seat to see sparks as the axle occasionally hit the road. True like grandfathers axe its had just about everything replaced over the years but is still the same design it hasn't changed. It was used as part of my work for about 24 years and has carried many cars and other materials over the years. But like Geodon the ramps are now too heavy for me, how I'd like some aluminium ones.
    I had a similar problem(I'm a little older than you) hinged the ramps in the middle so that they fold in half then hinged them to the back of the trailer, when not in use they are vertical and supported by a 45 degree brace from the deck, quick and easy to use, disconnect the brace and unfold the ramp as you lower it.

    Cheers

    Grah am Lewis
    Sunroof likes this.

  24. #24
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    Yeah, pretty close. I'd like to see the front coupling. Apparently, they are a pain in the are to reverse because they are usually double jointed.


    The one above gets around the reversing issue by fixing the draw bar to the trailer and it looks very easy to reverse, but the trailer overhang and the length of the draw bar means the front of the trailer is on a significantly tighter line that the towing car on tight corners. I'm not sure why they made it so long, as it really only needs enough clearance to avoid hitting the car when on full lock, as the trailer can't jacknife like a pig trailer when reversing.

    You can see the issue more on this picture. I could see roundabouts being wiped out with that trailer...


  25. #25
    Administrator
    mistareno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    4,926

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Lewis View Post
    I had a similar problem(I'm a little older than you) hinged the ramps in the middle so that they fold in half then hinged them to the back of the trailer, when not in use they are vertical and supported by a 45 degree brace from the deck, quick and easy to use, disconnect the brace and unfold the ramp as you lower it.

    Cheers

    Grah am Lewis
    They do work well, but it depends on how long the trailer deck is. If it has a car that overhangs the deck you're stuck with ramps that can't be stowed properly. You can usually rig something up with straps, but it can be a pita.

Page 1 of 4 1234 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •