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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! ColinJ's Avatar
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    Default road tolls

    bet this starts a debate.

    according to danielsydney's link to "renault, leaders in rear seat safety" a few hours ago, there are 3500 deaths a year on teh roads in france. A quick bit of research gives teh french population as 60.6 million. Victoria's population is just on 5 million and we have a road toll of 345.

    That makes the Victorian road toll 20% worse than the french, per capita.

    Differences that might cause this:

    130 kph limit vs 100??
    the french drink more at lunchtime and have fewer booze buses (if any) ??
    there are more 5-star NCAP renaults in France than in Vic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinJ
    bet this starts a debate.

    according to danielsydney's link to "renault, leaders in rear seat safety" a few hours ago, there are 3500 deaths a year on teh roads in france. A quick bit of research gives teh french population as 60.6 million. Victoria's population is just on 5 million and we have a road toll of 345.

    That makes the Victorian road toll 20% worse than the french, per capita.

    Differences that might cause this:

    130 kph limit vs 100??
    the french drink more at lunchtime and have fewer booze buses (if any) ??
    there are more 5-star NCAP renaults in France than in Vic...
    It's obvious- we need more speed cameras!
    Sorry, I meant safety cameras...can't get that right....yeah probably lower speed limits too...
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    You forget... more cars per head population in Australia.
    Australians cover more kms per year per head of population.

    Anyway. I think his figures are wrong.

    I have the figures for 2003
    Australia 1633 fatalities

    Or... 8.2 people killed per 100,000 head of population

    France is 13.8 people killed per 100,000 head of population.

    Therefore... the fatality rate is far higher in France than here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinJ
    bet this starts a debate.

    according to danielsydney's link to "renault, leaders in rear seat safety" a few hours ago, there are 3500 deaths a year on teh roads in france. A quick bit of research gives teh french population as 60.6 million. Victoria's population is just on 5 million and we have a road toll of 345.

    That makes the Victorian road toll 20% worse than the french, per capita.

    Differences that might cause this:

    130 kph limit vs 100??
    the french drink more at lunchtime and have fewer booze buses (if any) ??

    there are more 5-star NCAP renaults in France than in Vic...
    Firstly there are more holes in that logic than there are in the logic of speed cameras.

    The most obvious ones would be -

    How many VEHICLES per capita are there in France?

    I seem to remember reading (could be wrong) that Australia has more vehicles (drivers) per capita than any other country in the world (except the good old U.S of A)

    Alot of their driving is done in far more congested traffic (lower speeds) than Australia...

    BTW - Last time I looked/booked, our freeway speed limit was 110kph


    *EDIT* -

    France has 483 passenger vehicles per 1000 capita...
    Australia has 606 per 1000

    That works out to:
    29,688,000 vehicles in France
    3,030,000 vehicle in Victoria

    29,688,000
    /3500 deaths
    =8482

    3,030,000
    /345 deaths
    =8782

    Not sure on my math... (not long woke up so someone with no life (like me) might confirm) but I think it works out to about:

    1 death per 8482 passenger vehicles in France
    1 death per 8782 passenger vehilces in Victoria...

    This is of course assuming that the French figure includes things such as pedestrian fatalities etc...
    Last edited by mistareno; 17th November 2005 at 04:37 PM.

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    If you want proper figures, visit the International Road Traffic and Accident Database

    Here is a good chart

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinJ
    there are more 5-star NCAP renaults in France than in Vic...
    Based on the chart above, given that Sweden has the lowest road toll per capita in the world, I hereby declare we should all drive Volvos

    More seriously, these 2003 death per capita figures are interesting.

    Greece - 19.3 deaths per 100,000
    France - 10.2 deaths per 100,000
    Australia - 8.2 deaths per 100,000
    Sweden - 5.9 deaths per 100,000

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    As a crude generalisation, I'd say from those figures that drivers who reguarly have icy roads to deal with are far more cautious than than most others and probably have far better car control skills...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pug307
    Greece - 19.3 deaths per 100,000
    France - 10.2 deaths per 100,000
    Australia - 8.2 deaths per 100,000
    Sweden - 5.9 deaths per 100,000
    So bearing in mind that Sweden only has 455 vehicles per 1000 people and
    Australia has 606 vehicles per 1000 people...

    That means that Australia has 8.2 deaths per 60000 vehicles
    and Sweden has 5.9 deaths per 45,500 vehicles...

    Pretty damn close in the scheme of things really...

    BTW - I wonder who travels more k's a year

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    There's an argument here as to whether it should be calculated on population, or number of cars, but neither of these tell the full story. Surely it should be calculated per kilometre travelled? Or even per licence holder?
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    I'd say from those figures that drivers who reguarly have icy roads to deal with are far more cautious than than most others and probably have far better car control skills...
    Or.... due to conditions they drive alot less than we do and at lower average speeds. Both of course would have a huge impact on road deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poo-Go
    There's an argument here as to whether it should be calculated on population, or number of cars, but neither of these tell the full story. Surely it should be calculated per kilometre travelled? Or even per licence holder?
    I reckon that per kilometer travelled would be the fairest way...

    FWIW - that would mean Australia would probably have one of the best (if not THE best) road toll in the world...

    I mean, let's get serious, how far can you possibly drive in Holland for example? If you can invade it in a day and have your soilders sipping latte's that night how many K's can you drive before you either a:hit water or b:cross a border

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno
    As a crude generalisation, I'd say from those figures that drivers who reguarly have icy roads to deal with are far more cautious than than most others and probably have far better car control skills...
    One of the components of Swedish driver training is actually on a skid circuit and it also includes switching ABS off sometimes

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    Quote Originally Posted by mantra
    Or.... due to conditions they drive alot less than we do and at lower average speeds. Both of course would have a huge impact on road deaths.
    Swedes drive a lot - their max speed limit is no lower than Australia's - in fact they want to raise it. On some dual carriageways, I'd say their average speeds are higher.

    Sweden's a big country within Europe - you want to do long road trips, no problem.

    To be honest, I think Swedish drivers in general are better than Australian drivers. There's less aggression on the roads, people drive with civility and I think drivers are better trained to begin with.

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    Another small? factor to consider is that France is a relatively large country
    with its 60 million spread across a number of large towns and cities while
    Victoria has 95% of its population in one city.

    Any accident stats would need to be sorted into a per capita then
    geographically skewed to make allowances for the city to country
    ratios.

    Comparing any figures like these is very difficult and needs to be taken
    with a grain of salt.

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    Sweden has for many years been working on "Vision Zero" which includes fixing road issues. They find a road where someone dies, and ... they fix the road. And then they find all similar issues, and they fix those as well.

    http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/repor...isionzero.html

    I don't know how much down the path of Vision Zero would be palatable here, but I do think the bit about fixing the roads an designing safer roads is missed completely here.

    Beyond limited blackspot funding, I don't see this happening in Australia. The roads I drive on are appalling in quality and so many places for bad things to happen, like the primary school next to one of Melbourne's busiest suburban roads with no service lane and beyond a 40 km/h speed limit, nothing to stop the kids from entering the road.

    However, there's plenty of money to install new "safety" cameras on straight, safe enough roads I've driving at all hours and all times like the Westgate freeway. I've never seen a fatal accident on there or heard of one. Yes, I see bingles daily - but they're all low speed (0-20 km/h) bumper smashers during peak hours. There must be at least 100,000 people pass under those cameras daily though. Bastards.

    Until we have a policy which addresses the trilogy:

    * Driver education - not shock tactics (although, I can honestly tell you Richard I do not want your job in a million years)

    * Better roads - let's get those pedestrians and kids separated from traffic, let's make it safer

    * Safer cars - let's get junks off the road and keep the older nice cars for those special times like club runs

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    Australians don't strive for perfection at anything, including driving.
    We have a "lowest common denominator" kind of society, where excellence at anything is viewed with suspicion, and logical thought & discussion is looked upon as Highbrow W**k. cf. Germany. I think it's the Anglo Irish dregs most of us are descended from.
    Sounds like this ought to be moved to "THE POND"
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    1000+ Posts edgedweller's Avatar
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    Mike,

    it's just you, go on, volunteer that post as a thread starter over in toad.

    ed ge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren25
    Australians don't strive for perfection at anything, including driving.
    We have a "lowest common denominator" kind of society, where excellence at anything is viewed with suspicion, and logical thought & discussion is looked upon as Highbrow W**k. cf. Germany. I think it's the Anglo Irish dregs most of us are descended from.
    Sounds like this ought to be moved to "THE POND"
    Cheers
    MIke

    Have to agree with you Mike. I often call Australia an "LCD society".
    Sad really, and as we follow the great American example
    the LCD will only get lower

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    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    as we follow the great American example
    the LCD will only get lower
    How can we (the Oz public) elect an even dumber PM!
    Cheers Simon
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit
    How can we (the Oz public) elect an even dumber PM!

    Welll, we could keep electing him.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by biologist
    Welll, we could keep electing him.....

    He and his US mentor are well matched.

    Did I ever tell you what a nice guy Paul Keating really is?

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    This started out as a nice informative thread too, Colin. Oh well. It was nice to meet you the other day too BTW.

    Trucks are involved in a disproportionate number of accidents in Australia. And Freight travel is bigger here since petrol is obviously only a fraction of the price here compared to what it is in Europe. Given that trucks typically travell incredible distances (anyone see 'forensic investigators' last week?), this could also alter the outcome.

    Its all well and good to want great roads everywhere. But Australia is simply too big. Wealthy country though it is, its not always viable to rebuild fancy roads everywhere. Or, more likely, its a political state Vs federal issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergetov
    Trucks are involved in a disproportionate number of accidents in Australia. And Freight travel is bigger here since petrol is obviously only a fraction of the price here compared to what it is in Europe.
    Erm, well how do the Euros get their freight around - it's not all on trains!

    I'd be interested to see any figures to support the claim that freight travel is bigger here than Europe, because anyone's who's driven on the major routes on the continent would most likely attest that truck traffic is far more significant than it is here. Driving down major Victorian highways, you'd get the impression that there were next to no trucks here compared to a major Autobahn or Autostrada.

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    Default Fatalities are the poorest statistic to use

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergetov
    This started out as a nice informative thread too, Colin. Oh well. It was nice to meet you the other day too BTW.

    Trucks are involved in a disproportionate number of accidents in Australia. And Freight travel is bigger here since petrol is obviously only a fraction of the price here compared to what it is in Europe. Given that trucks typically travell incredible distances (anyone see 'forensic investigators' last week?), this could also alter the outcome.

    Its all well and good to want great roads everywhere. But Australia is simply too big. Wealthy country though it is, its not always viable to rebuild fancy roads everywhere. Or, more likely, its a political state Vs federal issue.
    Tim I don't know where you got that information about the trucks, there have been changes in the mix of traffic and the loose term truck may cover delivery vans, utilities. I spent a good few years researching Traffic Statistics trying to reduce traffic collisions - Large trucks generally have an extremely good record with some exceptions - long haul trucks and fatigue and many new policing teqhniques and technology have been introduced to reduce the incidence of pill popping cowboys and log book swapping/forging operators. Most legitimate firms and operators do not want the dodgy operators on the road, unions and representatives strive to improve this industry.

    What I did find in my research was that fatalities provided a poor base to analyse collision causes - however collisions resulting in serious injury tend to give a better statistical base, but you must factor in extreme weather conditions to pin point road anomalies that may contribute to collisions.

    And even then when you pinpoint a trouble spot the only real way to evaluate what factors are involved, is to put that stretch of road under video surveillance - is it speeding drivers - angle of sun aspect - changing of lanes-turning vehicles -braking vehicles - swerving vehicles - mix of speeds - pattern of traffic movements that contribute to or cause the ultimate incident.

    Unfortunately road authorities are reluctant to allow trouble spot video camera monitoring, something I found quite puzzling, until I realised they were worried about incurring an element of liability for faulty road planning - traffic light placement- poor curbing- line marking - road signage - sight distractions road exits etc. placement.

    I think that you will find that Swedish road planners try to idiot proof their road designs and are required to take into account the actions of the poorest drivers (Volvo ? ) and keep them alive when they make mistakes ie no trees near road, no poles on corners, soft trap runoffs - this was disclosed at a Traffic Conference at Preston a few years ago and of course was not taken up by our road planners as too expensive and impracticable.

    Another thing do you count fatalities as one, ie, the driver or the four passengers that died with them. Also often speed has no correlation with a death, one driver will die at 5kph if not wearing a seatbelt and the angle is just so, and another will survive a high speed crash because he is sozzled (relaxed) and landed outside his vehicle at a survivable angle, another will die because a structure he hit penetrated the vehicle and skewered him.

    These are some, of the reasons that I beleive, the current Road Safety speed Camera policy is "fatally" Flawed, promoted solely as a palatable way of raising revenue - i.e. the public wants to see a reduction of the road toll so some will accept a flawed program in the hope that it will bring results.

    Speed cameras when operated fairly by police and I emphasise fairly (with reasonable flexibility) the cameras did initially provide a more orderly speed mix and a temporary reduction in consequential injuries- the move to private operators and proliferation of sites and a realisation that cameras are set to catch mainly those that drift slightly over varying speed limits, rather than, the high speed offenders the public imagine they will curb, has lead to a contempt, disregard and a rise in speed collisions.

    A realisation that speed cameras can't be everywhere, can't chase and intercept, the increasing use of false or concealed plates, has lead to a shift in operations back to patrolling trouble spots with real police patrols to try and reduce the statistical rate of collisions (and of course save face for the present government who want to maintain the road safety fallacy of the speed cameras) i.e. Hightened Police presence reduces injury collisions but result attributed trumpeted!! to the use of life saving "safety speed cameras"

    Of course in gridlocked Melbourne, frustration and traffic densisty will see a rise in minor traffic collisions, bumps and road rage, and your "truck" driver will figure in this at a proportionate rate.

    After all, spending revenue for either improved public transport transport or relief for frustrated motorists are promises to be held for election years and then quietly shelved

    So there are many issues to be considered when evaluating road statistics!
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 19th November 2005 at 01:19 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego

    Of course in gridlocked Melbourne, frustration and traffic densisty will see a rise in minor traffic collisions, bumps and road rage, and your "truck" driver will figure in this at a proportionate rate.
    Sorry to quote from my own post, but the article in todays Sunday Sun on page 29 headed Accident Black Spots - Lonsdale Street (inner Melbourne) named our worse crash site! Just nicely fits my assessment in my previous post - It goes on to say:

    Quote ["Bruce Corben, of Monash University's Accident Research Centre, said the results were not surprising, "it is to be expected because in those areas the volumes are high and some are conjested, complex traffic environments"] end quote.

    Unfortunately, the only part of the report our Victorian Government will leap upon is his no cost easy solution of cutting the speed limit on some suburban streets which might help the number and severity of crashes.

    For a Government that has had an almost indecent obsession in reaping millions of revenue dollars from motorists (GST return on petrol sales, registration and licence fees, duty charges,increased fines and proliferation of revenue raising safety cameras,incomprehensible speed limit changes, and fees) and little or no return in improvement of road systems with direct funding to reduce congestion/frustration. This will be a chance to bring in draconian speed limits "in the interest of road safety and reduction of crashes" and no money spent of course!!

    Polish off the red flags (employment opportunity) to be carried in front of motor cars at 4 kph!! at your shopping centre!! Hmmmnnn Road rage between flag carriers??

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    Well Justin, I'll have to find some evidence for you.

    I'm pretty sure Australia has the highest use of road freight anywhere in the world, but I'll have to look into it.

    I have plenty of time, since your going to admire China's air pollution.

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