Hard as Hell R12 Springs
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    Default Hard as Hell R12 Springs

    Hi Froggers

    Somewhere previously in this forum there has been a thread which dealt with spring rates to suit an R12 sprint/autokhana/hillclimb/track car and I recall rates of 200 lbs being recommended for front and rear.

    Currently I run 17 Gordini sway bars with cut down 17G springs in the front and lowered K-Mac wagon springs in the rear. The car sits at a nice height with lower wishbones being virtually horizontal at rest. However, the suspension is still too soft.

    My attempts to get stiffer springs made here in Perth are hampered by lack of data and specifications. There is enthusiasm to make something to match a 'sample', but that's what I can't provide.

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    Has anyone successfully bought/ordered comp springs 'over the counter' from someone they could recommend? The perils of distance ....


    Cheers
    Keith
    1976 12 Gordini Faker
    WA's only 12 in regular club comp

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Covert's Avatar
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    Hello Virage Racer

    On my Renault 15 I Have "koni" shocks and king springs custom made to work with each other, the results have been fantastic.... the car handles well, takes the rough roads in it's stride but in corners is like it's on rails.

    I had the work done by Top Performance suspension, now this was about 10 years ago but to today it's been perfect. The guy I dealt with was Ric Kemp and he knows his stuff, I would give them a ring al least and see what is possible. As I had the koni's he just asked about the car and it's handling, what i wanted it to drive like, he made up the springs and tuned the shocks to work together. He has alot of motorsport knowledge and if you think about it all, it's all about measurements, rates, rebound, maths and good old experience.

    The good side was the springs are half the height of a uncompressed renault spring but twice a thick in the coil.... so it was easy to put in and i have shocks height adjustable so I can raise or lower the front to suit on the shock, not but cutting a spring which is no good.

    Hope this is of some help...... I know perth is a long way but it's nothing a phone or the internet can't fix......

    http://www.toperformance.com.au
    No. 2 Trade Place
    Vermont, 3133
    Victoria, Australia

    Phone: (03) 9873 1722
    Facsimilie: (03) 9874 2200
    Last edited by Covert; 7th November 2005 at 06:59 PM.

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virage Racer
    Hi Froggers

    Somewhere previously in this forum there has been a thread which dealt with spring rates to suit an R12 sprint/autokhana/hillclimb/track car and I recall rates of 200 lbs being recommended for front and rear.

    Currently I run 17 Gordini sway bars with cut down 17G springs in the front and lowered K-Mac wagon springs in the rear. The car sits at a nice height with lower wishbones being virtually horizontal at rest. However, the suspension is still too soft.

    My attempts to get stiffer springs made here in Perth are hampered by lack of data and specifications. There is enthusiasm to make something to match a 'sample', but that's what I can't provide.

    Has anyone successfully bought/ordered comp springs 'over the counter' from someone they could recommend? The perils of distance ....


    Cheers
    My advice would be to take a leaf out of Stuey's book, remove a spring and take it to a supplier of springs then check out what might fit, spring rates etc.

    If I recall Stuey ended up with heavy duty pathfinder springs on his legendary faux limestone hauling 12 wagon.

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

  4. #4
    Tadpole
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    I have just been speaking with my father who raced an R12 here in Canberra for years on dirt short circuit tracks. His sollution was a little different. He added a second pair of heavy duty gas shocks which were attatched at the bottom balljoint tilting backwards and joining up to a bracket he made up and welded to the body section. (not sure excatly where but he said he could show me). The only thing he said he would do differently would be to make the top bracket adjustable.
    He tilted the second shocks backward so as to stop the driveshafts from moving. The reason for adding adjustment to the top bracket is so you have a bit of control over how hard the ride is. He had a problem of braking driveshafts which he believes would be sorted by being adjustable.
    Not sure if this helps but thought i'd give my worth anyway.

    Cheers
    Noddy jnr

  5. #5
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    mistareno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virage Racer
    Currently I run 17 Gordini sway bars with cut down 17G springs in the front and lowered K-Mac wagon springs in the rear. The car sits at a nice height with lower wishbones being virtually horizontal at rest. However, the suspension is still too soft.
    In what way does it feel to soft?

    If it feels floaty, I'd say it is probably because the dampers can no longer control the firmer spring rate...

    If you go firmer it will just magnify the problem...

    Covert's 17 uses adjustable koni's to rectify that problem...

    Cutting springs is not a flash idea as it tends to place all the spring load through a very small surface area of the spring saddle or body (which can lead to cracking). This is why the top coil is flattened off to sit in the saddle...

    FWIW, a standard Fuego runs 175lb (as tested by the spring manufacturer) springs and feels alot flatter on the road than a 12 or 17...

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    More info ...

    Car is also fitted with Konis which have been re-valved for motorsport work.

    Even with big swaybars there is too much body roll and front-to-rear, rear-to-front body pitching under brakes and acceleration - fine for road but needs to be tighter for track.

    Cheers
    Keith
    1976 12 Gordini Faker
    WA's only 12 in regular club comp

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I think std 12 rears are 50Lbs /inch. I had 200Lbs /inch in the rear of my 15 that I used for club motorsport. Custom made by Kings on the Gold Coast. The wire diameter was 16mm, but don't remember any other details.The fronts also used 16mm wire.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BogMaster
    If I recall Stuey ended up with heavy duty pathfinder springs on his legendary faux limestone hauling 12 wagon.
    Indeed. I once carried a whole 1:1 scale Egyptian pyramid in the back, and the springs didn't sag at all, until the camel jumped in.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    I think std 12 rears are 50Lbs /inch. I had 200Lbs /inch in the rear of my 15 that I used for club motorsport. Custom made by Kings on the Gold Coast. The wire diameter was 16mm, but don't remember any other details.The fronts also used 16mm wire.
    Thanks Alan - 16mm wire diameter sounds about right to me - it's just a question of the number of coils and free length.

    I kind of suspect 160-180lbs might be better in the front so it actually wants to steer.
    Keith
    1976 12 Gordini Faker
    WA's only 12 in regular club comp

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger!
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    ever considered coilovers?

    i looked at this as an option in my 12, but alas funding and motivation have kept it as a fast road car, not a race car.

    just a thought

  11. #11
    Tadpole
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    Helloo,

    Do a coilover style conversion to work with 2.5inch springs. These can be obtained in a variety of lengths/spring rates and give you the option of adjustable ride height. You can get a threaded sleeve with nuts to fit perfectly on an R17 style koni. Only fiddly bit is the top locator fot the spring.

    We had some springs made by Kings on the Gold Coast for the rear.
    Most important on the rear is the angle of the rear trailing arms relative to the mounts. The rear axle steers with body roll and pitch. You can use this to your advantage.
    As for spring rates, we are keeping a bit quiet on what we run, suffice to say that super hard does not equate to faster times.
    Also worth the effort is fitting a second standard wagon rear anti-roll bar piggy backed with you existing G bar.
    This will help keep the inside front wheel on the ground.

    Brant

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Virage Racer's Avatar
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    Never even thought of coilovers - I presume threaded tube is welded to shock casing ...

    Cheers
    Keith
    1976 12 Gordini Faker
    WA's only 12 in regular club comp

  13. #13
    Tadpole
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    Yep that is correct.
    It will only work easily on the front, the rear will need custom springs.
    Simply cut the spring seat off the shock and weld the tube on the existing shock
    You will need to turn a top seat to keep the spring in the centre of the tower.
    Brant

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