Talking about Gearboxes...
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  1. #1
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Talking about Gearboxes...

    Im sure its been talked about before but i wanna refresh my memory...

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    What sort of power is a Fuego gearbox good for? would it last if its got 150-160kw going through it (and about 270 to 300 nm of torque)?

    Cheers

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    KW or HP ?

    cheers!
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

  3. #3
    rek
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    1000+ Posts rek's Avatar
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    I thought gearbox strength was rated on their ability to withstand high torque, and not necessarily high power.

    Or am I getting confused with differentials, or some other driveline component?
    Peter
    2008 Saab 9-3 1.9 TiD Sportcombi
    2011 Volvo C30 DRIVe 1.6D

  4. #4
    1000+ Posts REN TIN TIN's Avatar
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    It's probably right about the torque being more important than power.
    I'm just curious as to what you going to fit in a Fuego to got 150 - 160kw. That's around the same power as the Commodore/ Falcon/ Magna sixes.

    cheers!
    "I cannot help but notice that there is no problem between us that cannot be solved by your departure. Mark Twain"

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Well,
    150-160kw- how about a fuego turbo motor with a roller bearing turbo, large intercooler, 3"mandrel bent exhaust, blow-through carburettor from a Lancia Delta Turbo, and if you've got $$$$$ a new electronic engine management system.

    My 18 turbo (same engine) makes around 160hp with larger exhaust and slightly more boost, so with some money thrown at it- as above- then 150-160kw is entirely plausible.

    Why the original question Renault turbo? Are you after a turbo motor- I have one sitting around if you are interested.....

    Ben

  6. #6
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Yeah your on the right track Ben.

    Ive been toying with the idea for a while. The thing is, i want something with a bit more oompf than the Fuego 1.6 motor and i think i have found just the right thing...the Renault J7R.

    I wont bore people here with the details but ive been studying the idea and i think this engine will fit very nicely indeed in a Fuego as it is the J6R's Grandson which has been Turboed/Injected. 128kw/270 nm stock......

    I just wanna know if the re-synchroed Fuego box in my garage will be any good for it.

    Ben - Is there a trading post in New Zealand? I just cant find a second hand paper equivalent to our trading post (in Oz) on the net. Should there be one, could you post up any details of the address or website?

    Thanks mate

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    I'd say with that amount of HP, you're gonna need to think about fitting a UN1 or 395 type gearbox.

    Unfortunately they are as rare as hen's teeth in Australia - especially the UN1 (4 spider gear dif) which would be ideal for all that power.

    These were fitted to R25 V6 and V6 Turbo, so maybe there are some to be found in New Zealand?

    They are also a BIG box - line an NG3 (Feugo) box up next to them and they look about 50% bigger!
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  8. #8
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Are those boxes 5 speed?

    Well J7R's arent found here in Oz either so i'd have to find both overseas. Would these boxes be compatible with the Fuego?

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Oh yes, they are 5 speed alright. They are also used in the Lotus Esprit.

    There may be some difficulties mating to a Fuego engine, but - someone may be able to confirm this - an Manual R25 4Cyl (GTX) bellhousing should mate to a UN1 transmission.

    Thats a big assumption on my part! Hopefully someone can confirm that. I believe Manual R25 GTX did have UN1/395 transmissions, possibly without the 4 spider gear dif
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  10. #10
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    renaulturbo, bore us with the details!

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  11. #11
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    But do you think these bigger gearboxes would fit under a Fuego?

    What sort of power/torque has been put through a Fuego box by anyone?

    I'd like to hear from that V6 Fuego that was built some time ago....David?

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    No idea. Anything can be made to fit with a big enough hammer I suppose.

    Reminds me of the old "fit a 5 speed into a R12" problems!
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Ok renault-turbo, what is a J6R then? What's it out of? Surely you'd be better off putting in a motor that they originally came out with either a hot 2litre or- the turbo 1600 for example. Or in OZ is it any motor if different from original requires ( a lot of!?? )certification by an engineer? evil

    As for a 2nd hand paper- try trade&exchange.co.nz or t&e.co.nz. It's one of those free to advertise papers - should be what you are after.

    I wouldn't say that the NG1 boxes in most fuegos/r18's are anything to write home about, but then as long as you aren't stupid with it- i.e burnouts/wheelies etc most things hold together quite well. At least that's what I have found anyway.

    Parts for fuegos/r18's are ridiculously cheap over here at the moment- in another year or so there won't be any on the roads I don't reckon, rust and relatively low values- jap imports a dime a dozen -and hard to get info/parts mean people are flagging them. Could be the time to pick all the bits and pieces up you need for a 'conversion'. Any way- come on now- more about this different motor.... Even R25's going for $1500- quite tidy too, although the electrics put me off those. Besides I'm not into family cars- yet anyhow! wink

    Ben

  14. #14
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    J6R is the 2 litre atmo engine that came in all Fuego's imported to Australia. I say its same as J7R except for carbie vs turbo/injection of J7R. But im not sure of what internals they have in common. I predict that the J7R, being a turbo motor should have a stronger bottom end than the atmo J6R (dont know for sure) plus obviously compression for J7R has been reduced somehow.

    Ive asked Vic-roads about Engineer's. They reffered me to call a list of their Engineers for advice. I always thought you only needed an Engineer's if you were planning an increase of 10% of the original cubic capacity of the stock engine....in this case i wouldnt need one as there's no change in cc. But i would have to call just in case. That way i thought the limit to bore/stroke an engine of say 1400cc would be to 1540cc, after which an Engineer's is needed(?)

    In the worst case, there's always bodgy Engineer's reports to be had or i could simply get my engine number stamped on to the J7R evil .

    All i know i wont be forking out big bucks for beaurocratic bull****!! (Rules Rules Rules !!! )

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    In QLD the rules are mostly simple for conversions. If the car weighs 1000kg you multiply this by 3 to bring you to the capacity in CCs (3000cc) in an atmo engine. With turbos the multiple factor is 2.5. (2500cc) You can of course go bigger, but with many more hassles when it isn't a Holden or a Ford. You do still have to get it checked by a modification certified mechanic , as well as upgrading brakes and suspension with checks on those as well. Also if the original block is used, they don't seem to care that you have more than doubled your HP by the use of a 4 valve head. (My BMW 2002) I thought the various bodies were getting together to try to have one blanket ruling for all Aus. on light vehicle mods.
    Alan.
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  16. #16
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    I love those 2002's. I once saw a 2002 turbo for $26,000 in unique cars. He reckoned it was good for 400bhp+!!!!! eek!

    What type is yours Alan? Was it only the turbo that came out with '2002' written reversed on the front bumper so that you would be warned of what was approaching you in the rear-vision mirror?

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    renaulturbo,
    My 2002 is a 73 Tii (kugelfischer injection)with the round tail lights. There were only 234 RHD round tail light Tiis built. Mine is now fitted with an ex 2L super tourer M3 type(4 cyl) motor with a Motec M4 Pro computer and close-ratio 5 speed and numerous ratio LSDs. The rest of it is a bit over the top, and hopefully I will finish it over the next couple of months. The motor has 276 hp on the engine dyno, but if you keep running it at 9000rpm, rebuild it every 2000 klm.
    The turbos were all orignally LHD bar 2, and all had square tail lights as the were built 74 onwards. BMW got rid of the big decals fairly early on. I would rather not advertise my arrival.
    Alan.
    '56 Renault 4CV (16TS Power)
    '62 Renault Dauphine Gordini
    '82 Renault Fuego GTX
    '89 Renault Alpine GTA V6 Turbo
    '02 and '03 Renault Clios 1.4L
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  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! markm's Avatar
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    Europa:
    Oh yes, they are 5 speed alright. They are also used in the Lotus Esprit.

    There may be some difficulties mating to a Fuego engine, but - someone may be able to confirm this - an Manual R25 4Cyl (GTX) bellhousing should mate to a UN1 transmission.

    Thats a big assumption on my part! Hopefully someone can confirm that. I believe Manual R25 GTX did have UN1/395 transmissions, possibly without the 4 spider gear dif
    I think the Esprit gearbox was out of a Citroen SM which was a reworked DS 5 Speed box but maybe they used a Renault box as well
    Mark McKibbin

  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    Early Esprit used Citroen, they changed to Renault later on. I've read the Citroen boxes were a little fragile, especially as power output went up...
    '05 Pearl Black Mégane 5-Door LXR(Daily Driver), '75 Trak Yellow R16TSA (Parts Car), '74 Midnight Blue R17TS (Rebuilding), '73 457 Blue R17TL (Parts Car), '72 Alpine White R16TL (Retired), '69 Sunburst Brown R16TS (Awaiting Rebuild), '68 "Appliance White" Europa (Stored)

  20. #20
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    renaultturbo, the 2002 turbo actually had 'turbo' backwards on the spoiler. They 'only' put out 170bhp stock. Still, I'd love a stock one! Apparently there was a public outcry at the sticker because of the effect of the fuel crisis on the German public's opinions of performance cars.

    Stuey


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  21. #21
    Banned Haakon's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by renaulturbo:
    [QB]J6R is the 2 litre atmo engine that came in all Fuego's imported to Australia. I say its same as J7R except for carbie vs turbo/injection of J7R. But im not sure of what internals they have in common. I predict that the J7R, being a turbo motor should have a stronger bottom end than the atmo J6R (dont know for sure) plus obviously compression for J7R has been reduced somehow.

    J6R - 2.0 Fuego Oz spec, J7T R21 & R25 unleaded 2.2 Renix injection (V. nice) and the juicy one J7R 2.0 as fitted to R21 Turbo (especially yummy in Quadra format). All 2.0's are the same bottom end - just modified head for lower compression for turbo. 2.2 simply use a longer throw crank.
    The best engine is to use the J7T 2.2 botton end, J7R turbo system, and the 12 valve head fitted to R21 TXI. Stupidly fast in a Fuego!!!! Might have to fit the R21 Quadra driveline to get the power down!!

    Cant remember the link, but I've seen pics of a black Fuego in Germany with the J7R turbo fitted. Solves gearbox problem by fitting R21 Turbo gearbox - easy. If you have friends in Europe willing to send you an R21 turbo engine and gearbox, I'll beating on your door fot contacts!!

  22. #22
    Banned Haakon's Avatar
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    Oops, J7R is not the Turbo motor, its the 2.0 Renix injected one, fitted to series 1 R21, R25 gts, and probably Espace. Havent got my R21 manual with me, so not suer what Turbo designation is. The bloch on all versions is the same, so any one should be interchangeble with another - physically at least. Hooking up all the turbo and EFI hardware will be the fun bit!! R21 Turbo gearbox is essentially the same as other 5 speeds fitted behind the J series engines. Minor differences in strength i suspect. The Turbo in the R21 also uses a hydralic clutch to operate what must be a much higher clamp pressure.

    Wonderful engine the J series - bullet proof. A testament to its strength is the J8S diesel - yep, a diesel head and pistons? on the same block. Explains all the ribbing and reinforcing on the block I guess.

  23. #23
    Banned Haakon's Avatar
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    Found it

    <a href="http://home.t-online.de/home/Dieter.wedershoven/gallery9.htm" target="_blank">http://home.t-online.de/home/Dieter.wedershoven/gallery9.htm</a>

    Yummy and inspiring. Check out the convertibles on this site.

  24. #24
    Banned renaulturbo's Avatar
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    Mad site! So it has been done before...geees, that 2L turbo looks the part under a Fuego bonnet. I plan to steal his 'fastest Fuego in the world' title tongue tongue wink

    The turbo motor is designated J7R/752 or J7R/754 if i can remember correctly.

    Thanks for the 12v head information. Thats one thing i hadnt found out, i had heard of a 12v head existing but i didnt know what model came out with it. I predict this head would have to be modified (for the compression) to run a turbo (?) Do you know what compression the 2.2 lire TXI has?

    So how sure are you that internals (pistons, connecting rods, crank and bearings) are the same? I ask 'cos my piston rings are still goin strong (my engine uses no oil) so maybe i could build everything on my block.

    What do you mean by throw crank? Isnt the 2.2 litre just a stroked 2 litre?

    Cheers mate

  25. #25
    Banned Haakon's Avatar
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    R21 TXi is actually a 2.0 (140 BHP in standard form - as opposed to 120 BHP for 8 valve 2.0. 2.2 built for torque - around 125-130 BHP). Built in phase two R21 ( 1990 - 1993 i think). Turbo motor uses different pistons, gudgeon pins pivoting on the rod rather than the piston - or is it the other way around? 2.2 simply uses a longer throw crank with matching shorter con rods to stroke the engine - same bore.
    Have a look at <a href="http://www.renault21turbo.com/" target="_blank">http://www.renault21turbo.com/</a>

    These guys have all you want to know re. J series turbo engine. Among this crowd, the 12 valve turbo 2.2 creation is the one to have. (A great little bit of footage of a R21 turbo Quadra doing donuts on a frozen lake!!)

    But I can't see any reson why you cant do it all with aussie bits - get J7T 2.2 Renix injected from a series 2 R21 or unleaded R25 and strap a Garret and an intercooler on it (easy with EFI)- essentially what renault did. And there are plenty of transmission specialist who can beef up the diff on a fuego gearbox. Fuego bellhousing has the provision for a hydralic clutch slave to be mounted for the beefed up clutch you will need. Been thinking about it myself for a while!!

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