Restoring an R12... Engine choice?
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Default Restoring an R12... Engine choice?

    Hi,
    I'm restoring a 1972 Renault 12 at the moment and Iv'e gotten to the stage to pick the powerplant. Ive been toying with a few ideas, and have come here to ask the opoinion of some of you guys:
    1: Supercharged 1289cc:
    I would run the supercharger of the Toyota MR2 or corolla 4AGZE engines and put around 6-7psi into the R12. Should intercooling be necessary (which I don't think it is), i would run a small top mount intercooler fed by a gordini type bonnet scoop. This combo should, fingers crossed, net around 100hp at the crank.
    2: Renault 16TS 1500 crossflow:
    This conversion seems relativley straightforward with a decent increase in power. I'd be running the standard 4 speed R12 gearbox with a renault 18 input shaft and bellhousing. The only other problem I would have is I would need to run a rernault 17 sump or custom fabricate one. Any ideas on the performance times you could expect out of a 12 with a 16ts engine?
    3: Renault 18GTS 1600:
    This seems to be a rare conversion, but the upsides I can see is that I could use the 18 sump and wouldn't need a new bellhousing or input shaft to bolt it to the 4 speed R12 box. The other upside is that the engine runs a relativley low compression with 18GTS pistons and sleeves (suitable for supercharging somewhere down the track) but can aso take the 16TX pistons and sleeves for a good NA build up. What is the difference in power between the 16 engine and the 18? What performance could I reasonably be expecting?
    4: Renault 16TS/18GTS hybrid:
    Renault 18 block, 16TS head, cam and pushrods to create a cross flow 1600. The sump will be a perfect fit into the R12 (unlike 16ts), the engine will have more cc than a 16TS and could take 16TX high compression pistons and sleeves for good NA power. With a standard 16TS cam and single downdraught carbie, I'd say 100-110hp would be easily acheivable. Any ideas?

    At the moment I'm leaning towards the blown 1300, simply because it's the easiest, cheapest and the least likley for anything to go wrong. The only thing i'm wondering is whether I'll be able to get enough power out of it and still be reliable. What would you guys suggest I do? If there is anything you can think of that I haven't put as an option here, please tell me.

    Look forward to your ideas,
    Toby

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    At the moment I'm leaning towards the blown 1300, simply because it's the easiest, cheapest and the least likley for anything to go wrong. The only thing i'm wondering is whether I'll be able to get enough power out of it and still be reliable. What would you guys suggest I do? If there is anything you can think of that I haven't put as an option here, please tell me.

    Look forward to your ideas,
    Toby[/QUOTE]

    Easiest? Cheapest? You have to be dreaming buddy. The easiest and cheapest would be the 17/15 transplant. Just drops in with virtually no mods needed. It may be that you will need to do a bit of rewiring because of the engine layout but nothing really expensive. The extra braking from the vented discs would be good..they just bolt on. The 15/17 have a similar floor pan to the 12. The motors have the front mount as well (unlike the 16). If you can find a suitable 15/17 engine it will be cheaper than a supercharger, easier to fit and will give you some extra oomph. Adding the 17 sway bar will also help the handling.

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12
    Hi,
    I'm restoring a 1972 Renault 12 at the moment and Iv'e gotten to the stage to pick the powerplant. Ive been toying with a few ideas, and have come here to ask the opoinion of some of you guys:
    1: Supercharged 1289cc:
    I would run the supercharger of the Toyota MR2 or corolla 4AGZE engines and put around 6-7psi into the R12. Should intercooling be necessary (which I don't think it is), i would run a small top mount intercooler fed by a gordini type bonnet scoop. This combo should, fingers crossed, net around 100hp at the crank.
    2: Renault 16TS 1500 crossflow:
    This conversion seems relativley straightforward with a decent increase in power. I'd be running the standard 4 speed R12 gearbox with a renault 18 input shaft and bellhousing. The only other problem I would have is I would need to run a rernault 17 sump or custom fabricate one. Any ideas on the performance times you could expect out of a 12 with a 16ts engine?
    3: Renault 18GTS 1600:
    This seems to be a rare conversion, but the upsides I can see is that I could use the 18 sump and wouldn't need a new bellhousing or input shaft to bolt it to the 4 speed R12 box. The other upside is that the engine runs a relativley low compression with 18GTS pistons and sleeves (suitable for supercharging somewhere down the track) but can aso take the 16TX pistons and sleeves for a good NA build up. What is the difference in power between the 16 engine and the 18? What performance could I reasonably be expecting?
    4: Renault 16TS/18GTS hybrid:
    Renault 18 block, 16TS head, cam and pushrods to create a cross flow 1600. The sump will be a perfect fit into the R12 (unlike 16ts), the engine will have more cc than a 16TS and could take 16TX high compression pistons and sleeves for good NA power. With a standard 16TS cam and single downdraught carbie, I'd say 100-110hp would be easily acheivable. Any ideas?

    At the moment I'm leaning towards the blown 1300, simply because it's the easiest, cheapest and the least likley for anything to go wrong. The only thing i'm wondering is whether I'll be able to get enough power out of it and still be reliable. What would you guys suggest I do? If there is anything you can think of that I haven't put as an option here, please tell me.

    Look forward to your ideas,
    Toby
    You can still pick up the odd cheap R17 for running gear, but many 15/17 fans will want to hang me from the nearest tree for suggesting it...

    The R17 running gear will bolt straight in if you use the 17 gearbox (or for better economy and cruising and lower noise a modified R18 5 speed box can be used).

    There is no reason why the R12 engine won't handle the boost as it handles more than that in its R5 Turbo application (albeit somewhat modified)

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistareno
    You can still pick up the odd cheap R17 for running gear, but many 15/17 fans will want to hang me from the nearest tree for suggesting it...

    The R17 running gear will bolt straight in if you use the 17 gearbox (or for better economy and cruising and lower noise a modified R18 5 speed box can be used).

    There is no reason why the R12 engine won't handle the boost as it handles more than that in its R5 Turbo application (albeit somewhat modified)



    Where abouts would you reccomend looking for R17 running gear? How much would you be looking at? What engine did the 17's run? My apologies for all the questions but I really have little idea about the renault 15 or 17.
    Toby

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    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12
    Where abouts would you reccomend looking for R17 running gear? How much would you be looking at? What engine did the 17's run? My apologies for all the questions but I really have little idea about the renault 15 or 17.
    Toby
    Toby,

    If you do find a 15/17 that is restorable, let me know... dont rip the guts out of it to send it to a likely grave.

    If it isn't restorable let me know anyway, I may be after some bits.

    David.
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    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivid
    Toby,

    If you do find a 15/17 that is restorable, let me know... dont rip the guts out of it to send it to a likely grave.

    If it isn't restorable let me know anyway, I may be after some bits.

    David.
    Thats what i figured... from what I've been reading the 15/17 is a rare car, and very hard to find in Australia. I didn't reallt want to rip one of these to pieces, I was looking for a moreh humane way of getting some more power.
    Toby

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    Tadpole renault 12's Avatar
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    If you found a 17 you may as well restore it instead! Already having 2 12s I think a 15 or 17 would be a welcome change. Much sportier too if you can find one.

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    Fellow Frogger! Jensen's Avatar
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    hey Renault 12,

    How about just getting some good hp out of the 1289 with twin webers cam etc. It's been done a million times with good results? Ask Ross for some specs coz that's what he has in the back of his dauphine. Also saves the small number of 15/17"s getting around.

    If you want something different but more expensive maybe bring in a R18 turbo or R5 Alpine turbo motor from NZ. Great power, and the 5 motor should go in very easily while an 18 would be similar to the 17 conversion.

    Good luck
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    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Sounds like a good idea...
    Just to clarify the issue I waas never considering using a R17 for the engine as I would restore the whole car if I found one and not just take the engine. I'll have to ask Ross about a good 1289, it certainly sounds like an idea. How would one of these modded 1289's go? much harder than a R16ts engine?
    toby

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    Fellow Frogger! Jensen's Avatar
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    i think Ross has a 1397 motor but the same principles will apply, 1289 are thought to rev better and 1397 are known for more torque. A worked 16 motor would easily out preform a smaller sierra block but a worked sierra should go as well or better than a standard 16TS and you won't have dramas changing engine mounts, bell housings etc.

    Jensen
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  11. #11
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault12
    Where abouts would you reccomend looking for R17 running gear? How much would you be looking at? What engine did the 17's run? My apologies for all the questions but I really have little idea about the renault 15 or 17.
    Toby
    You could try www.partslocator.com.au (currently listing 3 wrecks) - (you could try looking Vivid) - alternatively Clive Woodward in Queanbeyan has a 17 he may be willing to part with 02 6297 9078 .

    If you look around you will locate one.

    Last edited by BogMaster; 19th September 2005 at 09:30 PM.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault 12
    If you found a 17 you may as well restore it instead! Already having 2 12s I think a 15 or 17 would be a welcome change. Much sportier too if you can find one.
    Some are just beyond it but have reasonable running gear. Finding bits to get a crusty 15/17 into good order would be incredibly more difficult than doing the same for a 12. At the end of the day unless you have a basically well preserved cosmetically intact 15/17 it is not worth the effort for the value of the end result.

    If you can find a 15/17 that is fundamentally tacky in the body and cosmetics but with OK running gear do not hesitate to wreck it if you want the engine for your 12.
    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

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    Moderator vivid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BogMaster
    You could try www.partslocator.com.au (currently listing 3 wrecks) - (you could try looking Vivid) - alternatively Clive Woodward in Queanbeyan has a 17 he may be willing to part with 02 6297 9078.
    BogMaster I REALLY wish you hadn't shown me that site.

    Quote Originally Posted by BogMaster
    If you can find a 15/17 that is fundamentally tacky in the body and cosmetics but with OK running gear do not hesitate to wreck it if you want the engine for your 12.
    I have to agree, cosmetics are the 'hard to get' bits in most cases of our older froggy cars.

    BogMaster I REALLY wish you hadn't shown me that site!

    David.
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    Hi Toby,
    I might be able to help you out a bit. I have a 17G disc brake rear end and also a 17G sway bar and also a 17TL motor. The heads off the motor and its in bits. I'm not sure of its condition or the pieces that may be missing but I can put you in touch with the previous owner.
    If you were to buy the rear end I'd throw in the motor.
    As an alternative French Connection in Airport West may have a complete 17TL motor or know where to get one (9338 8191).
    PM me if your interested in the bits I have (I have others as well).

    Cheers.... Paul
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    go the blower
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    now speaking from experience (i have spent the past 4-5 years and at least $8-10k on modifying and restoring my 12) the easiest and simplest way to make a 12 go is to do a rebuild to the original engine with some mods. it won't go anywhere near as fast as it would with an sr20 turbo fitted but its a damn sight easier and that extra go aint worth the frustration. that said, if you find a wrecked 17, as long as you get all the mounts and box with it it will bolt straight in with only a little rewiring and some extra radiator hoses.
    the 15 and 17 share the same floor pan as the 12 and hence all mechanical parts are interchangable. if you need any 12 bits i have a whole stack you can take away if you need them, but they are all standard 12 parts. i also have a few overseas contacts for more hard to get parts. i rebushed the entire car for $85.

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    Hi again Toby,
    I've just been around to French Connection and Dave has got multiple 17TL motors. They are complete with all the mounts etc. Give him a buzz if you like and give me a pm when you want to be able to stop the car.
    Have fun
    There is a law against doing more than 100kmh...there's no law on how fast you get to 100kmh!!!

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    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    So Renault12 have you made up your mind yet?
    I can give you the specs from Ross's engine if you are going to go that way. It looks like the 17 is the favourite route.
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    Young enough to do it anyway.

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    Hi Toby Its Rob you called me on the phone if you remember. You should come for a drive to Healsville with me and ill show you an R12 i built for a mate. Blue with R8 1135 sripes, 4 stud hubs, Clio rims, R17 discs, anti sway bar, konis, fitting negative camber brakets to lower wish bones, lowerd 75mm, R17 roll bar, late R18 rear brakes. Pulled out R17 running gear. Reason,too heavy, modified 1289 , cam, head shave, carb mods, seen it pull 9000 and indicate 130 Km in third with 12 box. Now we're fitting R18 box for longer legs, but got to mod box mounts and hump. much better handling with lighter motor stops better too and no slower.
    Last edited by robbie_renault; 27th September 2005 at 01:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robbie_renault
    Hi Toby Its Rob you called me on the phone if you remember. You should come for a drive to Healsville with me and ill show you an R12 i built for a mate. Blue with R8 1135 sripes, 4 stud hubs, Clio rims, R17 discs, anti sway bar, konis, fitting negative camber brakets to lower wish bones, lowerd 75mm, R17 roll bar, late R18 rear brakes. Pulled out R17 running gear. Reason,too heavy, modified 1289 , cam, head shave, carb mods, seen it pull 9000 and indicate 130 Km in third with 12 box. Now we're fitting R18 box for longer legs, but got to mod box mounts and hump. much better handling with lighter motor stops better too and no slower.
    While your at it, a few digital pic's for posting pse.

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    1000+ Posts Europa's Avatar
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    That got me thinking - I wonder how much different the weight is between the alloy R17 motor and the cast block R12 motor. I know it's a big difference when lifting just the blocks themselves... (obviously!)
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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbie_renault
    Hi Toby Its Rob you called me on the phone if you remember. You should come for a drive to Healsville with me and ill show you an R12 i built for a mate. Blue with R8 1135 sripes, 4 stud hubs, Clio rims, R17 discs, anti sway bar, konis, fitting negative camber brakets to lower wish bones, lowerd 75mm, R17 roll bar, late R18 rear brakes. Pulled out R17 running gear. Reason,too heavy, modified 1289 , cam, head shave, carb mods, seen it pull 9000 and indicate 130 Km in third with 12 box. Now we're fitting R18 box for longer legs, but got to mod box mounts and hump. much better handling with lighter motor stops better too and no slower.
    Hi Robbie

    Have you got any pics of this modified 12. Especailly the suspension and gearbox mods

    Regards Col

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    Fellow Frogger! renault12's Avatar
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    Just for interests sake I opted for the 1289. Seems to be going well, but I'm still running it in and so I'll be taking it easy for a bit.
    Toby

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    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    I did weigh them both about 20 years ago and I think the 15/17 motor complete was 15Kg heavier than the 12. 15 Kg is hardly going to worry you given the performance advantages of the 15 motor when modded.

    A 12 motor at 9000 Rpm, "I'd like to see (hear)that".
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan moore
    I did weigh them both about 20 years ago and I think the 15/17 motor complete was 15Kg heavier than the 12. 15 Kg is hardly going to worry you given the performance advantages of the 15 motor when modded.

    A 12 motor at 9000 Rpm, "I'd like to see (hear)that".
    This is what happens when you fit a SAAB turbo to a 15/17 motor and fuel injection. It's a really neat fit.

    This car no longer runs this gear but featured 17 5 speed box, rear discs plus the turbo and efi.

    It was built by Justin Eckersley in Canberra some years ago and was alleged to be capable of accelerating all the way up Black Mountain in 5th.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Restoring an R12... Engine choice?-12turb2.jpg   Restoring an R12... Engine choice?-12turb3.jpg   Restoring an R12... Engine choice?-12turbo.jpg  
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