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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Hot R10 Engine

    Hi Guys.

    A Collier built engine I had been eyeing off, Dave sold before I got there so I need your help to design a new one.

    I have an engine supposedly a 1.4 virage engine (it has the markings 847 706 and 060001954 on the block plate). I want to build up a warm to hot engine for my R10. I plan on using either twin or single 40mm DCOE webers that I already have(depending on recommendations and manifold availability). It will just be a road car not competition.

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    Assuming I use the block; Crank; Pistons etc in it already as a base. What mods do people recommend I do to it and what other parts should I add to it (ie which head; cam; valve springs - should the head be ported etc).

    Any other suggestions?. I know that the 1289 block would rev better, but revving it to 8000rpm isn't a priority - A nice reliable increase in oomph! is.

    Thanks guys.
    KB


  2. #2
    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    Damien Gardner:
    hi there
    The R12 Gordini cam grind would probably be the best bet, for a road only car. Any good Cam builder should have the specs
    R12 Gordini cam grind? Obviously a cam grind from the crossflow 1565cc R12 Gordini won't work in the 1397cc engine, due to different rocker design, non cross-flow, etc, etc. Maybe you mean some other kind of Gordini grind?

    Dave
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts alan moore's Avatar
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    Contact your cam grinder and ask about Cosworth or other grinds to suit non- crossflow 1300-1500cc Ford engines.Waggots in the past did all of Colliers cams and would have a fair idea.
    French Car Care in Brisbane have single sidedraft non-crossover manifolds that work quite fine. In theory they are not correct as they do not pulse one side then the other on the carb, but they flog the Lynx manifold for flow and give a better idle. I think about $120 for the manifold.
    There is heaps to be gained by porting the standard head, not much in bigger valves because of the shrouding of the chamber. CC the chamber to work out your comp ratio as these engines have often had their head shaved many times. Your engine is a 1.4.
    Alan.
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    Guru davemcbean's Avatar
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    alan moore
    [QB]
    French Car Care in Brisbane have single sidedraft non-crossover manifolds that work quite fine. In theory they are not correct as they do not pulse one side then the other on the carb, but they flog the Lynx manifold for flow and give a better idle.QB]
    This confirms what I have read, heard and experienced. Non-cross over common plenum manifolds flow better and so are better for high revs or competition work. Cross-over manifolds are better for mid range torque. The cross-over equipped 1.4 R12 I drove had an imcredible amount of torque. It's really a matter of your driving style as to which manifold would suit you.

    Dave
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  5. #5
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    Excuse the relentless promotion again, but Rob Mekenkamp in Melbourne, phone 0417 363 665, is reproducing the single Weber/Dellorto inlet manifold and Sonic extractors. He is also getting cams ground to suit so he may be worth giving a call.

    Also there is the Craig Bradney's Monster 10S with twin Weber's on a non crossflow 1.4 head and block with extractors. There would be plenty of info in the RCCA for that motor I'm sure.

    Also Modern Motor in their Nov. or Dec. 1967 issue modified a round eye 10 with single 42DCOE Weber, and a fabricated exhaust. Also used was an R8 956cc ported and polished eight port head (no, it wouldn't suit a 1.4 block), 8G flywheel and clutch and a ground cam. It did have details of the cam so I'll dig the article out and post more info. Just with the 1108 motor, and tested on a dyno it nearly doubled the stock 10 power at the wheels. So with a 1.4 it should be easier to increase on that as well as have reliability and driveability.
    Simon
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  6. #6
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Thanks for your help guys.

    I have a twin weber manifold on the way from French Car Care in Brisbane but may still get a single from Rob as well just in case. I'll talk to Dave Collier about cam and head work and leave the bottom end standard except maybe for a lightened flywheel. If I go the full rebuild with new rings; bearings etc, I'll get it balanced, but may start off with the bottom end as it is first. I already had a set of sonic extractors from my 8 on the shelf so they should go on. I've heard people say that the standard manifold is probably better to use - I guess I'll see if the inlet manifold requires it.

    Craig kept his engine details relatively quiet but of course Colliers would know exactly what it had.
    KB


  7. #7
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    renault8&10:
    Thanks for your help guys.

    If I go the full rebuild with new rings; bearings etc, I'll get it balanced, but may start off with the bottom end as it is first.
    How many k's has your project motor got? Personally I'd prefer start with a new set of pistons and liners, the Sierra motor always seems to pop rings at 180,000+ k's. Given the work involved it would be best to go all the way first with balancing etc to get reliability and enjoy the motor rather than another rebuild in a few years time.

    Simon
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  8. #8
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    Excuse the relentless promotion again, but Rob Mekenkamp in Melbourne, phone 0417 363 665, is reproducing the single Weber/Dellorto inlet manifold and Sonic extractors. He is also getting cams ground to suit so he may be worth giving a call.

    Also there is the Craig Bradney's Monster 10S with twin Weber's on a non crossflow 1.4 head and block with extractors. There would be plenty of info in the RCCA for that motor I'm sure.

    Also Modern Motor in their Nov. or Dec. 1967 issue modified a round eye 10 with single 42DCOE Weber, and a fabricated exhaust. Also used was an R8 956cc ported and polished eight port head (no, it wouldn't suit a 1.4 block), 8G flywheel and clutch and a ground cam. It did have details of the cam so I'll dig the article out and post more info. Just with the 1108 motor, and tested on a dyno it nearly doubled the stock 10 power at the wheels. So with a 1.4 it should be easier to increase on that as well as have reliability and driveability.
    Simon
    Simon,
    I kow its a while ago. Was reading your post, Could you email me a copy of the article?? ([email protected])..
    Cheers, Chris.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10
    Craig kept his engine details relatively quiet but of course Colliers would know exactly what it had.
    Err.. not really Kevin.. I just dont read AF so much anymore. Theres a lot more crap on here than there used to be IMNSHO.

    1.4 1397
    Standard original pistons honed, new rings, new bearings.
    The cam was the largest Waggot that was possible for the use I wanted.. A6 I think.
    Block was modified to be able to take bearings for the camshaft.
    R8G type valve springs and valves with the head matched to fit.
    Head ported and polished to match the twin exhaust manifold that David had made previously but the buyer dipped out.. lucky me!
    Twin 40mm DCOEs, 30 something chokes.
    Modified linkages for the accelerator.
    Exhaust manifold is standard R12 to reduce heatsoak into the carbies that would have happened with the extractors that I have or would have had made. Rest of exhaust was done in Parramatta .. forget the same.. I just took the car there and they did the rest.
    Extra temperature and oil pressure sensor.

    Hope that helps! Oh.. as for revs.. it has revved to 7k or more - Its been off the 10S dial which goes to 7k.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by orange17
    Simon,
    I kow its a while ago. Was reading your post, Could you email me a copy of the article?? ([email protected])..
    Cheers, Chris.
    OK, I had forgotten that I was going to post the details up. Currently the item is not at hand (about 750km distant) so when I am back in town I'll post then through.

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Hi Craig,

    If you look at the dates this is an old thread which someone has resurrected recently looking for Simon's posting.

    At that time, there was not much known regarding your specs. I wasn't implying you were keeping them secret or anything. Thanks for the details though - interesting reading. I seem to remember that it had Alpine R5 pistons? - obviously wrong.

    Out of interest re the dyno article to hand recently - have you ever put it on a dyno and recorded what Hp it put out?

    It hasn't crept out of storage in a long time (to an event - July last being the last time I recall) - any trips home on the horizon?

    Best Regards
    KB

  12. #12
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    No, no Alpine pistons. I do have a spare set for my GT Turbo that I could use one day I suppose but they are reserved for a rebuild of its engine one day. The pistons I had were just standard.

    I seem to remember there might have been mods done to the block for oil flow too.

    No idea re HP. David had it on the dyno, tuning for torque, when it was fairly new to put the carbies on. It hasnt been to an event for awhile, nope... Dad just drives it regularly to give it a run.

    We might be back in August for a month, if not, then December for 2 weeks I think.
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  13. #13
    1000+ Posts HONG KONG PUGGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10
    Hi Craig,

    If you look at the dates this is an old thread which someone has resurrected recently looking for Simon's posting.

    At that time, there was not much known regarding your specs. I wasn't implying you were keeping them secret or anything. Thanks for the details though - interesting reading. I seem to remember that it had Alpine R5 pistons? - obviously wrong.

    Out of interest re the dyno article to hand recently - have you ever put it on a dyno and recorded what Hp it put out?

    It hasn't crept out of storage in a long time (to an event - July last being the last time I recall) - any trips home on the horizon?

    Best Regards
    KB
    KB....Ha, I am guilty, (the dates are a little ancient I suppose) I resurected the post, only cause i saw the bit about the article on the R10 that MM had done. I had a copy of it once.

  14. #14
    Tadpole
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    Default Smokin' up da Reno

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig
    No, no Alpine pistons. I do have a spare set for my GT Turbo that I could use one day I suppose but they are reserved for a rebuild of its engine one day. The pistons I had were just standard.
    Usin' dose high compression Alpine pistons in yo 5GT Turbo be a sure fire way to make it blow more smoke dan a Jamaican bar on a sultry summa evenin'

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    1000+ Posts BogMaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr T
    Usin' dose high compression Alpine pistons in yo 5GT Turbo be a sure fire way to make it blow more smoke dan a Jamaican bar on a sultry summa evenin'
    While your at it Kevin, why not hit Mecaparts for a secondhand 5 Alpine crossflow head, they have been advertising complete motors suitable for rebuilding so I guess they could supply the head, pushrods etc. and that could just about go in "la poste".

    Woo Hoo Honi ko'u 'elemu (Hawaiian)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig
    Err.. not really Kevin.. I just dont read AF so much anymore. Theres a lot more crap on here than there used to be IMNSHO.

    1.4 1397
    Standard original pistons honed, new rings, new bearings.
    Yep, Craig, I agree - we've been trying to reduce the crap quotient!

    What's honing the pistons? I haven't heard of that. (Not being a smart arse - I'm serious).

    Stuey

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Bogmaster,
    That thought had crossed my mind.

    If you look at the date of the original post (May 2002); that engine is well and truly in the R10 and running (with a single 40DCOE) and pumps out 42HP at the rear wheels (which doesn't sound a lot, but is a big improvement over std).

    All the cash and most of the time; is now being spent on the green R8; Oh, and the 1310 Mini clubman that also soaked up about 3 grand in the last 12 months.

    Too many toys - I have to ration time: the R8; the R10; the Mini; the motorbike. It's a good thing I have an understanding wife!

    cheers
    KB

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey
    Yep, Craig, I agree - we've been trying to reduce the crap quotient!

    What's honing the pistons? I haven't heard of that. (Not being a smart arse - I'm serious).

    Stuey

    Err.. late night post IIRC.. sleevs honed, pistons cleaned.
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Default 2012 Update !!

    Rather than start another thread, I thought I'd resurrect this old one with some updates.
    In my quest for more power re the Extractors wanted thread, I've had the engine modified and rebuilt by Colliers in Granville with a few tasty mods including a cosworth A6 grind camshaft.

    At present it is running a std R12 exhaust manifold; single 45DCOE on a lynx copy inlet manifold, but I'm still hoping to get a twin DCOE manifold constructed for it.

    Ran it at a dyno day today where it gave a very respectable output for the first stage of development (61.0 HP) but was just pipped by a gunky B*@$ard (Mark T - ) who got 61.8 in the white R10 he recently bought off here. So of course I'm now looking for an extra 0.9HP!

    The attached graphs show the car before (the "Kevin" graph is mine; the Denis graph is my old R8 now owned by a friend). The after is today's effort. The full results of where we fitted in with the mini's on the day is there as well.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hot R10 Engine-r10-dyno-before.jpg   Hot R10 Engine-r10-dyno-after-1.jpg   Hot R10 Engine-dynoresults29july2012v2.jpg  
    Last edited by renault8&10; 29th July 2012 at 09:01 PM.
    KB


  20. #20
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    A ha, pipped at the post by Mark's R10.....Lift your game Kev. LOL
    Regards
    CB

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    Sorry KB, I didn't mean to...looks like I paid the dyno driver JUST enough....eh eh


    Quote Originally Posted by renault8&10 View Post
    Rather than start another thread, I thought I'd resurrect this old one with some updates.
    In my quest for more power re the Extractors wanted thread, I've had the engine modified and rebuilt by Colliers in Granville with a few tasty mods including a cosworth A6 grind camshaft.

    At present it is running a std R12 exhaust manifold; single 45DCOE on a lynx copy inlet manifold, but I'm still hoping to get a twin DCOE manifold constructed for it.

    Ran it at a dyno day today where it gave a very respectable output for the first stage of development (61.0 HP) but was just pipped by a gunky B*@$ard (Mark T - ) who got 61.8 in the white R10 he recently bought off here. So of course I'm now looking for an extra 0.9HP!

    The attached graphs show the car before (the "Kevin" graph is mine; the Denis graph is my old R8 now owned by a friend). The after is today's effort. The full results of where we fitted in with the mini's on the day is there as well.

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts renault8&10's Avatar
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    Well deserved win.
    I've been researching 123 Ignitions, and found some instructions on the net www.123ignitions.nl
    It looks like you change the advance curves by using an allen key underneath the body of the unit. You may have to take it out and see what program it is set to compared to what they have available.

    They have an inbuilt LED for checking the static timing too which sounds pretty cool.
    Send me a pic of your trophy when you get a chance and I'll do a one page article for the magazine.

    KB
    KB


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    Thanks KB...don't know about well deserved! I'm taking it to Graham Russell (thanks for the intro) next Saturday, to sort out the fuel mixture problem...running waaay to rich apparently. He also knows about the 123..mentioned the alan key adjustment. You never know it may get up to a dizzying 62 or 63hp....

  24. #24
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    Trophy! He got a trophy for turning up and putting the ubiquitous R10 on a dyno. Bloody hell, some blokes get all the breaks.
    Regards
    CB

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    Has anyone ever tried a Clio engine?

    I've been looking at a 1.4 Clio engine and the bellhousing bolt pattern looks the same, starter is in the same place. Just looking at them on the floor I recon they'd come mighty close.

    1.4 litre so no engineer certificate. 16V twin cam would surely make an R10 get up and boogy
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