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Thread: Two new racecars in NZ

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Two new racecars in NZ

    Me and a friend of mine,Johan, are building ourselves each a competition car. We have got a Renault R8 each, mine a 1966 and his a 1965. Both will be powered by Gordini motors, rollcages and lightened. We are going to paint them Gordini colours and they will be "Gordini 1100 replicas" because of the single headlights. Both cars will have regos so that we can do small rallies and hillclimbs and also the Leisuretime series here in NZ. We will be joining Ross in his Dauphine and so try and strengthen the Renault numbers.

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    I have raced in South Africa but that was with a full sponsor. Now I have to pay for myself so the car will be a more detuned version. My biggest achievement there was to out qualify 2 Mustangs and beat them in both heats. That motor developed 105 hp/liter and its capacity was 1450cc. I will place a photo later of the car. (must scan one first)

    I will update the progress as we go along.
    Frans
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  2. #2
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    Sounds like fun! It will be interesting to watch the progress.

    Just interested though, how common are 8G 1100 and 1300 motors if you are going to use them competitively? I know the old Renault motors are fairly reliable, but things like not overly machined cylinder heads would be getting fairly thin. Or is it OK to use the 5 Alpine motor with the 8G replica rocker cover?

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Simon
    There is a guy in South Africa that can build them up if they do get thin. It was very cheap 4 yrs ago, about $80.00 and that included the skimming. They can be built up as much as you like. He does that for VWSA because they sell rebuilt engines but because of the ISO9000 certification, they have to be standard, so a smaller combustion chamber is not allowed.

    In the picture you will see a head that has been built up about 1 or 1.5mm.

    I have only seen the Alpine head in pictures. I am sure that they can be used. Somewhere there will be reasonable priced substitute pistons, such as Mazda ones that has a nice thin top and middle ring to take the rpm's.

    Frans
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    Gone Fishin' Ray Bell's Avatar
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    It used to be easy to find pistons like that... just get Repco's piston listing and they had all the critical dimensions on them.

    If you're happy with cast pistons, you can talk to JP Pistons in Adelaide. They would make a set for about $600, I think you'll find, but make sure of what they're making before you commit there, if possible provide them with an original piston to use as their pattern. Though I guess you're boring it out... that would make it a very heavy skirt.

    Check also the big bike piston range. Things like 600 twins might come close... and if they do Wiseco might be a good source of forged pistons at a reasonable price.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frans
    Simon
    There is a guy in South Africa that can build them up if they do get thin. It was very cheap 4 yrs ago, about $80.00 and that included the skimming.
    That's good to know, I never knew heads could be resurfaced. The head in the pic, is that a big valve head? Or is it just an illusion with the flame ports having been welded up? The valve seat on No.2 looks awfully close to the flame ports.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Simon,
    I dont know the history behind this head. These heads have normally gone through so many machine shops and welders that it is possible the guide might be scew. I had one such head before and had a blank guide made that was pressed in and then drilled to rectify the valve angle.
    Frans
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  7. #7
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    Default Well done Frans and Johan!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans
    Me and a friend of mine,Johan, are building ourselves each a competition car. We have got a Renault R8 each, mine a 1966 and his a 1965. Both will be powered by Gordini motors, rollcages and lightened. We are going to paint them Gordini colours and they will be "Gordini 1100 replicas" because of the single headlights. Both cars will have regos so that we can do small rallies and hillclimbs and also the Leisuretime series here in NZ. We will be joining Ross in his Dauphine and so try and strengthen the Renault numbers.

    I have raced in South Africa but that was with a full sponsor. Now I have to pay for myself so the car will be a more detuned version. My biggest achievement there was to out qualify 2 Mustangs and beat them in both heats. That motor developed 105 hp/liter and its capacity was 1450cc. I will place a photo later of the car. (must scan one first)

    I will update the progress as we go along.
    Frans
    Good stuff Frans, looking forward to hearing more of these cars and details of your work on the earlier car - keep the details coming

    Ken

  8. #8
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    Default Hamilton Car

    I am Johan, the other Gordini fan.
    My R8 is painted this weekend and must be reassembled before the Motorkhana on the 19 June.
    The motor is 1300 R12 with hot cam and single Sidedraught Weber,Extractor and C/R of 11:1
    Gordini motor is on its way but this is a start!
    Watch this space!
    1965 Renault R8 :
    2003 Citroen C5 v6

    I don't have a bucket list,
    but my fxxket list is a mile long

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Update on racecars

    Johan had his second outing in his car.
    The first a motorkhana and now a sprint. All went well except for spinning out twice!!! Red mist or ag.................? Well done, nobody can blame you for not trying.
    My car won't be ready soon although the bottom end of the G motor is ready and assembled.
    Frans
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  10. #10
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    Default Gordini

    Quote Originally Posted by Frans
    Johan had his second outing in his car.
    The first a motorkhana and now a sprint. All went well except for spinning out twice!!! Red mist or ag.................? Well done, nobody can blame you for not trying.
    My car won't be ready soon although the bottom end of the G motor is ready and assembled.
    Frans
    Hi Johan and Frans, Johan, your reg number seems to ring some bells in my mind, it wasn't a fawn coloured car with a white stripe at some stage was it?
    Keep it up guys. Frans, have even lighter ideas for your rear seats.
    Rhys

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Full speed ahead

    I promised some updates and here they are. Johan, Ross and myself tackled my car today and stripped it down to start the body work. The car is in an excellent condition with almost no rust.

    Having a race next weekend at Taupo and sharing Johan's car with him. Will post a story about that later.
    Frans.
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  12. #12
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Continue?

    Hi All,
    It looks to me like we have lost much more than we can think. That is in information, members and enthusiasm as well.

    This thread was well read and commented on, so I thought I will try to continue.

    As some of you will know the car was eventually completed and I had a few races and a lot of fun in the meantime. The last race at Hampton downs was really good (including some senior moments as well!! ) and I have a target. Follow the link and in the youtube clip you will see a Ford Escort painted in that burnt orange colour. Now that is the target.

    I will attach the links now and then I will tell you of my plans and what I have done this week with the engine to make it a bit quicker.

    Our next race will be the 12th December and I will see if there are any improvement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNzjEoahb6c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSHcf4Zv9P8

    http://www.groundsky.co.nz/index.php...ntrantID=15385

    The youtube sound is not so good because my camera that is mounted on the Left A-pillar cannot handle the Db and that is why the sound is distorted.

    Regards,
    Frans.
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  13. #13
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    Please keep going with the updates Frans, this is easily one of my favourite threads on here.

    Oh for some straight line speed. I'd have loved to see the look on the face of that guy in the 944T when you took back your place on the last lap.... brilliant!

  14. #14
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Default Plans.

    Well, my 1st plan is completed. I installed another set of pistons that is lighter and of a better quality than the the previous ones. Just another name brand but identical. The 1st set was made by Associate Engineering and the 2nd and better set is made by Kolbenschmidt. They are the equivalent of Mahle which is better known, I think. They are also 20% lighter.

    Because this is very old type of pistons (1966 Fiat 1500) they still have the 2mm thick rings. Now as we all know, 2mm rings will only rev safely up to 6500rpm for continious periods. Because of ring flutter, the rings will either break or lose their sealing ability. So I searched for a substitute and found a Nissan ring set that has a 1.5mm ring and the oil rings have a spacer of 0.5mm. So I used the original Fiat oil rings and the Nissan compression rings in the top 2 grooves each with a ring and a spacer from the oil ring and there I have my thinner rings. PLUS now I have Gapless rings because the spacer's gap is 180 degrees from the compression ring gap. I can now increase my rev limiter "safely" to 7500rpm. That will bring me closer to that Escort.

    To improve the sealing ability of the rings I have drilled lateral gas ports in the pistons. These are 1mm holes just above the ring grooves and helps the ignited gas to get quicker in behind the rings so that the outward sealing tension and force against the cylinder wall is achieved quicker. (that is how rings seal in any case, it is not just their own tension). This is an old trick and nothing new. The only issue is that these type of pistons are very rare and I guess very expensive as well. So 8 holes per piston was drilled by myself and no, I didn't break any drills.

    This Sunday is race day and I hope to see an improvement. The next step is to put 16TS internals into the R8 box to achieve the 3.7:1 ratio and then hopefully the Escort will be behind

    In the pictures you will see the standard Fiat piston and the modified one before I machine the valve pockets in the tops. You will also see the gas ports I have made. I forgot to take a picture of the completed piston but some where is one to show the piston dome after I finished it.

    Another thing I am going to change is to do these mods during the off season because this was to much of a rush job. I have only started the motor tonight and need to get some miles on it to re-torque the head and so on. Stupid idea that was to do this between races.

    Enough for now and I will report back.
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    1000+ Posts schlitzaugen's Avatar
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    Frans, how do you make sure you don't thin too much the piston top (when cutting the valve pockets)?

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    This is very interesting. Can't wait to hear whether it was worth it. Shame we lost all the other good stuff. I used to have it on Favourites for future reference. I should have made a copy and stored it on my computer.

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schlitzaugen View Post
    Frans, how do you make sure you don't thin too much the piston top (when cutting the valve pockets)?
    I don't. I did this since about 15 years back and all was OK until one day HarryA broke the top landing on one of his pistons and I used that piston to machine the pockets about twice the depth and then I cut it in half and found out that there was still about 3mm thickness left.

    Regards
    Frans
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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunroof View Post
    This is very interesting. Can't wait to hear whether it was worth it. Shame we lost all the other good stuff. I used to have it on Favourites for future reference. I should have made a copy and stored it on my computer.
    You are welcome to ask questions. I still have it in unwritten format.
    Regards
    Frans.
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  19. #19
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    A few consumption points as at present. I have made these calcs so that I can prepare for pads change between heats and not to overfill the fuel tank and carry excessive weight.

    Hampton Downs race track

    Disc Pads: Type: Bendix DB13
    6mm friction material when new.
    Front: 2.4mm after 16 laps. 1 lap = 2.8 km
    Rear: 0 mm after 40 laps

    Fuel consumption: 10l/10 laps = 1 x warmup lap, 1 x cooldown lap, 8 laps racing. 2.8km/l or 35.7 l/100km

    Regards
    Frans.
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts geckoeng's Avatar
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    Default The Fiat Pistons !!!

    Hi Frans,

    I have been working with the Fiat 78mm piston. Mine are Mahle and came from a set of batches for the six cylinder 2300cc. They sit down the bore 2mm but give 11cc in the combustion chamber, and with the o.5mm skim on the head will give you 11.2:1 CR. But I clean out the block in the combustion chamber for a cleaner burn, as you can see from the top of the piston. My cam being a bit milder allows me valve clearance without the need for pocketing. The modified skirts are old hot rod tricks that I first used on motorcycle motors. The Fiat side skirts need to be lifted for crank clearance, and I reduce the side (gudgeon pin) by about 0.5mm to reduce piston drag, and the grooves are for oil on the bore so the motor can run real hot before seisure. I have never had a piston pickup. The gudgeon pins are floating with steel on steel (no bush) just with a larger oil hole in the rod. This piston rod combination is 170K km since original fitment.

    Ray geckoeng
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  21. #21
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    What would the valve pcket depth be with lift from a standard G camshaft? With the turbo I'll need to do a little pocketing on the flat top pistons to just clear the valves.
    If I measured correctly it's about 2mm pockets?

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Hi TLJakes,
    The depths of the pockets vary because I mainly use them to get a "fine tune" of the compression ratio. Depending on the bore size, how much the head has been skimmed etc, that will determine the depth I cut them. My race car is running 12.5:1 CR and I made the cuts on mine 4mm on the exhaust valve and 3mm on the intakes. That is measured from when the milling bit touches the dome.
    A different head will have different depths. After I have finished the cuts I will do a dry assembly and then check the piston to valve clearance. They normally work out OK so I would guess a 3mm cut will be sufficient. Because I have my own way of adjusting the cam timing like the vernier gears on OHC motors (see the extra cover on the cam chain cover in the previous thread, "radiator to the front") I do not make use of the keyway so I cannot tell you what it should be because that changes the valve/piston clearances a lot as well.
    I treat each engine I build as an individual then I know all should be OK.
    Regards,
    Frans.
    Last edited by Frans; 13th December 2010 at 08:44 PM. Reason: additions.
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Frans's Avatar
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    Time for report back.

    We had the warmest day ever here in NZ. It felt like 48……not quite but very hot. Normally good times and lap records doesn’t happen on hot days.

    My best time was the same as before but then as I have said, it wasn’t a good move to do the engine in such a short time so I left the timing and rev limiter where they were before. My excuse is that I was running the engine in. With the same available revs I could not improve on times.

    The events turned out to be normal until the last race in the afternoon when too many close shaves happened. I hope to put it on YouTube. My brakes failed on a few occasions and the pedal went low on another few occasions and all this happened at different places and times. Bad experiences. I have discussed this with Ross and he persuaded me to go with the 16TS brakes. So I will start a.s.a.p. with milling the ally brackets out of a solid piece of High Tensile aluminium. I have discussed this with a Rep in alloys and he advised me to use 6082 unless someone can advise me on something else. I will also drain the system and start using competition brake fluid. Up to now I was running on Dot 4 and that is obviously not good enough. I must say that the original R8 brakes are doing an excellent job and the fact that they failed is my fault using cheap No Name Brand Dot 4 Fluid. By changing to the TS brakes I will only gain by having a better selection of disc pads. I hear they say it is a better all-round mod.

    Highlites: The car didn’t overheat and the engines sounds OK.

    Lowlites: Brake fail, couldn’t improve on my times, couldn’t catch that darned Escort, I had 3 near hits with other competitors, bent one rim and wheel alignment out after evasive action on the last lap of the last race.

    Regards,
    Frans
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  24. #24
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    Hi Frans Sounds as if things became quite hairy by times! Trying to use brakes and having suddenly none can become scary. I found that happening on the rear breakes of my Suzuki TL but it's due to the rear reservior being too close to the exhaust which then makes the brake fluid too hot.
    Would the 16TS brakes fit direktly onto the R8 disks? What pads do you then use on the calipers and are they still available?

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts J-man's Avatar
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    Hi Frans,

    I'm guessing you have competition pads in your 8 ? If so, where can you buy them ? Have you fitted a remote booster to yours ? I can't imagine racing my 10 with it's standard brakes - they're pretty ordinary
    cheers,

    John

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